.png)
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#60 - Matthew Butler: Believe in People Collaboration, Amy Goldberg, Caitlin Morrison, Stigma, Rock Bottom Threshold & The Matthew Perry Foundation
🎙️ Believe in People: A Special Collaboration Episode 🌟
In this special transatlantic collaboration, Amy Goldberg, host of Believe in People America, welcomes Matt Butler, host of the UK’s Believe in People podcast, into the guest seat for a heartfelt discussion on recovery, resilience, and belief in change.
Joining them as today’s special guest host is Caitlin Morrison, a dedicated advocate and sister of the late Matthew Perry, who shares powerful insights into the ongoing mission of the Matthew Perry Foundation honouring her brother’s legacy by sharing how his story continues to inspire and drive change.
The episode explores the power of personal narratives in breaking stigma and promoting understanding. Matt reflects on his journey from administrative roles in substance misuse services to becoming a passionate advocate for recovery.
Learn more about the hosts and their work:
- Believe in People America by Amy Goldberg: Push Back Productions | Instagram
- Caitlin Morrison and the Matthew Perry Foundation: Foundation Website | LinkedIn
- Believe in People: Spotify | YouTube
Click here to text our host, Matt, directly!
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma.
For our full back catalogue you can visit our website ⬇️
www.believeinpeoplepodcast.com
If you or someone you know is struggling then this series can help.
You can see selected clips from the series on social media: @CGLHull ⬇️
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram
We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.
This is a Renew Original Recording. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma. Today's episode is a little different. While I'm usually your host, or, as I like to say, your facilitator, today I'm stepping into the role of a guest. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm thrilled to join the Transatlantic Conversation alongside two incredible facilitators Amy Goldberg and Caitlin Morrison. Amy is the host of the American Believing People podcast, a show that dives deep into the personal stories of resilience, the power of human connection and the belief in positive change. Caitlin Morrison, our other facilitator today, is the sister of Matthew Perry and director of the Matthew Perry Foundation, an organisation dedicated to supporting those on their recovery journeys and breaking down stigma surrounding addiction.
Speaker 1:For those unfamiliar, matthew Perry was a celebrated actor, best known for his role as Chandler Bing on the iconic sitcom Friends. While his comedic timing and charm made him a household name, his off-screen life revealed a deeper story. Matthew Perry struggled openly with addiction to prescription drugs and alcohol, becoming a powerful advocate for recovery. In 2022, he published his memoir Friends, lovers and the Big Terrible Thing, where he candidly shared his journey through fame, addiction and hope. Tragically, he passed away in October 2023 at the age of 54, leaving behind a legacy of advocacy and resilience. The Matthew Perry Foundation, led by his sister Caitlin, continues his mission by providing resources, creating safe spaces and promoting recovery for individuals worldwide.
Speaker 1:This episode is part of an exciting collaboration between our two podcasts, and today we're doing something a little special. What you're about to hear is an episode of the American Believing People podcast, shared for our UK channel, so subscribers can hear it at the same time as their listeners in America. It's a true simulcast released simultaneously on both platforms. This collaboration highlights how shared values and common goals can unite people across borders to spark meaningful conversations that drive change. Links to both the Believe in People American podcast and information about the Matthew Perry Foundation are included in this episode description, and we strongly encourage you to explore their show and visit their website for more details.
Speaker 2:Matt has dedicated over nine years to supporting individuals in the substance misuse field.
Speaker 3:His mission is powerful to break down the stigma of addiction matt now challenges misconceptions like why not just stop or why continue if you want to quit, as he advocates for meaningful change his belief is clear and inspiring.
Speaker 2:Real transformation starts when we believe in people. Welcome. My co-host is Caitlin Morrison. Caitlin is the executive director of the Matthew Perry Foundation, where she is carrying on the wishes of her brother, Matthew Perry, to help others struggling with the disease of addiction. Welcome, Caitlin.
Speaker 3:Thank you so very much. I'm very happy to be doing this with you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, caitlin and I get to ask Matt a ton of different questions. So, matt Butler, welcome to Bleeding People.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for having me. It's nice to be in the interviewee spot today as opposed to the interviewer. So lovely experience.
Speaker 2:Exactly so for those who do not know. Thank you, viewers and listeners. Matt has a very successful podcast in the UK and, wonderfully, it is also Believe in People and it focuses on recovery and addiction. Did I say that right, matt?
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, yeah, yeah, that's spot on that, yeah.
Speaker 2:So let's start with that. What sparked that?
Speaker 1:I think for me it was a case of. I started working in substance misuse services nearly 10 years ago and I think, like a lot of people, I didn't have that understand of what addiction was until I started working here. I started working here as an administrator, so it wasn't necessarily too recovery focused, I was just helping out on the phones, sending some emails, quite generic admin tasks. But once I got talking to the people that use the service and I started to hear their stories of addiction and I think for a lot of people they believe that addiction is a choice or it is a lack of willpower. And I think hearing the stories you start to learn that. And my mind was just blown, I suppose, in hearing these stories of resilience and hearing about what people had gone through and it changed my perception. And of course it changed my perception because I'm working in this service. The idea of the podcast was that I wanted to change more people's perception to what it is and it was about sharing these stories in a way that some people within addiction weren't getting the opportunity to share. Walking past a homeless person on the street, I don't think people really look at them and think I wonder how that happened. Instead, they kind of just walk past it as a casualty of society and it can be quite disregarding of the circumstances that led them there. And I just had this idea of what if we just created something where people could share those stories, where people could talk about their experiences, what they'd been through, how they did it and hopefully inspire others to maybe overcome their addiction as well. And that was really the motivation for it. I don't think I expected it to be as well received as it was. I think, based on the topic, I'd have been happy if 20 people listened to it, but to see the numbers of people listening just absolutely blew me away and it gave me the motivation to speak with more and more people from diverse backgrounds as well.
Speaker 1:So not just locally here in my city in Kingston up on Hull here in Yorkshire in the UK, but to speak to everyone across the UK, because the interesting thing about the landscape here in the UK is that if you live in Hull, you could have a very different experience. As someone who lives in Leeds, which is only an hour away, I think you could probably fit the entirety of the UK into Texas about four times over. Do you know what I mean. It's a small place, but it's very different from county to county. And you know, some people will say to me oh, I've got a friend in London, have you ever met them? I'm like no, you know, there's millions of people that live in the UK. No, I've never met them, but the idea being that everyone has these different stories and different experiences, and I wanted to share as many of them as possible as a way to inspire others.
Speaker 3:I love that that's what you're doing. It's I mean, it's remarkable, I think, the power that those stories have in changing people's minds. Are you finding that you are noticing it's working? Have you been? Have you, have you seen evidence of that? Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:I think the the interesting thing about seeing the the changes is is hearing how it has inspired people. I think there's almost like a stereotypical view of what a fellowship meeting looks like for people who attend the rooms of a and n, and it isn't what you always see in TV and movies and the idea of it being a certain way and, I think, people sharing their stories of their experiences, what those rooms was like and how welcoming they was. And a guy shared a story about his first time there. He was greeted with a hug and someone took him in and made him a cup of tea and he said he never felt so welcome somewhere and how that short story there inspired so many people to go to their first NA meeting or their first AA meeting. So even seeing that as the evidence, was interesting. I think other parts that we didn't expect to see was we've had students from local universities listening to the podcast and have asked if they could use quotes from it or if they could use the resource as part of their thesis or their dissertation. So that's been an interesting thing that we didn't expect to happen as well, like the educational standpoint and the educational view that what we're doing can have. But, yeah, talking to people and hearing how it's inspired them. In Hull, we hosted the National Recovery Walk in 2023, and that was a big deal because it's a traveling thing that happens across the uk and we had 3 000 people come to our city and all to celebrate recovery and to basically show this is what recovery looks like. This is visible recovery and we do recover, and the amount of people that came up and spoke to me on that walk to talk about how it had helped them as a resource was something that we didn't expect to hear and that was absolutely mind blowing as well to see that evidence of wow, this is a resource that is really helping people.
Speaker 1:And I think the interesting thing is I don't have addiction myself, so I can put myself in that view of when I talk about educating the public. I can put myself in to that position of the public and I'll ask questions that I know the answers to based on the work that I do, alcohol addiction being an example. You know, I think one of the things that my dad said to me before was why don't people just stop drinking then if they don't want to drink? And I'm like gee, dad, you know, I wonder if they've ever thought of that, but I can put myself in that position Sounds insane. Why did you keep on drinking when you knew that you wanted to stop? I know the answers to that most of the time, but I put myself in that position of the public who maybe don't know and therefore they can communicate and they can give them answers themselves.
Speaker 1:It's almost like a human library. You bring someone in and it's like a book where you can really talk to them and ask them questions and let them really tell their story of what it is like, of what the addiction was really like and the real, I suppose, the reality of withdrawal as well, which withdrawal they saw like a monster coming out of the wall when they was experiencing alcohol withdrawal because the hallucinations that they was experiencing in that process To me, you know, it's absolutely mental and even that, someone with experience, to hear those stories, I'm still interested and intrigued by it. So for someone without that knowledge of alcohol addiction or addiction or withdrawal to hear those stories as well is really educational and eye-opening to what people are actually going through.
Speaker 2:So hey, matt, so what about? So the organization that you're involved with, renew the Change Grow Live. Did that come? So? I know that the Believe in People came out of that. But is there a collaborative tell us about Renew and is there the collaboration where you're sort of lending the stories to Renew as well? I mean, how does that kind of work?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so Change Grow Live is the national organization and Renew is a local service that is provided by the organization. To give an overview, the way that it works is that the local councils will commission a service rather than them providing that service themselves. They will go out and an organization will come and they will provide through a tender process. Basically they will provide that contract. So here in hull it's called renew, so we're part of change grow live, but that doesn't mean anything to the people who are in addiction. Do you know the idea? I suppose the idea of renew came around is so we're just coming up for contract now. Now these contracts can be updated every five years. I think.
Speaker 1:Think the local Hull City Council here had gone through numerous contracts going to different organisations. I think there was something called Compass and there was Journey to Recovery and then there was the Drug Intervention Programme, now substance misuse if you're someone in addiction, you can be in that addiction for a long time and I think it got confusing going from oh I'm with this provider, I'm with this provider. So the idea of renew now is that it doesn't matter if Change Go Live have the contract, if an organization called Foe Trust has the contract. If With you has the contract, it doesn't matter what organization has it. This service in whole now will always be called renew, because that's what works for the local residents.
Speaker 2:So explain what does the contract mean? What does that mean?
Speaker 1:So the contract is that the Hull City Council will pay X amount of money let's say it's £1 million to Change Grow Live to provide X amount of staff members to help the local community. Now the reason why these contracts are mainly done on a four to five year basis is because if it's not working after four to five years you can bring in another organisation that may be able to do a better job. I think what we're seeing in Hull is that Change Grow Live have been doing a very good job helping the local people here with substance misuse problems, that they're continuing to use Change Grow Live as an organisation to do that. So Renew is just a name for the local service that Change Grow Live provides. It does get a bit confusing. I think. Even working here as long as I have, I still get a little bit confused by it. At the end of the day I come to work and I do my job and that's enough for me.
Speaker 1:But with that, with the podcast, change Grow Live's identity and their mantra is believe in people. So the idea that we took from that was that has to be the ethos If you work for this service, if you work for this organization, you have to believe that people can change. And it can be exhausting working with people in addiction because we know that they will lie and we know that they will manipulate. And for me it doesn't excuse the behavior, but it explains that behavior is something that I always say and it's almost like that's their culture, that's what they've had to do for so long that it becomes a natural part of what they're doing. It's almost just survival for them. But the idea for me is, even when I experienced that as often as I do, if I don't believe that people can change, if I don't believe that people can get well, then I'm in the wrong job. I will always believe in everyone that walks through that door, no matter where they are. I've seen people on death's door. I remember delivering a methadone prescription to a local pharmacy and there was a lad in there that looked like he was a week away from death. Funny enough, that same lad became a volunteer of mine a couple of years later. Then he became a paid staff member and now he's a manager within the Hep C Trust and that's a local organization that does hepatitis C screening, educates and treats hepatitis. And even then, when I saw him on Death's Door. There was still part of me that naturally believes you're going to get through this, you're going to change and you have to have that to work in these services. If you don't, it's the wrong service. You have to believe that people can change and that was the idea and that's where the name for this podcast came from is that you have to believe in people, no matter where they are, and I think that's what we see.
Speaker 1:The podcast is often structured in a way where at the beginning we talk about those early beginnings. We talk about their introduction to substances when they first started using drugs. We talk about their rock bottom moments. We talk about what was the catalyst for change and then we talk about what they're doing now and how they're living a sober life and how their life is better for it. So in that hour to 90 minutes podcast that we provide, it's a conversation there that we see someone go from where they was in the depths of despair, on death's door sometimes, to coming out the other end of it and naturally, hopefully by the end of it. That it challenges that stigma of addiction that addicts will all be addicts. You know that people can change and they do and they will recover, and that was the the ethos of the podcast and where the name came from as well it's so amazing that you're showing people that that you have that sort of faith and hope and belief that they're going to get through it.
Speaker 3:I also really like that you have that sort of faith and hope and belief that they're going to get through it. I also really like that you're focusing on each person, sort of not even just believe in people, believe in each person and I see that too when. I look at you, know, change, grow Live. And they say everyone's journey is different and we'll figure out something that works for you.
Speaker 3:Can you talk a little bit about how the work that you're doing is showing. That is, demonstrating how each person's journey is going to be a little bit different, and that's maybe okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. I think you have to understand that they're always, I mean even during the podcast series. I think I will see with people that I speak to, I can often pick similarities in their stories. And a guy said to me before on the podcast. He said, well, my story is like much like everybody else's. And it was a point that he made where I went all right, and at first I was like well, don't ruin the podcast, you know not. Not every episode's the same here, do you? You know? So every story is different. Yes, there are similarities, but every story is different and it could be that their circumstances are different.
Speaker 1:You could have someone who's maybe coming in and they've got a young child, or someone that's coming in and their addiction's having an effect or an impact on their wife or their husband. Everyone's coming in with a different background, a different story, and I think that is the ethos really, and we can't provide a service of treatment where it's a one-size-fits-all in the sense of you come in, you're giving your method on script, these are the programs that you're going to do and you're going to go out the other door. Because I understand that group work for some people just doesn't work. I don't think I'd do well in a group. I'm quite a private person, so I don't think I'd like to um share too much about myself in a group setting. Now I'd like to think if I was in service, I wouldn't be expected to have to participate in groups in fact, I know I wouldn't. I'd be able to do that same work, but in a one-to-one setting.
Speaker 1:I remember doing cbt therapy in 2016 and I went in and the doctor said, oh, I've got my trainee assistant, you don't mind if they're sitting on the appointment day. And at first I went, yeah, yeah, that's fine. And then I sat there. But actually you know what? No, I do mind. I was like I would like to do this one and he was like oh, oh, okay, do you know? And for me, that's what I needed. So the idea that I think I understand what it's like to be in that chair opposite a professional and trying to seek help for something.
Speaker 1:For me it was crippling anxiety, you know, just not really being able to almost function on a day-to-day basis. You know, because of the anxiety, getting on a bus was a task for me. Do you know what I mean? So I know what it's like to be needing help and I think putting myself in the position that I'm in as a professional is I know how I'd like to be treated. I've got family my cousin actually opiate addiction has been in service. I know how I'd like my family to be trapped. So I think that's really the the be all and end of it all is treat people how you'd like to be treated. Make sure this service is good enough, like something we often ask ourselves is would you recommend this service to your family? There's been times when it has been hard, it has been difficult. I thought you know what? No, I wouldn't. And then there's other times I was like, yeah, absolutely. We don't always get it right, but we try our best to get it right is what I'd say yeah, so just making sure.
Speaker 1:Oh sorry, matt, go ahead please no, just just making sure that the service is is fit for for individuals is what I'm saying that it isn't a again, it isn't a one-size-fits-all yeah, because I want to ask you.
Speaker 2:So what does your day to your personal day-to-day look like in the work that you're doing?
Speaker 1:So my job isn't podcasting, this is just an additional part of my job. I'm actually the volunteer lead, so I get to work with people who have gone through addiction and now they want to give back to support their community. So I deliver training around drug awareness, alcohol awareness. We talk about boundaries professional boundaries. We do safeguarding how do we protect vulnerable adults and children and that's a big part of my job is supporting individuals to then support other individuals and seeing the value in that. I think one thing that I sometimes hear is only an addict can help another addict. I don't believe in that. I think there is value in it. I know that I have helped many people without being an addict myself and many of my colleagues have as well, but there's definitely the value in having someone with lived experience sit and speak to someone and be able to really relate to what they're going through. Who has been in the exact position of a similar position.
Speaker 2:Right, matt, it's kind of like the sponsor, yeah yeah, yeah, can't.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of like a spot I used to say the difference with sponsors was that there was a time when my understanding of sponsors there was contacted 24 hours a day. It was a seven days a week, 365 days a week commitment. But now even some of the sponsors in the rooms are like putting personal boundaries in place to say, look, I'm here to help you, but you can't contact me after 8pm, so even that sort of thing. But that is exactly it. Really, it's the idea of sponsoring someone. So what we'll do is we'll set smart goals for people, you know, small, manageable goals that they can achieve on that, maybe week by week basis, uh, sharing their experiences, but not in a way that makes it all about them, because even that something is. I guess what they've got to understand is, look, sometimes just talking about your problems doesn't help, or where you've been doesn't help other people. I think it's. You know, if I went somewhere and it was like, yeah, I know exactly what you mean, I started talking about them, I'd just be like, all right, yeah, do you know? It's not about you, do you know? So there's, there's even a way that you, there's a way to share that lived experience and even teaching. That can be quite difficult really is to look whilst you will get something out of this for your own recovery and helping others, you've got to make sure that it's not about you. You've got to drip feed your information through. Only I call it, um, the pipe bomb sort of thing, like for some people they don't even disclose they're in recovery and they look really well, and then someone's developed a relationship with them, a professional relationship that is, and then you know, three months in they might say something about their own recovery, like what you're in recovery. It's like, yeah, do you know? Because now it's useful, now it's a good time to let them know. It isn't always a case of just coming into a room saying, yep, I'm in recovery too, so I know exactly what you've gone through, and then making it all about them. There's a way in which you need to do that professionally. So, yeah, peer support is is my specialty really in this service. And how do we? How do we help people? By sharing our own experiences.
Speaker 1:And another little metaphor I use is the box. Have you ever bought something and you take out the box, but then you don't need it, so you go to return it. But somehow the way they manufactured it to get it in that box is really clever, and now you can't get the pieces back in that box in the same way, so it's really difficult. And I said that's kind of what it's like. It's it's about once you take something out the box, it's you can't always put it back in. So be careful.
Speaker 1:What you do share as well. Because I remember an example. I went to my local it sounds really British my local fish and chip shop. I was near there and one of our service users was like I didn't know you live around here. I was like I don't and I had to keep quiet. I was like, no, I used to live around here when I was a kid. But like this, chibis, I've come up this because I didn't want them to know I live nearby because obviously that can affect my professional relationship and the last thing I want is someone knocking on my door at 2 am in the morning saying matt, I need help, and it's like, oh, do you know? So, even having holes, a very small city.
Speaker 1:I often joke and say everyone knows everyone. They don't. But it's often found like a mutual friend, um, the producer of the podcast. Robbie, when we first met, turns out, we had some childhood friends there and we never met before. We had some similar childhood friends from our teenage years. So there's always people know people. So I said it's about be careful what you share, because even though you will respect their confidentiality, your confidentiality might not be respected in that same way. So all this is part of what we do on that day-by-day basis do you see any changes in the volunteers that you're working with?
Speaker 1:absolutely. I think that I think they definitely get something out of it. And seeing that professional growth I mean some of the colleagues that I've got talking about the value of lived experience, we've got not just volunteers but people who are volunteers and our paid staff here as well. They've actually joined the team and some of them in management positions now because they've been you know around that long.
Speaker 1:Seeing that professional growth because I think the one thing to for some people they haven't had a job in 20 years because of addiction well and then they've come in and now they're they're doing this, this professional job, and seeing that growth in, in how they conduct themselves in the white place, because they wouldn't have had a clue what professionalism was or even what boundaries was or any of this sort of stuff you know. So to see that growth in them as individuals and I, I guess, as an example is, um, sometimes you could say something correct. It might create an emotional reaction, but to see them sort of hold on to that emotional reaction and walk away from them situations, or there'll be things that's mentioned with service users which can be triggers. Now, if someone to me starts, uh, talking about substance misuse or telling me that they went on a massive bender at the weekend and they took x amount of substances that didn't do anything to me, it doesn't create a trigger for me. It doesn't make me think, oh god, I could do with some of that. But there's times when people in them, early days of volunteering, where that euphoric recall can make them think, oh, wow, the smell of alcohol can bring things up for people as well, do you know? So there's all these things and seeing how they go from being quite vulnerable to just being able to take that on the chin and, yeah, they can comfortably talk about those things. They can go to a pub and not necessarily feel the need to have a drink. You know, it shows that resilience that they've built up. They're the sort of professional changes and personal changes and personal growth that you can see in people the the longer they maintain sobriety. And it's interesting because it's not a case of you've had five years. There's no chance you're going back to it. I know people that have been sober for 10 years still consider themselves to be in recovery.
Speaker 1:Something that we explore in the podcast is when does recovery become recovered? For some people it never does. Some people think, well, I don't want to chance it. Other people think you know what? Maybe I could have a drink, but again, I don't. I know what it's done to me before. So, whilst I'm not physically dependent to it, it could trigger, um, a binge drinking session that starts out as a day, two days. Next thing, you know you're three weeks in and you're right back to where you was 10 years ago. So there's all them things that you kind of see and I think being able to have those conversations with people and it not feel like a taboo subject as well. That shows growth as well.
Speaker 2:And you know, I, I, this would go, um. I mean, I think this is important because we're we're joined by Caitlin and I think, you know, not all of us, uh, um, are successful in our recovery, and I mean Caitlin knows this firsthand with her brother, matthew. And Caitlin, how do you? Because I'm just you know, first of all, you have to be. You talked about resilience and vulnerability and you know, being true to yourself and your people struggle and you know, no matter how much they try and I think this is obviously for Caitlin's brother to such a different circumstance Maybe I don't know, I'm just talking here because he was in the limelight and he was surrounded by, yes, people like Caitlin. What do you think about the this, the approach to recovery and all of that, and addiction? I'm just thinking between the two of you.
Speaker 3:There might be. I mean there's. There's certainly something there.
Speaker 3:I think it also goes to that idea of you know, the experience is different for everybody yeah it's a, it's a, it's a horrible beast, no matter who you are, no matter what you deal with.
Speaker 3:Being surrounded by yes men and being passed on the street like nobody cares about you might you know, or can both be triggers, I think, for people, for people, but it's you know. It shows that not not every story, unfortunately, has a has a happy ending. But at the same time, I think in every story you can see in people that no matter what happens, no matter what kind of stumbling blocks come along, there is still that desire to keep trying. There is still that need to find that relief, to find that help, and when there's help available, I think that people can find that happy ending, that new thing and having the peer support that Matt is talking about having somebody around who can remind you. You know, maybe you're okay, there's nothing wrong. You know, if you go off and you have an accidental binge drinking session, it doesn't mean it's the end of the road for you. It just means it's time to approach something differently and keep on it. But anybody who keeps on it, I think, is a winner, no matter what.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's true. I mean, Matt, what do you think about with the people that you work with in recovery? What's? Is there one thing that surprised you the most, or something that you I mean I'm sure we've learned a ton along the way but just something that sort of stands out with those?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know I mentioned earlier about rock bottom moments and I think the one thing that always amazes me is how everyone can have that different rock bottom moment and the levels of it. So as a as an example, I remember one guy he'd been injecting into his groin and because of what he'd been doing he'd he damaged the vein and basically the whole leg had died. It needed to be amputated.
Speaker 2:Now for for most, why would you inject there? Just Just, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:That's it.
Speaker 1:No, no, no. So it's just do you know what? It's probably down to the fact that all his other veins weren't usable, you know. So he was going into the groin because it's quite a prominent vein that you can get to, quite an easy vein to get to as well. If someone needs a hit, they will inject everywhere. I know people that have injected into the veins in the neck. You know, very, very dangerous and it can go wrong, and that's kind of what happened to this guy. So he'd been injecting into the groin and the whole leg had died and it resulted in basically an amputation.
Speaker 1:Now, for most you'd think God, that's enough. Then that would be the wake-up call. Nope, went to the other leg, started of a leg, started using that one. Eventually that leg needed to be amputated as well. Still wasn't in the rock bottom moment. Still wasn't a moment, because that's how fixated he was on needing to get that fix of his next, of his next, um, next dose of heroin, basically. But then I will meet people who their rock bottom moment was she was a mother and she was got intoxicated and she forgot to pick her kids up from school. She found it really embarrassing and with that it was like right, I can't drink anymore, I need to stop drinking, and that was enough for her. So that's the thing that surprises me is how that threshold, that rock bottom moment of I need to make changes, can be so different for so many people. And I think, yeah, just again going back to the amputations of when is enough enough and every moment for everybody, when we talk about everyone's individual journey, it's going to be different for every single person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, I'm sorry as you're talking, okay, so if you're watching this instead of listening to this, while you're talking about that, I'm looking at your back screen.
Speaker 1:I'm sat right in front of the tv, so that's hilarious it changes it's a strange background that one that's great listen.
Speaker 2:You have to have levity in the work that you do absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you have to have this very important.
Speaker 2:Well, listen, we're coming to our end of our podcast and, as you know, uh, we're believing people and I have to say I absolutely love that we both have believing people because we, because perspective is everything, and so when we're talking about interviewing people that are fascinating, their stories or experiences, we're also looking at the other side of humanness and the challenges and the struggles and the addictions, and so that's it's as important as anything else. So I I love that you're doing this, like I just think thank you fantastic no, it's nice to be nice to be here.
Speaker 1:It really is. I'm glad you are, thank you I'm really glad.
Speaker 2:I want to ask you we caitlin, I want to ask you why we know that you believe in people. Why should others believe in people?
Speaker 1:I. I think you will live a very this sounds harsh. I think you'll lead a very sad life if you don't believe that people can change. I think the one thing that I get inspired by on a daily basis is seeing that, changing people and believing that people can change, and I think if you can have that, your life will be better as well. I think there's something about growing as an individual in terms of I mean, I'm not the type of person to hold grudges either. I believe people can change. I've had people do things to me in life where other people would cut them out completely. I'm okay with it. I've made peace with what happened. I believe that person's changed and maybe you know, maybe more fool me for it, but I think I live a much happier and more fulfilling life and believing that people can change, and I think if more people did, the world would be an infinitely better place because of it.
Speaker 2:It's great. Thanks, matt, really appreciate your time.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. It's been amazing to meet you.
Speaker 2:No, thank you. Amazing to meet you off too, caitlin, what, wow, you know. Something that I find is really interesting, as we sort of wrap this, is that I never really I mean he. I thought that it was interesting that Matt said he does not struggle with addiction as far as a definition of it is. And I just thought it was interesting that Matt said he does not struggle with addiction as far as the definition of it is, and I just thought that was interesting, because you have to have an awful lot of compassion, empathy, to be able to even understand not with that individual that they're working with.
Speaker 3:I thought about that too. I mean the, the ability to, to the, the, the empathy is. It's true that that you need to have a lot of it, but to be able to listen to stories the way he does and take away from it like just talking about believing people, a belief in everything that people say when they talk about you know, he was saying people explain what withdrawal is like, and he doesn't doubt that, he doesn't question it. He just he, he deeply understands that. Oh, my goodness, that's part of the experience and that's part of the reason why we have to be compassionate and fight for other people. As he was talking, at one point I started to think about I wonder if he ever goes out to the pub and has a beer and looks at the beer and thinks, hmm, might not taste as good now as it used to Whether or not I have an issue sharing all these stories.
Speaker 3:I wonder if it paints things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. Well, if you've liked this episode and it's proven helpful to you, we encourage you to subscribe to Believe in People, not only ours, but also Believe in People in the UK. So thanks everyone for coming out. Caitlin, thank you so much, thank you so much.
Speaker 3:This has been so much fun. I'm glad.
Speaker 1:And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode, and leaving a review will help us reach more people and continue challenging stigma around addiction and recovery. For additional resources, insights and updates, explore the links in this episode description and to learn more about our mission and hear more incredible stories.
