Believe in People
Believe in People explores the realities of addiction, recovery, and stigma through conversations with those who’ve lived it.
Featuring voices from across the recovery community - individuals with lived experience, frontline professionals, public figures, and policymakers - offering unfiltered insight into the personal and societal challenges surrounding substance use.
Hosted by Matthew Butler and produced by Robbie Lawson, this award-winning series is a trusted platform for dialogue, empathy, and change.
🎙 2024 British Podcast Award Winner - Best Interview
🎙 2025 Radio Academy Award Nominee - Best Speech & Entertainment
🎙 2024 Radio Academy Award Nominee - Best New Podcast
Believe in People
72 | Emma Hardy MP: Floods, Ketamine & Community - Politics, Public Health & the Power of Unity
Emma Hardy MP joins Believe in People for the second time to discuss Hull’s triple flood threat, the rise of ketamine harm, and the cost of living’s toll on mental health. From sewage systems to social housing, she tackles some of Britain’s biggest challenges. We also talk about the need for transparency in government to rebuild public trust, the role of innovation in solving long-term challenges, and why political leadership must prioritise bringing people together over exploiting division.
Emma’s insights highlight how tackling complex problems requires both practical solutions and a shared sense of purpose. We explore why unity, community, and even “poo-powered planes” could hold the key to a better future.
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🎙️ Facilitator: Matthew Butler
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This is a Renew original recording. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award nominated and British Podcast Award winning series about all things addiction recovery and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or, as I like to say, your facilitator. Today, on Believe in People, we're diving into Ketamine Harm Reduction, rising water bills, youth drug use and the sewage systems failing our communities, with none other than Emma Hardy, mp, back for her second appearance. From mental health backlogs to climate resilience, emma speaks with urgency and honesty about real issues affecting people across the UK, especially in Hull, her own constituency, which is one of the country's most flood-prone cities. She shares powerful reflections on teaching during the 2007 floods, why public trust matters and how broken systems, from housing to healthcare, need to change. This is a conversation about what's not working, what gives hope and what it really means to rebuild trust from the ground up, with stories of inequality, infrastructure, free school meals, poo-powered planes and more. We begin today's conversation by talking about Emma's current role in government.
Speaker 2:So officially I'm the Minister for Water and. Flooding so that's my new title.
Speaker 1:So yeah, see, that's good because I just think for looking after all things flooding, water quality and clean air. Is that right.
Speaker 2:I kind of describe it I probably shouldn't describe it this way is everything wet.
Speaker 1:Everything, yeah, just everything wet.
Speaker 2:Everything wet comes under your responsibilities, If it's wet, it's probably me, because I do oceans as well.
Speaker 1:So yeah, if it's yeah. So what was the first things that you were or that you have focused on within this role?
Speaker 2:The number one issue, because the number one issue in the general public is sewage going into the rivers, lakes and seas. So that's been the thing that people have got the most angry about over the, you know, over the last few years. So that's been kind of the number one focus of what can we do to reduce that, what needs to happen with the water companies, what needs to happen with enforcement.
Speaker 2:So we're looking at tackling it from different ways getting the money in to literally rebuild it, to rebuild the pipes, upgrade the sewage treatment works, but also enforcement as well to making sure that if things aren't done properly by water companies, there's a consequence for it, because it was felt for a long time that the system was unfair, that people were getting away with things that they shouldn't be. So they're the kind of things that we've been focusing on and then being whole being here flooding is the other big issue. Because that's a huge issue for our community. We're the second most flood-prone city in the whole of the country.
Speaker 1:We're at risk of flooding from Sorry to give you an order, just having a panic attack now, just thinking about it, oh God.
Speaker 2:Sorry, sorry, don't need to stress it we're not listening, but we're at risk of flooding.
Speaker 2:We've got the sea, we've got the river and we've got surface water got the river and we've got surface water, so we've got all different three types of flooding here in the city, so it's a big priority. And then there's some of the other things I do that are really interesting. So I do international oceans, so we're looking at the international plastics treaty to try and reduce the amount of plastic going into the ocean, and then stuff on pesticides and chemicals. But the majority of my time, I would say, is number one, spent on water quality. Have we got enough water? Are our, you know, is water quality high enough that?
Speaker 1:those are the issues and what we're doing about flooding yeah, I mean, you've spoken recently about the need to make things more transparent. Um, you mentioned the sewage then. Um, why do you think honesty matters when we do talk about the environment with people?
Speaker 2:I think, I think you kind of have to be. I think there's a problem at the moment of trust in politics.
Speaker 3:There is not, no, no.
Speaker 2:And I think officially it's at the lowest rate I think it's ever been. But there's generally I say not just politics, I think institutions, authorities, anything like that there's a whole lack of trust in it. So I think the more transparent and open you are with people helps to rebuild that trust. So I give you a an example on water. So one of the things we've said is that we want to put water monitors on uh, on as much as possible on the system, and that information will be uploaded so people can log on and see it for themselves. So they might not trust me saying it's improved or it's or whatever, but they can literally go on, have a look, see them on in themselves, have a look and I think trying to be as transparent, as possible and just being as honest with people.
Speaker 2:So you know people saying levels of pollution are unacceptable which of course they are but being honest to them about, okay, how long is it going to take to fix it? What needs to be done to fix it. So in some areas of the country it's upgrading that sewage treatment works. In other areas of the country it's introducing a separate power source for that treatment. You know whatever the answer is, but just telling people. Yeah, I find people are reasonable if you explain and you tell them. The problem we've got is because everything's through social media or sound bites or clips.
Speaker 1:Having that time to sort of explain something to somebody isn't always available yeah, and I think people really do take that really short snippet of information and then make an entire judgment based on, like you said, with social media, a 30 second reel or something, and not I'm not saying everybody needs to do research to the far end of it, of everything, but people are making decisions based on very small amounts of information and I think transparency, as you said, is probably key. Um, I think for me as well, like I, I never mind being told no, but I like I like an explanation as to as to why that no is, and that's been me since I was a child, I think. You know I never cared. If my dad can I have that no, but if there's a reason, yeah, I think it's one of my biggest gripes is just no. Well, why? Just because and I think this is what when you're saying there about that transparency and that information being available to people, that makes sense to me yeah, and I think being so one of the thing.
Speaker 2:Another thing that's caused some concern is we recently, or the environment agency, we recently produced something called NAFTA 2. And you're going to ask me what NAFTA 2 stands for, and I can never remember what NAFTA 2 stands for.
Speaker 3:I wasn't actually going to put you on the spot.
Speaker 2:NAFTA 2 stands for, but it's basically assessing flood risk in the country, and so now you can put your postcode in and it can tell you what's your level of flood risk in your individual street I and it can tell you what's your level of flood risk in your individual street.
Speaker 2:I can feel the anxiety just building up again like no, sorry, but I think having that transparency is really important.
Speaker 2:So, if people know and understand so there was some misreporting of, oh, the flood risk has really increased it's like, well, the flood risk hasn't increased, the flood risk was always there, but now you know about it, okay, yeah, so it's being honest with people and having that transparency about what the risks are, where they are and what kind of risks you know that you have and I think, as you say that, give me, give people more information. Now I have a small bugbear about when I did an interview recently and I won't mention who recorded it or who put it out there and did it, but I did about a 10 minute interview on drought and what we can do to prevent drought and you know talking about reducing leakage from pipes, water companies reducing leakage, building more reservoirs, all of this stuff I went through and I also said in that interview you know we could have shorter showers and the only thing that was reported from that entire interview was emma hardy says have shorter showers and I was so annoyed.
Speaker 1:This is it, though it's it's trying to, I suppose I saw I saw something before and it's around uh, information and it's like people don't necessarily want to be right anymore, they just want to be first. So, with with that saying in my hand, I think everything that you've said they've been really valid. But what is it that gets the attention? And it's that very small part and then the rest of it is void. And again, my annoyances of social media is when people will, um, comment based on the title of something, but when you actually click on the link and you read through it thoroughly, you go like all the all the comments are invalid because you've just taken again that short snippet of information, as opposed to the whole piece that's actually and it's available to you.
Speaker 1:It's just the you've chose ignorance, you chose not to click on the link, so you've probably read that title. Haven't read anything else that's been said, and just that very small part of information there it's, it's difficult, I, I, it's.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a lot.
Speaker 2:I feel like there's lots of tension at the moment in society and, as I say, biggest mistrust, not just mistress of politicians, but mistrust of the justice system, mistrust with the police, and there's a whole feeling of of people mistrusting, I feel, institutions you might have had, uh, you know more faith in how, and don't know how we get that back. But I think it has to be partly through openness, trying to be transparent, trying to give people an honest answer and, if you can't explain something, being able to say I'm really sorry, I can't. I can't explain that at the moment, but, you know, like trying to be as open with people as possible and then I hope, then you rebuild, rebuild that trust, because I think that's where we need to be yeah, it's so hard, as I just saying, with the dissemination of media, though, and the way it is like it is people just taking small amounts of information.
Speaker 1:Then people are putting the trust in in those people that are reporting and I don't think journalists realize what a big responsibility they have do you know what?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it's a. It's probably one of the most, one of the jobs that come with more responsibility than people will ever, you know, think or give it credit for. But it's not. I know what I'm trying to say. I just don't think they, they you know with, as the spiderman film once said, with great power comes great responsibility, you know, and it kind of is that, I think, if the people in the media do have a great power and I don't think they use that responsibility wisely. But going back to, obviously, the local uh situations I mean talking about flooding and flood risks do you know we have a long memory, I suppose, here in hull, when it comes to flooding and I suppose how has that shaped the work?
Speaker 1:um, how has that shaped the way you think about community protection, especially with, you know, our coast, as you said, being under pressure, because I remember those 2007 floods?
Speaker 1:yeah, I remember I was on long island, there was a guy going down the street in like a little canoe and someone not long behind him in a rubber dinghy and I'm just like what is going on? Because I'd never experienced a uh, obviously a flood before. And it's interesting you say about Hull being the second most floodplain city, because you know, other than other than that 2007 stint.
Speaker 1:You know, we haven't experienced it. I felt like Cumbria was getting it every every couple of months at one point. It seems to always be on the news. So yeah, so I suppose, how, how was that shaped the way that you think, then?
Speaker 2:well, I mean now how you know. I think a lot of people remember that quite vividly. So I was teaching at the time teaching in willoughby primary and the water came into the classroom oh, wow yeah, and I was teaching six and seven years. I used to teach infants and them saying like mrs hardy there's water in the classroom.
Speaker 2:And being like oh yes, there is, let's not worry, let's just move into the. And we had to all move into the hall and call the parents. The parents come and collect the children. And then we set off to go home as the school just filled up with water and we couldn't drive home, so I walked from Willoughby to Hessel back through, waded through the water to get back to my house, to Hessel back through, waded through the water to get back to my house and I was really lucky because mine's just slightly on that slope that we escaped it.
Speaker 2:But, the other end of the street didn't, so we just missed out on home. But for the school it was out for months, but it was something I've always been really interested in. I mean, climate change is real and it's amazing, isn't it, that we have to restate the fact that climate change is real Climate change is real, everyone and we are going to see more flood events. I mean we're seeing wetter winters, we're seeing drier summers, you know we're seeing our climate changing and I think it's how do we prepare for that change?
Speaker 2:And there's been a lot since 2007,. To be fair, we've got lots more flood defences and we see them working the tidal barrier but also the big lagoons out by Willoughby and around the city. So we've had a lot done. But I think it's also about us thinking about being prepared for it and what we can do as individuals. And I find one of the things I find really sad is I go out and I talk to talk to people who've been flooded unfortunately, because it happens regularly and where the water's just gone into their property, and people understanding okay, you can't do much about it if you're a meter under or three feet and there's nothing you can do, but there are things you can do if you're just on the edge of it, you know, to try and protect your property and and making that greater awareness of things, Because there's so much we can do in terms of big schemes, as I say, the tidal barrier and lagoons and things like that.
Speaker 2:But there's also like do you have a plan? Do you know where your medication is in the event of a flood? Do you know who's vulnerable on? Your street and it sounds really depressing to be thinking about being prepared for an emergency, but kind of like do you remember at at school, did you ever do your fire plan?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah I think I want to try and get out to people that you need a flood plan as well yeah so you know what to do in the event of a fire. Do you know what to do in the event of a flood? But it's a difficult message because people don't want to be worried.
Speaker 1:Well, this is it. I think you know again, I'm probably very guilty of this, but you talk about being the second highest risk, the ignorance that I like to kind of live in you know, just for the sake of my mental health really.
Speaker 1:I think, because I live not too far from holding a strain and there's times when I walk my dog and the water's looking a bit high and I'm looking, going God, if that come up, do you know. But I mean, I said this at the conversation with my dad. I said look, I've lived in Hull for as long as I can remember. He said I don't even think when we had the 2007 floods that that necessarily, you know, came over.
Speaker 1:I can't remember if it did happen or not, but he was like you're obviously you've got to pay a premium because you live in x amount of meters of of a body of water and things like that. So, yeah, I suppose for me there is this. When we're getting a lot of rain or when I do see that water coming up, there is the anxiety, thinking, oh god, because again it's the despair. In 2007, the displacement and people was living in caravans, in like on the front gardens and things like that was just a. I think that's what kind of fills me in, especially having a child as well now you know, and a family Back in 2007, I was 16.
Speaker 1:You know, I only had myself to really look out for, whereas there now having responsibility for people. And even what you just said then was interesting. Because even if you don't have responsibility for people directly, as you just said, what about? Because even if you don't have responsibility for people directly, as you just said?
Speaker 2:what about like?
Speaker 1:elderly neighbors and and people that you would maybe need to step in and try and care for as well, so it's an interesting way of looking at it. You recently visited a new reservoir that's also open to the public, and it's not just pipes and pumps, it's a. It's a shared space, so do you think people do feel more connected to climate solutions when they are a part of them as well?
Speaker 2:you talked about transparency yeah, and I think you know you can make green spaces and you know people feel. We know people feel better when they're amongst nature, but people feel better when they're amongst you know water environments as well.
Speaker 2:It's so good for your mental health so yes, we want to build reservoirs because we want to make sure we're collecting the water when it rains, so we've got it when it's dry. It's that simple. But also these can be beautiful spaces for people to go and walk, you know, walk their dogs and enjoy it, obviously safely.
Speaker 3:I should stress, reservoir safely and then, of course, but you know, walk their dogs and enjoy, obviously safely, I should stress, reservoir safely but you know these can be really good community spaces too.
Speaker 2:And in Hull we've started to see some of our blue-green infrastructure, some of our aqua greens popping up around and you know these can be really nice spaces for nature. Because I'm really keen on. You know sometimes you've got to build a big concrete wall, you've just got to, but actually keen on you know sometimes you've got to build a big concrete wall, you've just got to, but actually for a lot of surface water flooding you can have something more beautiful, like more of a wetland area with planting and nature and things like that. That's a nice space. There's a lovely one out by. Oh gosh, now I'm going to get the wrong place. Is it up by orchard park when you was it?
Speaker 1:brands home. I know what you mean.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was there not so long ago actually, yeah, and that is just looks like lovely fields that you can go all walking, but actually that's been designed to be an area that can flood.
Speaker 1:I had no idea it was there to be fair. I somehow stumbled across and I was having a walk. I was like I've lived here for all my life and I had no idea that this place was here.
Speaker 2:And that's a gorgeous example of something that protects the area, protects all the houses, but it's, most of the time, just looks like a lovely space to go and have a wander and walk your dog yeah, I'll put something on instagram.
Speaker 1:And a mate messaged me going where's that? That looks lovely. I replied brands over, it's like what it is it's really nice around here, so yeah, yeah, obviously we're a addiction recovery and uh podcast that you know tries to challenge stigma. So, looking towards drug use, changing drug use, in particular ketamine, because we have seen ketamine harm rising fast, especially among young people. As an mp, is this something that is on your radar at all?
Speaker 2:it's been raised with me by young people. I haven't had it raised, you know, through official channels, but it's been raised by young people. In fact, my daughter mentioned to me about a festival she went to and seeing a number of people who seem to be under the influence and it's becoming more common. So it's more something that I've heard young people talking about than I've had conversations with through through official channels. And I think what's really concerning me is I don't think there's enough understanding out there about how much damage this actually does, because when you're young you think you're going to live forever and be healthy forever. Of course you do, yeah, and you know any young person's assessment of risk is is not looking at my own life.
Speaker 3:It's diabolical.
Speaker 1:What I didn't consider to be a risk, but no well, I mean even.
Speaker 2:You know I mean down. It sounds as daft, as you know, when you're younger and you'll go on all the awful rides at hall fair and now I'm like I go to hall fair and I think, oh, I don't trust that.
Speaker 1:How can I trust a ride that's been put up in less than 24 hours?
Speaker 2:I know, I'm exactly the same when I'm just walking. Oh no, I'll just. I'll just get my chips from. That's what I'm like now. Soak up the atmosphere, go on nothing.
Speaker 2:But you know this risk assessment I don't think's there, and I I worry a bit that. I mean, it's just been upgraded, hasn't it? From a class c to a class b, but I I'm a bit worried that we're a bit behind the curve and that young people are starting to use this more and there's not enough information out there to explain that this is really quite damaging and this can seriously damage you long term. And I'm not sure there's enough awareness, is my feeling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the scary thing is, as it's been pointed out to me, you know, many times now is the irreversible damage that it can do. And there's people, you know, in their early 20s with like stoma bags attached to themselves and this is based on, you know, ketamine use that has absolutely just rotted away their insides and that isn't something that you know. Oh, there's a fix for that. It's now.
Speaker 2:that's you you know, for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:You, you have that and I think that's the scary thing is how quickly it's damaging people. Because I mean, we're a service that, whilst we do not look at all substances, um I always say there isn't an emphasis on opiate and crack use and with that, um one of the risks that associated with uh hepatitis c, blood-borne viruses yeah but some of those blood-borne viruses aren't things that are going to damage that individual until maybe 20, 30 years down the line it's you know, very slow acting killer, um, whereas with ketamine it's no, the damage is there and it's almost instant as well, and I think that's the the this you know thing that we we do find scary.
Speaker 1:But I suppose the thing with with the substance in particular, it's not just about the addiction to the substance but looking at young people that are using it, and I'm I know you. When you said you was a teacher, you was very much with with young, young people but what was your previous uh job title in in government?
Speaker 2:was shadow. Yeah, so I was. So I was shadow minister for flooding and then, before that, shadow minister for universities okay, so maybe some experience with with that particular group as well.
Speaker 1:But yeah, that youth mental health and school pressure, education pressure and the long waiting lists that are there for help. Do you think right now that systems are set up to deal with the bigger picture of ketamine use and the damage that it is causing?
Speaker 2:my, my instinct is that there's there isn't enough awareness of how serious it is and the damage it can do. Um, and I feel like you know, and I, you know, probably as guilty of of this as anyone you're not, I mean, it's only that I've got a teenage daughter who's really that's why you knowledge of it saying something to me about it.
Speaker 2:Otherwise, you know, I'd probably have no knowledge, uh, or very little knowledge of, of it being a growing problem, and I think there is that difficulty of making sure that, I suppose, schools, colleges and people who have direct contact with young people have enough knowledge and information to, to share, you know, to share that out and let people know the damage, damage that's happening and, um, and I don't know if that's something I don't know, uh, whether when you do that work with the, yeah, I mean it's funny enough, it's things that it's been pointing out to us.
Speaker 1:You know we've got a pathway now don't we call it our non-ocu, which is the non-opiate and crack use, and that's for people who are struggling with cocaine addiction. Maybe you know problems with cannabis, ketamine. Again, I think it goes to the the. I say arrogance I don't mean it in such a negative way, but the arrogance of young people are the arrogance of youth, as we've just said. You know that lack of risk.
Speaker 1:I don't think enough people are necessarily engaging with it or engaging with the support, and I don't think they will until it's too late and and that's the reality of it. But, as we've said, you know we're seeing young people having these medical treatments for something that, realistically, you know could have been prevented and I suppose, like always, it's exploring the why behind that, what's going on for them in their life where they are turning to ketamine. But I think it is quite normal for young people to dabble in substance misuse.
Speaker 2:You said about your daughter at the festival not that she was not I'm not saying she was dabbling, but your daughter at the festival seeing people are dabbling.
Speaker 1:Of course you know a lot of them probably don't uh have childhood traumas or it's just that experimentational, recreational phase of their life, that's that's, you know, using substances, but again, um, that's why we're probably not necessarily getting them through the door. Is is because of that and that reason I suppose really so. Um, yeah, I guess it's. It's looking at are we adapting fast enough? And um, or do you think we're still playing catch up really with it?
Speaker 2:I think we could do more to be more up to date with with what's happening, and I tend to rely on you guys. Um, or the hospital or the police have been people that sort of generally tell me about this is a problem, we've got you know. So when we had an issue with um, I think there was some, uh, illegal sales or some particular bad batch of heroin was it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. In october last year we had a lot yeah, yeah that was having seen.
Speaker 2:So I tend to rely on people sort of letting me know, and then it's how do you share that information out? But I think, maybe I think you're right I think there could be more of a a joint, more of a systematic way of doing it.
Speaker 2:So that we can make sure, because I'm sure, if you know some of the people using ketamine recreationally, if you said, actually, do you know, you could end up with a stoma bag. That would probably put them off taking it. You know, and I, but they need to be. People need to be aware of the risks and I'm not sure they are yet yeah, no, I completely agree with that.
Speaker 1:It is about getting another space, and obviously with us, as, as this drug and alcohol treatment service, we primarily work with, or we do work with, people that are over 18. So yeah, we are making improvements in our 18 to 25 year old pathway and, of course, the pathways between refresh, which is the local young people service, but again, it's almost like you feel like you're racing against the clock a little bit, because you just don't have the time really to try and get this under control.
Speaker 2:That's the thing. I think that's exactly it as well. I mean, everybody's doing. You know the colleges are doing their day job. You guys are doing your work. You know everyone's. It's difficult, isn't it, to make it a priority, but I think my feeling is if I went back and said to my daughter do you know that people who use ketamine could end up with? She'd be like what.
Speaker 1:I bet there isn't, I bet there isn't, I bet there isn't that knowledge I think there's a campaign that someone mentioned recently called a bag for life, which I really liked the title because we all know what a bag for life means but, it's a play on that and I suppose it is sharing those stories. But again, I mean, this is a campaign I've mentioned twice already and I don't think I've ever without going and looking for it.
Speaker 1:I don't think I've ever seen it pop up anywhere so I don't think you know, more awareness could be made around it, because again, I think it just the title of it I think sounds like a great campaign.
Speaker 1:How it looks in practice I suppose is another thing, um, I suppose we would you know, obviously, for us on this, this series, we talk a lot about stigma. I guess, in your view, how do we move the conversation forward? So it's less about um punishment and it's more about support and healing, because I do think I mean you mentioned about it moving from a class c to a class b drug. For me, all that system is is well, if you found in possession of it, you get a harsher sentence.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's necessarily going to do anything in some way you know I get there's more to it than that, of course, but yeah, I suppose how do we move it from that to?
Speaker 2:yeah, it isn't. Yeah, because my it's interesting perception, my perception was it tells you it's more serious yeah, okay, so I think so. I I believe the intention is to say this is more serious, because almost like you know it's not a classy to say. This is more serious because, almost like you know, it's not a class C, this is more serious it's a class B. But it's interesting how different things can be seen.
Speaker 1:I like how we both interpreted that very differently. Yeah, completely, but it's interesting that. But go on, continue, yeah no, and I think it's.
Speaker 2:How do we so? I think it's again. It goes back to almost what we were saying about water, wasn't it? But transparency, honesty, trying to restore trust, trying to get trusted people to give the right information, and understanding in the way that we have that the same things can be interpreted in two different ways. So how do we communicate more effectively, sort of you know the reason why things are happening and the reason why things are being things are being done, and I think, all of that needs to work, doesn't?
Speaker 2:it needs to come together so that it's not just you know we want to punish you more, but it's. We want to tell you that this is a serious, more serious than you then was first acknowledged yeah.
Speaker 1:No, I don't completely agree with that. I do again. That's really interesting and different takes and that's probably down to maybe the professions that we're working as well, and how that looks.
Speaker 1:But, um, yeah, when we last heard on this podcast, I feel like we was at, I say, the height of the cost of living crisis. I mean, it was everywhere plastered in the news, wasn't it, I suppose. So, looking at the cost of living, um mental health and inequality, I suppose, uh, something that we're hearing more about is people who have done the work of recovery but then get knocked back by things like housing, stress or not having enough to live on.
Speaker 1:What's your take on how the cost of living crisis is affecting people's mental health?
Speaker 2:Oh, it's massive. It's absolutely huge. I mean there are some areas where I think in the past year we've made a lot of progress. So families I think have got it's absolutely huge. I mean. I mean there are some areas where I think in the past year we've made a lot of progress, so families I think have got it's improved a lot. So the free breakfast clubs I think is helping, but that's only. We're going to do every single school in the constituency but at the moment we've only got it, I think in two in the constituency, changing the rules around free school meals. So now anyone who gets means-tested benefits can get free school meals for their children. So I think there's quite a bit around uh, around children and trying to, and there's the child poverty task force I know is going to announce later. So there is some things are starting to come through there, I think, helping children.
Speaker 2:But that's not painting a massively rosy picture, but I think there's some improvement and I think there's some improvement with uh, as, again, people who are already in the system on these tested benefits of the warm homes grant that people are going to get this winter as well and so there's there's some improvement around there, but at the same time, everyone's bills are going up. Yeah, so even though we're, you know, putting money into free school meals, supporting more people, uh, with free breakfast clubs and the warm homes, at the same time, you know, bills are continuing to rise. I mean, I know, for example, water.
Speaker 1:Uh, water bills have just risen for people by 30 30 some percent went up this year and I was thinking, you know, I think, going back to what you said about it's quite frustrating, you know, when you talked about the way sewage was being pumped into things and it's like why am I paying more? And obviously it all ties into all of that, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:it does, and I think it's that feeling that people have at the moment, that the system, that they feel it's unfair and not working for them.
Speaker 1:I think it is when you see all this sewage has been pumped into water. Well, my water bill's gone up and people feel angry about it. And you get it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah completely get it.
Speaker 2:I mean one thing I would say just on no, no gone it is is if people um, if they look at water meters actually a lot of people. General rule is if you've got more people living in your house than bedrooms, you're probably better without a meter you've got fewer people living in your house than bedrooms, then you're probably going to save money under water meter.
Speaker 3:That's that's my just short. Fair enough, I appreciate it short advice, but I mean it is.
Speaker 2:It's a real challenge and I think there's nothing more stressful and I've, you know when I you know before I got this job and a single parent. It's. There's nothing more stressful than worrying about money because you end up going to bed worrying about money, waking up worrying about money, and it's incredibly.
Speaker 2:And then it only takes one thing to go wrong, like one thing to break and then you're suddenly in a really, you know, bad situation and people, I think, in the city are struggling. I think they're really struggling and so we've done some things, but I think we need you know there's more that really need to do. Minimum wage increase really helped all so that's really helped, all because we had so many people on the minimum wage but, even so, being on the minimum wage isn't no, isn't great.
Speaker 2:So I think there's I think there's a lot more, you know a lot more things that we need to be looking at of how we can help people. But I mean, when I talked a lot of people I speak to, it's as you say, it's the cost of housing it's the cost of the utility bills. It's things like that that really impacting, and I think so, yeah, so I think things, I think things have eased off a little bit, but we're certainly not in, do you?
Speaker 1:think as well, because, I mean, we we went to london, uh, to speak to a podcast participant, um, maybe about a year or so ago, and she couldn't believe the price that we pay for things like housing, and I mean for what we can get for x amount of money she said, like you, you wouldn't even get like a tiny bed sit in london.
Speaker 1:So I suppose you know when. Yes, we've got it, we've got it hard. The cost of living is affecting everybody. But I'm just thinking then about there must be a north south divide there somewhere, with the cost of things down south to what it is up north. Have you experienced that?
Speaker 2:yourself. Oh gosh. Well when, if you go to a pub and pay nine pounds for a pint nine pounds a pint. I went with my James, who's from East Hull, and he was outraged. He was just disgusted. I can imagine.
Speaker 1:I gave some money for something last time I was in London and they were all waiting for my change. And then he was waiting for more money off me.
Speaker 3:I was like what is going on down here, you know, absolutely bizarre.
Speaker 2:I mean you're right. I mean housing is cheaper here. But then as I say, we've got more people on, you know, minimum wage incomes and we've got, you know, if you look at the annual salary in our area, it's lower. So it's all kind of relative so yes, people, things might be a bit cheaper than people don't get paid as much. So there's two ways of sort of looking at it. But I think you know I mean prices in London are as you say. I don't know how anyone affords to live in them.
Speaker 1:I was speaking to a homeless guy last time I was in London and he asked for. He said, oh, can you help me? He said I'm not asking for money. He said I just need a few essentials. He said I need some toothbrush, a toothbrush. And I thought, based on the job I do, I thought it'd be hypocritical for me to say no, absolutely not. So I was like, yeah, come on. So we went in the shop and just grabbing a few of these him up to. I'm thinking it's going to cost me around 10 quid. I think I'm spending like 22 quid or something, just on, like what I would have considered the essentials you know.
Speaker 1:So even things like that, again, just more money. I'm like, how is this, how is this north, south deval so so big? Do you know?
Speaker 2:no, I think, yeah, I mean you are, you are right and and so in that way it is, you know it is sort of cheaper here, but I still, you know, people are yeah, people, I think finding it finding it tough and we need, we need more social housing. Yeah, it's what I feel we need and we are, we're gonna, we're gonna do some. We're gonna put money in and we're gonna build some, but obviously they're not.
Speaker 2:That takes a while to to do and exactly yeah, but that is to me, something we need to be seriously looking at. We haven't got the social housing stock that we used to as a city, because people have have bought them and then they haven't been replaced.
Speaker 1:It's pretty much yeah because I was in the middle of a debate, uh, not so long ago, where I think, um, someone I know has been in their house for 20 years and therefore they can buy it from the council, which sounds great. But then the argument there was well, that's not fair because that's taking a house away from social housing and therefore, you know and I was like I can see both sides of this here You've lived in the house for 20 years.
Speaker 2:Therefore, You've paid a lot of.
Speaker 1:You've paid a lot of money, you know there be some incentive to to buy it with the discount that they can get and stuff. But yeah, the opposite is well, that house isn't getting replaced and if it is, it's not immediate, is it so?
Speaker 2:yeah, the social housing, and now you see lots of social housing that's now private rented owned yeah it's on the same street, you'll walk along and it's, you've got some council ones.
Speaker 1:And then you can always tell by the roofs, yeah, I said this yeah, do you know, sometimes when I go in an area, it's like you've had your roof replaced.
Speaker 2:So I would like um upon each other, yeah there was the.
Speaker 1:I think they'd almost not like the cladding as such. But the exterior of the house, yeah, some of them didn't have it and some of them did, so you can see which and, weirdly enough, the house was bought and that looks worse than the social housing because they to be fair on the council or any council they'll invest in their own housing stock and you can.
Speaker 2:You can walk along and see which ones have bought and ended up in private landlords because they're not maintained to the same standard. They don't have the new roof, they don't have the external cladding. So we've tried to sort of address this. There should be more equality in rented accommodation between private and between social. There needs to be. You should have the same, the same standards because, but I mean, that's something you can do, but ultimately we need to build more council homes, well, more social housing.
Speaker 1:Do you think the um, do you think the benefit system does support people who are in recovery from substance misuse, or does it sometimes make things seem harder?
Speaker 2:I you know I mean. Lots of people come for help with the benefit system. We tend to sort of, to be honest, put them in touch with systems advice who are expert on it, because it's incredibly difficult to navigate.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think the system is really hard to work out, whether you're entitled to this or to that, or I think it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a really difficult. I mean, yes, you get those websites like turn to us where you can put details in and sort of you know, see what you might be entitled to, but I think it's an incredibly complex system and the people we get coming to us tend to be people trying to navigate it for the first time. So people who you know might have lost their job or become too unwell to work or you know something like that and they have no idea. Or people who are elderly and have no idea that there is support out there because they've never tried to navigate the system and I think it is his are really complicated I think it's complicated for anybody who's not used to it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think if you're someone who I mean I often find with um especially, you know, when we talk about opiate recovery it's often not always by any means, but often an aging population. People are in their maybe later 40s, early 50s and they're not great with computers. So when you're trying to navigate like you're in recovery now, and I think this is the weird thing.
Speaker 1:Some people think right, I'm off the drugs, everything will be perfect now, life will work out for me, everything's good but, then you met with the reality of all this stuff that you used to just bury your head in the sand with now it's all there and it's right in front of your face and trying to navigate. As you said, you know a better off system. Do you know online?
Speaker 1:it's like I don't know computers. So, yeah, I guess it can be quite difficult for people to navigate. And sometimes, when it is too difficult, I think what do people do? They go back to the old coping mechanisms and therefore go back to using substances, because it was, in a way. Do you know what I mean? I mentioned earlier about the flood risk. You know the anxiety that.
Speaker 3:I was given.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's better to kind of live in ignorance of something than to know everything. And I think in some way, when people do achieve recovery, uh, and they are trying to really navigate the benefit system, or if they've got debts, council taxes it does end up just becoming so overwhelming that it is a case of burying their heads in the sand a little bit and going back to old habits, but I mean, I do think there are things out there, yeah you know, services that can support with that so yeah, I mean there are.
Speaker 2:It's just I mean, if emily works for me, she always tells me off for saying this, because I say it all the time, but you don't know what.
Speaker 1:You don't know yes, you don't know what you don't know, there is a question do you find, as an mp, people just expect you to, because I'm doing it now with some questions, expecting you to know everything about everything. Yeah, that must be difficult.
Speaker 2:It is, but I think it's better to just be honest and say well, this is what I know and there's other things I don't know, but it's that kind of you can't be aware of something if you're not aware. So I know because and I've mentioned on here, but someone might not even know the Citizens Advice Bureau exists or that they offer benefit advice. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:So it's that whole thing of you don't know, what you don't know, and it's quite difficult to get that you know, get that information about. Okay, where can you go for support? Where can you go for help? What is available Because there are. You know, there are lots of different.
Speaker 1:There are charities, there are organisations there's lots of different help help out there, but if you don't know they exist, you're not going to use them, are you exactly? No, I get that completely. Uh, no, thank you. Thank you, I met um. Recovery isn't just something again that people necessarily do on their own, it happens in. I mean, I always say the opposite of addiction isn't recovery, it's connection. I think, uh, recovery in families, it happens in friendships, it happens in communities. I suppose, looking at you as an individual person, what does recovery mean to you in a bigger social sense?
Speaker 2:I think it's that you know the famous politician who said there's no such thing as society, or allegedly said that I think it is about society and I think lots of our and maybe I sound way too, you know, too liberal and whatever, but I think the more connections we have with each other in a community, the stronger the community, the better the community, cohesion and the more we can support each other.
Speaker 2:Going back to what I said about you know flooding. You know if we're creating a flood plan. Do you know who's vulnerable on your street, who'd need help? You know that and we had a sense of that a bit during covid. I think there was that sense, wasn't there?
Speaker 1:of people looking out to check out for the neighbors and everything. Back then I I always thought there'd be a big societal shift after covid, but in a weird way it felt like we went right back to how we was in 2019 in other ways as well.
Speaker 2:But it's that opposite of, like you know, I was talking about the online, you know, the real life, you know, like communication being done online isn't real life, and so I don't know, I think there's that how do we build that sense of community again, that sense of shared? And it could be through anything, it could be through sport.
Speaker 2:It could be through interest, you know whatever it is, be through sport. It could be through interest, you know whatever it is. But how do we bring people together? Um, and I think there's a role on on all politicians especially and I won't rant too much about this to be people who seek unity rather than division, because it's easy to exploit division for political gain, it's easy to whip people up and make people start hating one another, because then you can, you know, you can get your own supporters on side and you can sort of build that division and build that support base but, I think we we have a, I'd say, a moral duty, uh, to try and actually bring people together and show people that you know actually, like with addiction, you know, there, for the grace of god, go I you know there's.
Speaker 2:There's many of these situations that will, however many paychecks away from being homeless yeah, but it's true and I think so you know how do we get, as a community, to be more understanding of each other and more um, I don't know, I haven't got the answer no how we do it, but I think there's anything we can do to try, and you know, build those, build those bridges.
Speaker 1:I think is is better for society, and so I'm very wary of anyone seeking to exploit division, because I I think it never, it never ends well obviously there is a, there is a lot of division, there is a lot of negativity, as I think we've spoken about already, but what is something that gives you hope right now, whether that be something in parliament, in your community or just in everyday life?
Speaker 2:I think, generally, when things go wrong and I see, as I say, I see this with the sadly, with the flooded communities I go and visit, when things do happen, people do pull together and you do see that, that people do pull.
Speaker 2:You know when we saw it in happen, people do pull together and you do see that that people do pull. You know when we saw it in covid, people do pull together when, when things happen, and they do look out for each other and and I think that that gives me hope and I, you know, fundamentally think that you know people are angry and they're upset at the moment and they're, they're cross, and a lot of people feel things aren't working and and they, you know, difficult with the cost of living. But I think, ultimately, people care about each other and I think that gives you hope, doesn't?
Speaker 1:it yeah, absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think things are, you know, and I would say this, but I think things are starting to get better. It might not be getting as better as quickly as people want it to, but things are starting to get better and I think as that continues and improves, then life becomes a bit easier I think that was the pressures you was kind of faced with as a political party.
Speaker 1:I think people thought you was going to be able to make massive changes overnight, didn't they? So a lot of those I mean. I remember seeing the frustration in people and the headlines I was was like what are you expecting them to do?
Speaker 2:Within a few months.
Speaker 1:I mean even down to the sewage.
Speaker 2:It's like if you want to reduce sewage going into a river. I'm going to bore you slightly now.
Speaker 3:No go on, you've got to build a storm overflow tank.
Speaker 2:So you've got to literally go in, stick a tank to hold the sewage away so it doesn't spill out into the river. To go and do that on lots of these storm overflows requires you going in there, digging a hole, putting a stank in it, so you can't do that in a few weeks.
Speaker 2:I mean that's something that you're going to have to do, but you do over a period of time. But that goes back to being honest and being transparent with people about how long it will take to fix some of these things. But I get, I completely understand everyone wants it to change immediately and people are being sold by some politicians promises of, oh, you can, you know it can happen. But I think that comes back to that honesty and trust and saying you know things are getting better. We're still working on a lot of things, there's a lot more to do and it's happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I had to say to. I remember the conversation with my dad and I said look, things are going to have to get a little bit worse before they get better. We're going to have to experience some temporary discomfort before we can experience long-term comfort. I said that's just because of the state in which the country is in right now and I think not a lot of people seem to understand that. I think they think things can happen so quickly.
Speaker 2:I mean they think things can happen so quickly. I mean some things you can immediately. I mean you can, like we've done, increase the minimum wage you can do that straight away.
Speaker 2:There are things you can do immediately and some things take a bit longer, but I think there's some, but that's just what's going to happen. But I think it's that. You know we've just got to keep going, keep working really hard, and I think it does that. You know we've just got to keep keep going, keep working, really, keep working really hard, and I think it does give you hope that you think well, like today. Uh, I've had the notification we were seven million more GP appointments that we've hit as a target in a year.
Speaker 3:I mean that's great.
Speaker 2:Yeah, of course, yeah and, but then I know whenever I put that out someone goes.
Speaker 1:I couldn't get one well, I still can't get my. You always guarantee that will be the.
Speaker 3:That's what I'm going to get as the headline and then watch the comments come flooding in.
Speaker 2:Emma says everyone can get a GB honestly.
Speaker 1:Emma, we always see you speak with such compassion and connection. I suppose my last real question for you really is what helps you stay grounded, especially when politics can get so tense? Because, again, you, you're a very lovely person. I I think I'd struggle in those confrontational, in like environments, like how, how do you keep yourself so grounded in them?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, I think I think it helps that I'm from here. I got this comment on, which did make me laugh. I'd nipped to a deli near where I live because I was out and about with one of my members of staff and she was like oh, let's go in there, they do really good brownies. Let's go get a brownie.
Speaker 3:So I was like yeah, yeah okay, go in.
Speaker 2:And then I saw the. I know this is really dirty, I'm sorry, but they were amazing black pudding, scotch eggs.
Speaker 1:That sounds amazing. I love black pudding, and I love scotch eggs.
Speaker 2:It was amazing. You know this is. I feel filthy eating this, so I was like right, brownie, black pudding, scotch egg because I'm obviously incredibly sophisticated.
Speaker 2:And then my staff member was with me and was like let's put a picture of you and I'm going to put it out, saying that you've been there. So I was like, okay, fine, fine, just put this out on social media and also put out. I had a black body, scotch. I was like come on, you could have said something else. And then one of the comments was like stop trying to be normal, you're not, stop trying to be normal. And I was like this is, this is like, and I mean we were, we did, I mean some of them we did, we did laugh at because some of them were quite funny. But it was that thing of like, what do you think I do? Like, where do you think?
Speaker 3:as if it was all staged, yeah, but I suppose I can sometimes see that, because you sometimes do see pictures where you don't think that does look staged, but no, the real it is. Who wouldn't love a black pudding scotch?
Speaker 2:egg. Well, it was just as we were walking past, and then they're like oh look, if you had a photographer.
Speaker 3:I'm like iPhone.
Speaker 2:I had as we were walking past, and then they're like oh look, if you had a photographer, I'm like iphone. But so there is still that yeah but it is. It is strange because you know, I've lived. I've lived in hessel for over 20 years now. So then then I used to get the all parachuted, all parachuted like been here 20 years. Um, so yeah, you do get a bit of that, but I think most I think most people know I'm from around here and I think that does help a bit.
Speaker 2:But you, you just, and I think the other thing is like I try and disassociate in my head. The people don't know me yeah they're angry with me because they don't like the labour party, or they don't like politicians, or they don't like labour politicians. You're gonna hit them both um, but they don't know me. You know a lot of the abuse, especially abuse that you get from someone. You look and you think you're from bradford. What you're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's nothing even to do with you directly.
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:I mean, we spoke about this briefly before, but how much attention do you actually pay to those social media comments? Is it something that really does bother you when you see it, or is it kind of just water for ducks back part of the job for you?
Speaker 2:It's quite sad to say that it does seem to just be part of it now, yeah, that you just have to accept. That's what it's, that's what it's like and, um, it was my mum. Oh, my mum, she gets really, she gets really upset with that I can imagine yeah she gets really hurt by them.
Speaker 2:And she was like I think you should leave social media. I don't think you should. And I said no, because that's what they want. I said these people just want to make it so that you'll go and and I'm not going. And I said, if you look I know it's one of the things I always look at is if you look at the number of likes 50 comments of people ranting and calling you whatever but you've got 150 people liking it because most people don't comment.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean to be fair. There's a few things that have been pointed out to me, but my general attitude is if I once said to someone in person I'm not saying it on social media and I think you know you see those comments how many of them would actually say that to you if they saw you in person? They would yeah, yeah, maybe one or two of them, but out of 50 comments, I don't think you would. Emma, we like to wrap up our podcasts with a series of questions. You, you might remember them and your answers might be different. There's no expectation for them to be the same, but what is your favourite word?
Speaker 2:what is my? Well, this is last time. I think I told you it's humongous because, of the humongous song. That's it, yeah is it still? Humongous. Humongous is a great word, isn't it?
Speaker 3:don't you think that's such? It's a fun word to describe something that's tall. Was it big it? It's a fun word To describe something that's tall. Was it big? It was humongous. It really paints a picture, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:It's such a fun. I think it's like this reminds me of. It's like a childish word, isn't it? It was humongous.
Speaker 1:I don't think I've ever used it as an adult to describe something that was really big.
Speaker 2:I need to.
Speaker 3:I need to get humong a speech. Someone has to describe Big Ben he won't.
Speaker 2:It's a great word.
Speaker 3:Least favourite word.
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know what would be my least. No. No, that would be it Don't like the word no.
Speaker 1:Something that excites you.
Speaker 2:What kind of a oh gosh? What excites me? I can get really geeky.
Speaker 3:Be as geeky as you want to be.
Speaker 2:I do get quite when it's going to sound so sad, but I get really interested in engineering things. I'm not an engineer by background.
Speaker 1:Well, you seem quite knowledgeable when you're talking about all this sewage stuff.
Speaker 2:I know, but I get really interested and then I'll tell my James Barton and he was just like that's really boring.
Speaker 1:Did you know that stuff before the job, or is this stuff that you've learned because of the job?
Speaker 2:Yeah, from because of the job. So, okay, something that gets. I think it's quite exciting. Poo-powered planes Okay, so stay with me on this. So this is the fact that, right, you've got water companies now turning human waste from sewage treatment into methane, which can be turned into sustainable aviation fuel. So we are going to be powering planes with our poo, and I think that is really exciting.
Speaker 3:I can see how excited you are. It is.
Speaker 2:It gets really exciting and I think that's really fun Because we're going to do one third of sustaining aviation fuel.
Speaker 3:This is something we're never ever going to run out of. I get that and I think that's really fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because we're going to do one third of sustaining the aviation field. This is something we're never, ever going to run out of. I get that and I think that's quite exciting.
Speaker 1:Something that doesn't excite you.
Speaker 2:Oh, something that doesn't excite me. Yeah, I think it's when you have to do lots of reading of very, very long reports which are very informative, and you have to do it.
Speaker 1:And it feels a bit like homework. Yeah, I get that Sound or noise, do you love?
Speaker 2:When we get to the like my cat purring.
Speaker 1:That was it. If you remember, do you.
Speaker 2:I remember because it is one of my favourite sounds, but I think the other one because it just because I've heard it more recently and I thought that was really fun when little kids giggle. Yeah the giggle of a little child when they're like two or three, and they really giggle and you can't not make you happy.
Speaker 1:I have it now with my three-year-old daughter. I was walking to work the other day and I just felt myself getting really sad, thinking I won't get them giggles. It's not forever and it just bothers me. Some of the best things that happen in my life are just not forever.
Speaker 2:But it's just that, isn't it?
Speaker 3:It's when they're little and they really giggle, especially if it's something just so random that makes them giggle it's the stupidest thing that makes them giggle. I absolutely love it.
Speaker 2:You have to tell her about poo power planes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I will. She'll just be like what.
Speaker 1:What sound or noise do you hate? Oh god, anything like drilling or anything. Oh dentist drill, oh god yeah, because it just goes right up there. Yeah, what profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
Speaker 2:well, I did teaching. I don't know something else with, uh, yeah, something else with young people. I don't know quite what but, maybe something else in that sort of area, or like retrain as an engineer.
Speaker 3:No, I couldn't retrain as an engineer? Yeah, you could. The passion's there for it.
Speaker 2:But it is like super interesting when you find out about. I'm quite interested in how things work. And it is. I do think that's really fun.
Speaker 1:What profession would you not like to do?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but probably something.
Speaker 3:Oh well, now, I Now.
Speaker 2:I've seen the people that go out and dig out the fatbergs.
Speaker 3:Oh, I've heard about the fatbergs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the fatbergs in the sewage that would be a tough job Walking the sewage pipes of London.
Speaker 1:I'm pretty sure Radio 1 did a show at the fatberg once a fatberg in London. After one of the guests had rang in, they took all the equipment and did a radio show at the Fatberg. It was just called the Fatberg as if there was only one of them in the entire.
Speaker 2:London. That's a tough job.
Speaker 1:And then, lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearly Gates?
Speaker 2:Well, hopefully welcome and maybe settle with um welcome and I don't know. I'd like to think that. You know.
Speaker 1:If nothing else, people think I did my best thank you, emma, for joining me on believing people thanks for having me and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, we love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode, and leaving a review will help us reach more people and continue challenging stigma around addiction and recovery. For additional resources, insights and updates, explore the links in this episode description and to learn more about our mission and hear more incredible stories.
