Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#57 - Sarah Hicks (Part 1): Emotional Manipulation, Coercion, Self-Worth, Societal Stigma, Domestic Violence, Addiction, Trauma, Abuse, Codependency, Gaslighting, Generational Influences, Parenthood, Abandonment and Overcoming Adversity
In this comprehensive two-part episode, Matt sits down with Sarah Hicks to explore her life story, touching on a wide range of themes that include addiction, trauma, abusive relationships, grief, and recovery. Sarah reflects on her early experiences with substance use, the impact of coercive control and emotional manipulation in her relationships, and the challenges of coping with profound loss and abandonment.
The conversation delves into the generational and societal influences that shaped Sarah’s understanding of love, connection, and normalcy, as well as the role of codependency in perpetuating cycles of addiction and unhealthy relationships. Sarah candidly discusses her struggles with self-worth, the complexities of parenthood, and her eventual journey toward healing and personal transformation.
Through a lens of resilience and self-discovery, Sarah offers insights into overcoming adversity, breaking free from harmful patterns, and rebuilding a sense of self in the wake of trauma. This episode provides a detailed and nuanced exploration of the interplay between addiction, mental health, family dynamics, and societal stigma.
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Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma.
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We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.
This is a Renew Original Recording. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host or, as Alex say, your facilitator. Today we have the first of a special two-part episode and we're joined by guest Sarah Hicks, a remarkable woman whose journey through trauma, addiction and recovery offers powerful insights into the realities of substance use, domestic abuse and personal transformation. In this two-part episode, sarah courageously shares her story of growing up with substance use, navigating abusive relationships and the profound impact of loss and grief. Her story is one of struggle, survival and, ultimately, strength. In this deeply honest conversation, sarah opens up about the cycles of addiction, the quest for love and connection and the turning points that have shaped her recovery. I begin the conversation by asking Sarah about her experiences with substances and how those experiences have shaped both her recovery and the work that she does today.
Speaker 2:That kind of started when I was 10 years old. Really, me and my friend, we went into recovery within two weeks of each other back in 2018. And we used to kind of steal hooch bottles off my mum and dad and we used to sit in the loft and drink them. And the loft wasn't like converted or anything so we could have fell through at any time and it just progressed and progressed. You know, that kind of almost natural progression of addiction went on to cannabis. Then, when I was 16, it was cocaine, um, and ecstasy and and things like that, and it just spiralled and spiralled. And I think you know I did it.
Speaker 2:When I look back, I always felt when I was young, I always felt a little bit different. I always felt very scared. I just didn't have any confidence whatsoever. And when I used to go to school I used to be petrified, like I remember walking to school and there were some girls at our school and they used to stop us and search us for cigarettes and things and I just used to let them do it. I was so frightened, I was so scared of like Hate or being, you know, being embarrassed in front of everybody. So I think as well, the more I drank smoked weed and whatever. It just gave me that confidence.
Speaker 2:You know to be who I thought I wanted to be you know, at the time and yeah, and I think that just went on and on and, like when I was 16, I was in a relationship with a woman and that's who I started taking cocaine with. And again, I just thought it was was like weekend stuff when I went out and whatnot. But then I came out of that relationship and got into another relationship and it was. It was very abusive, very, very abusive, and I didn't know that at the time.
Speaker 1:How old was you when you got into this abusive?
Speaker 2:relationship 17.
Speaker 1:Very, very young then isn't it? Yeah, when you say you don't understand, it's abusive because of that age. All these experiences are first-time experiences, so therefore they're quite you take them as normal because it's the first time experiencing them in some way. Yeah, Tell me a little bit about that then, or you take them as normal because it's the first time experiencing them in some way. Tell me a little bit about that then.
Speaker 2:So in 2003, I lost my granddad. He was poorly, he'd been poorly for years and it was. I didn't want to lose him, but it was a bit of a blessing in disguise. I didn't. When he went because he'd been poorly for so long. It was like he kind of needed to go. He'd had two heart attacks. He'd had about seven strokes mini strokes, big strokes.
Speaker 2:He'd just been so poorly for so long and I'd just kind of come out of this relationship with a woman because my parents wouldn't allow me to be in a relationship with a woman. So it kind of propelled me into this other relationship really and very quickly. Like there would be incidences where I would be out with him. And I remember specifically this night. I remember a lot of things, but you know when you remember specifics and we was on Holderness Road and we'd been on a night out and we was on the way home and we didn't live far from each other. So we was walking and a guy from across the road sat and went, sarah, and he like waved at me and I went all right, and I turned around and my partner at the time just went ooh, you slag. And he just used to say things like that to me all the time, called me awful, awful names, pros-age stuff, like that, and I just remember at the time, but I was just, I was so desperate for him to love me.
Speaker 2:I just, I just didn't. I just thought what can I do, what can I do? And I was like, oh, please don't, please don't. And I was crying and I was like like begging him. You know, please don't do this, please don't do this. And he just walked off and left me in the middle of like Udness Road. And I remember going home and I remember ringing his house phone and his mum picked up and I was like I don't know what's just happened, blah, blah, blah. And his mum said, oh, just wait, wait for him to wake up tomorrow, kind of thing. So and then I rang him because I was so desperate, like for, because he was like he's quite a well-known guy, like a lot of the girls wanted to be with him.
Speaker 2:I thought, oh, I've been such a geek at school, you know, I just I thought I'd made it you know, and I thought, god, somebody loves me, you know, somebody like that loves me and yeah, and things like that just happened all the time and I just constantly go back. And then I remember my friend I'll never forget her saying it to me. My friend, at the time she went, he does it because he loves you, he's just his head goes about, yeah, you know. So I thought, oh, my god, like, yeah, you know. So that that's what I thought. I thought it was because he loved me so much that, and also I was like I said I was, I was just desperate for him to love me and was was just going back to that, like the you know the incident you're talking there.
Speaker 1:Um, was that like the first type of abuse that you experienced with him, and was it the verbal abuse? And that it?
Speaker 2:started. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay yeah it's.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I can see. I completely understand what you know, where you're coming from with it and how we can. I'm interested how it escalated from that point as well, because from what I'm hearing there is you're feeling like you're in the wrong as well because you said hello to someone. It's almost like your friend has kind of justified the behavior. He's doing it because he loves you and that only do you know what I mean. It kind of just reaffirms it with you and in terms of the way that you was thinking anyway, which isn't healthy really in any respects how did it escalate from the verbal abuse and? Um, can I just ask was he older than you or was he the same age?
Speaker 1:because 17 is quite young for the eight years so he was eight years old, so I think at 25 they know exactly what they're doing as well with that, don't they?
Speaker 2:and, I think, my mum and dad. They were happy when I got in a relationship with them, but then they wouldn't let me be with a woman either.
Speaker 1:I was going to comment. There's the irony there to have that belief of not wanting to be with a woman but then being okay with you being in a relationship which clearly isn't. I know what.
Speaker 2:I'd rather for my daughter to be honest naturally Tell me a little bit more than how that behaviour escalated be honest, naturally, tell me a little bit more than how that behavior escalated so I mean, my mum and dad did try with him, um, and there were things that I didn't tell him.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, I remember being at his house one night and he'd he'd gone through my phone. It's like calling me, it's like push me out the side of the bed, you know there was loads. It started off like shoves and things like that and then when like he'd be drunk and things like that, it'd escalate even further. But it was always more around what he would say about me and like the jabs, like the jar you know the jars, like the bad words, the nasty words, the, you know, like I say, the prosy, you know the dyke I got dyke a lot, you know.
Speaker 2:Just all these really really hurtful words and like that kind of like control, just it kind of kept me with him really because I thought I already thought before I got with him, because I've done a lot of work around my childhood and stuff I already thought I was worthless, you know, and then I thought he was this big, powerful, like magnificent king, giant. There was no way that I was going to get any better than him, you know. So it was just so I stayed, but as well, um, I got caught pregnant and my mum and dad was absolutely devastated, um. But then I had a miscarriage, um. So yeah, it was really, really upsetting. At the time I was only 18, my head was all over. I was obviously in an abusive relationship, didn't know I'd, only a year ago, been told I wasn't allowed to be with a woman. You know just all these different things. I've been bullied at school.
Speaker 1:Just all this stuff kept constantly like slamming me down it feels like so many aspects of your life are under control by external. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Massively.
Speaker 1:You're just going to implode at that point, aren't you Getting it from all those different angles? Yeah, school peers, parents, relationships. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I can see that I watched me myself and Irene recently and do you know where he kind of implodes because he's being controlled by that many people. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was. He kind of implodes because he's being controlled by that many people. Yeah, I was thinking about it the other day and I was thinking that was me, that was me. You know, I was just. I wanted to scream out, I wanted to, to have this voice, but I just had to be certain things to to certain people. So so many times you're playing a character to every single person.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? Like, even going back to the substance, misuse. It's a character. It's who you think you want to be, rather than this timid person at school being, you know, bullied by girls at the school gates, being the person that your parents want you to be, being the person that this you know boyfriend wanting you to be. Yeah, I can see how you'd want to implode, especially at that age, because it is such a they're pivotal years, I think.
Speaker 1:Finding yourself, you know, come as a teenager and then coming into it's real weird. I kind of feel like you at that point in your life, and for me especially, you feel like you're following a path and then suddenly you get to 16, 17 and you've gone from primary school to secondary school, where everything's laid out in front of you and then the road just comes to an end and you're in an open field and you don't know which way to go, and it's really pivotal time in your life where you're trying to find out okay, who am I, where do I go now? And you can't even really explore those because you are being controlled still in all these different areas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's heartbreaking yeah, and I didn't realize at the time, but I just had this big void and all I wanted was to be loved. That's all I wanted was to be loved.
Speaker 1:Did you not get love from your parents then? As a child, did you not feel loved by them? Where does that come from, this needing to be loved?
Speaker 2:I think, do you know what and I have been thinking about this recently as well my mum and my dad worked a lot of hours, a lot of hours like 12-hour shifts. I remember him being on shutdown for about I think it was a good solid two years, like six and a half days a week, you know, and he did a lot of training and stuff. And I remember like we'd be sat and we'd be watching the TV and my mum would go like I'd be shouting at my dad for ages I'd go Dad, dad, dad, dad, and he wasn't answering me and he used to do this thing where he used to like tickle his tash while he was watching the telly and in the end my mum would go Ronnie, like that, and he'd go what they're being shouting here? But he was knackered. He was absolutely knackered. And my mum, when I was young, she just she worked as well. She worked part-time up until I got a little bit older.
Speaker 2:She always wanted the perfect house, you know, and she wanted everything to be nice and clean and tidy, because that's how she'd been brought up yeah you know, and I was an only child and growing up, my dad had a previous marriage and they divorced and then obviously got one, got one my mum and he had a son who was my brother and we used to turn up a lot to go pick him up and he went there like his mum had sent him off fishing with his granddad or whatnot. And I used to see how gutted my dad used to be, because I used to be with him and all I wanted was my big brother. And then I'd kind of try telling my mum and I just don't think she got it and she'd be like oh well, you're all right, you know, it don't matter, you know, and I just remember, just absolutely craving God, I've got a big brother and I just wanted him. I wanted him in my life.
Speaker 1:Connection, isn't it really? Yeah, that sounds like something that you're striving for as a, as a child and even as a young adult. It's connection, isn't it really?
Speaker 2:yeah that's kind of what I'm seeing here absolutely, and it's really bizarre, though, because I've still got the same best friends as I had when I was four years old. Yeah, you know. But yeah, so I think you know a lot of it kind of came from that, because me and my brother we got in touch with each other in 2017 and we are in each other's lives now, and it's seven years we've been in each other's lives, but it still sometimes doesn't sink in with me that I've got a brother. It's really bizarre, and I think all these different things left that void in me which wanted that love, and you know, I had that miscarriage going back to when I was like 18. I had the miscarriage. I wanted to be pregnant again straight away, so I just carried on having sex unprotected. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I eventually got pregnant again. Again, my mum and dad was absolutely devastated but they tried to kind of speak to, you know, speak to the guy who I was with at the time yeah, um, and kind of build a relationship. But that lasted a few months and it just took a nosedive again and I always kind of chose him over my parents because I was just I was desperate. And then I got to about 20 odd weeks pregnant and one night I'd gone back to the house and he didn't want me in the house it was our house and he threw a telly at me. It didn't hit me and stuff. And I remember ringing, my mum and dad screaming, crying, and my dad ran round and my dad was going to you know he was, yeah, and I just I remember thinking at the time, what's going on, what's going on?
Speaker 2:But I just the severity of it didn't register with me. I still felt like a child myself. And yeah, and they brought me away from him, but I'd go back. He'd ring me a week or two later, hiya, you all right, and kind of gaslight me about it. Oh, come on, it wasn't that bad. Just that constant gaslighting was just constant all the way through. So I'm a little bit today, still a little bit defensive.
Speaker 1:Do you?
Speaker 2:know if people like taking me seriously or I feel like they've just undermined me there, or they're not. They're undermining my feelings. That comes back for me. Yeah, you know that comes back for me today, um.
Speaker 2:So then, yeah, I went back, got back with, got back with the guy and there was a night, um, and he said he was just popping shop and he didn't. And I thought where is he? And I was with my friend at the time and I was 32 weeks pregnant and I stormed to the pub to find him and I went ballistic, I went crazy, I went mad and we came out of the pub and we went back to the house. Anyway, the argument stopped. But then, because my friend was in my house with me, he was accusing me of being a lesbian. You know, I'm having an affair, I'm doing this, I'm doing that.
Speaker 2:So everything kind of got a bit out of control and my friend was there and I tried kind of getting away from him and I slipped on the we had laminate flooring at the time and I fell to the floor and I think I was out for a little bit and my friend witnessed him kicking me in my stomach when I was 32 weeks a little bit, and my friend witnessed him kicking me in my stomach when I was 32 weeks pregnant.
Speaker 2:Jesus, yeah, and I just remember going. An ambulance came, we went off to the hospital and my dad was just devastated Like absolutely it was devastating for my mum, but I always remember my dad being just completely devastated and and they took me through and my dad, like they said you have to report this to the police now, because I'd never reported anything. Reported it to the police now because I'd never reported anything, reported it to the police, and there was an injunction out on him and I wasn't allowed to speak to him and whatever. And weeks went by and I was talking to my friend and I was like, oh, I miss him, miss him. So she was like why don't you ring him? Is this the same friend?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean, it doesn't sound like a very good friend.
Speaker 2:I think at the time she was in the same place as I was okay, yeah you know, I, I do, I do believe that.
Speaker 1:Well, I know that yeah I know that makes a bit more sense now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's that generational thing as well, matt, you know it's, I still see couples now, do you know? Just, let's just let's just not talk about, let's ignore it, you know, let's just let's move on, you know, and just everything will be all right, you know? And? And yeah, and he was like a bit apprehensive about speaking to me on the phone and I spoke to him and I was like I'll retract my statement. No, that wasn't what I said straight away. I was talking to him and he said like I'll retract my statement. No, that wasn't what I said straight away. I was talking to him and he said, oh well, you know, if I see, if, if I'm gonna see, yeah, I'm gonna need you to do this, but I tried to retract my statement, but the CPS had enough to take it forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, because, they're gonna think you've been coerced into retracting your statement as well, aren't they?
Speaker 2:yeah, in some respects yeah, yeah, looking back, yeah, I think they did so. Yeah, but then it got to about. It was the day before I was no, it was my actual due date and I'd arranged to see him and I told my parents I was sleeping at a friend's house and I went to sleep at his house and like we did something and it brought kind of the birth on, and then I rang him and I said, you know, I wanted him to come to the hospital and my dad just went.
Speaker 2:My dad couldn't even be in the hospital while he was there. My mum stayed with me, even though they weren't talking, yeah, and then I had my daughter and I remember being in the hospital, bearing in mind I was only 19. And like my mum and dad didn't want to be there, do you know, while Lee was there and stuff, so they'd go and he'd come, and I remember the first day he went.
Speaker 2:Oh well, I'm off out to wet the baby's head, I can only stay about half an hour, an hour, and then he went off and then I didn't hear anything till the next day and it was just always like that. But that constant gaslighting as the what, why, why are you being like that? You know what? Oh, come on and and then, I'd get oh well, it's just a minute, that's just the way he is.
Speaker 1:And you know off off members of the family, off, you know off friends and and and whatnot excuses the behavior, doesn't it when you've got, and if it's the people around you that you trust as well, and you listen to those opinions, and you're like, oh okay, I get it now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah but my dad, my dad always knew.
Speaker 1:My dad's position never, ever changed after that ever absolutely, I think, as a parent myself you know, know, and with a very, very young daughter. But I like to think that in some way you know that person that your daughter gets in a relationship with. That is the person that you are trusting to look after your daughter in your absence, when you're gone, whether that be you know physically not there or you know whatever. And if he's got no trust for that person and you wouldn't, based on what happened at such a young age, he's never gonna, you know, change his mind on that person. Was he aware of the assault and everything as well that happened?
Speaker 1:my dad, yeah, yeah yeah, I don't think he could. I couldn't come. But I know personally, if someone ever you know, I just won't be able to change my opinion on that person. So I completely understand why your dad was the way he was with him. That makes sense to me how long was you with him?
Speaker 2:On and off for 13 years. Wow, I'd split up with him for about three years.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And then you get back together and things like that? Yeah. What was the worst moment in that relationship? What would you say? The rock bottom of that relationship was Because, for this to happen, how old was your daughter when you broke up? Then? Was she 13 or 11, 11 yeah so do you know?
Speaker 1:I mean, this is all this that you did. This entire story so far has been up to the point of where she was born and there's a lot there already in such a short space of time. So for 11 years, I imagine, of similar things, as you've mentioned the, the coercive control, the verbal abuse, the physical abuse. What was the worst thing that happened within those 11 years before you eventually broke up with him?
Speaker 2:There was loads of things.
Speaker 1:I imagine there's not a single pinpoint or anything. I guess I'll tell you what I'll refer in my question a little bit. What was the moment then when you thought, fuck this, I can't be with this person anymore.
Speaker 2:Enough's enough right and then I was just going to start talking about. So it was 2016 and I didn't know this until my friends told me, but it knocked me unconscious. So throughout our relationship it was very codependent and we did drink together a lot and used together a lot.
Speaker 2:But that wasn't only when things were shit, you know, they always were. Every time we got back together it was like, oh yeah, let's get this house and we're going on these holidays and we're doing this and doing that, and slowly but surely I'd end up a quivering, anxious mess all over again, you know, and I still couldn't see it. And then one of my best friends she was just, she's an amazing person, Amazing person. She went and did the social work degree. We both went to uni I was 28, she was 29. And we went at the same time and she did the social work degree and she'd done some placement at CETDAP, She'd had a job at Purple House, so she'd been learning about this stuff and she could see, she'd started to see what was going on with me and it isolated me that bad again. There was only her who was willing to start coming. You know, carry on coming to my house.
Speaker 2:Everybody else was just a bit like, you know, or I'd just not really bother with people. And I remember this one night it'd been out, he'd not come home, been dossing wherever again, and I thought I've had enough. I've had enough and I'm not proud to say, but my daughter was there and he'd come in and he just got on the couch. This was a house that I was paying the rent for, which he refused to. That was another thing I used to have to stand.
Speaker 2:I remember being stood with a bank statement, having to go through it with a fine tooth comb, when I'd asked for some money towards the house and he was like, well, I pay for your holidays and all this stuff, but I was paying rent. He was renting his house out that he had a mortgage on. He had no rent to pay. Like I had to pay all the bills, you know, when he was away, because he worked away a lot.
Speaker 2:I had to pay for everything, you know, and yeah, and just all this stuff kept adding up, adding up and I was just so anxious I couldn't go to uni. I couldn't hardly go to uni anymore. I only just finished my degree. I was a quivering wreck and he'd come back, like I say, and I kicked him out and I was screaming. I was screaming for him to get out my house and a neighbour ended up coming round and he just pushed me and I'd flown across the kitchen floor and he went, and then the following morning I thought oh God, what have I done? Blame myself. Back to blaming yourself, it's all my fault.
Speaker 2:My daughter had her dad back. We were supposed to be going to Florida. You know, look what I've done again. And I rang him and he literally tore me to pieces. What would I want to be? A daft little thing like you know. What would I want to be?
Speaker 2:with a daft little girl like you. You're a little girl, you're a little girl, you're a little girl. You're a slag, you're this, you're that and whatnot. Yeah, and I got off the phone and I rang my friend and I went I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know what I'm going to do. And she'd stayed really reserved around it all. I went I don't know what I'm going to do without him. What don't know what I'm going to do without him. What am I going to do? What am I going to do? She went Sarah, what have you done all your life? She said you've always come through. She said, and she tried talking to me. And then in the end she went Sarah, you need, I need to tell you now. And she talked everything through me. And I remember specifically I was on the phone 75 minutes and that 75 minutes changed my life, and 75 minutes changed my life and she went through everything.
Speaker 2:She showed me the domestic abuse cycles and she explained everything to me and it just twigged so she knew when the right time was to do it, because if she'd have done it before, you wouldn't have listened. And I'd have probably backed away from her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And isolated away from her Because I did with my parents. Yeah, you know, but like yeah, I did with my parents. Yeah, you know, um, but like yeah, and it just. And that's when I knew.
Speaker 2:I knew I had to go away and I and I went. I went and slept at a friend's house. I think I was there about three nights and all I did was drink from morning till night, morning till night, um, and while I was, while I was away at a friend's, he'd put like a big garage shed in my back garden and he'd just torn it down and took the stuff without waiting for me to come and take it. So all all my belongings was just all over my garden, just the lot, and yeah, and I just I knew, I knew, I knew that had to be it.
Speaker 2:I just I knew that had to be it. And then there was just more gaslighting, more abusive behaviour, and in the end I had to come to the decision where, after all them years, I had to stop my daughter from seeing him. I had to because she'd literally my daughter hadn't spoken to me properly for about six months and she was 11. Yeah. You know, and that is not normal. That is not normal for an 11-year-old not to want to go to her mum. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It was just so. So had he been saying things to your daughter about you then to get her on his side, sort of thing? You know you talk about the coercion. If you can be manipulated, how easy will it be to manipulate an 11-year-old child?
Speaker 2:What he was very clever at doing was if I tried to discipline Christina, or like, he'd wrap her up in his arms and it'd be oh, come on.
Speaker 1:Dan yeah, I've not done anything wrong.
Speaker 2:Doing everything for her. You know they would sit and debate what she was going to have for her dinner for about an hour and a half. I didn't have that type of time. I was at uni, I was DJing, you know, to try and earn some money, because I didn't get any help with the house, and I was constantly, constantly, constantly on demand, constantly, all the time. Um, yeah, and it was just, it was just, it was just awful it was just awful so you talk about the, the substance misuse as well.
Speaker 1:You talk about how you use together. I imagine that throughout this relationship and because of the abuse, you're finding escapism in substances and obviously you're using together as well. So it's not just escapism, it's almost bonding. It's codependency, as, as you know, as you've described it in the past. Talk to me a little bit about the, about codependency. Do you know? You've said here that, um, I've got a quote from you saying codependency is the root of all addictions. Now we haven't gone too much into your addictions here, but without even talking about it, I can completely understand how addictions to substances are occurring throughout this entire 11 you know, 13 year relationship that you've had.
Speaker 2:Talk to me a little bit about codependency so I've done a lot of work on it over the last 18 months. I wasn't aware it was something like I suffered with um, but what I've learned is, through kind of adverse childhood experiences, the trauma kind of leads to feeling like there's something missing.
Speaker 2:You know I've talked a lot about throughout this podcast that gap, that void and I've just always wanted to fill that, and for me it was people. But then it was also drugs and I I believe that that's why it's the root of all addictions, because when you codependent, you feel you have that void and you try to fill it. People fill it with gambling, people fill it with people, people fill it with sex. You know what, whatever, where, food, whatever works for them. You know, and it's that feeling of wanting to feel whole. You know, I, as well as that one relationship I was in and out of abusive relationships I would literally be with him. We'd split up, I would get with somebody because I went out with people who had drugs, you know so.
Speaker 1:You're always going to be with people where there are going to be some instability and some you know trauma that's going to be projected onto yourself as well yeah I'm not saying that you, you, you've, you know these things, but to go from and you're not the only person who's experienced this but to go from one unhealthy relationship to multiple unhealthy relationships. Why do you think that happens, whether it be your own experiences or with people in general? Why do you think they can move from one unhealthy relationship to another? Because I think, when we talk about probability, the chance of being with someone who's abusive and then your next relationship being abusive and your next relationship being abusive don't get me wrong, the chance is still high, but it's also quite slim. At the same time, there's something about the people, as you said, people who are, you know, using drugs as well, and being attracted to those people. Why that pattern is kind of happening, but why do you think you was attracted to those people?
Speaker 1:because it's what was familiar to me yeah, it's all you'd known sort of thing all I'd known from being a kid and would you say that you those relationships, whilst they was abusive, they felt normal to you? Yeah, so every relationship that you went in that just felt like this is what a relationship is yeah, if I was with anybody, nice, I didn't want to know how.
Speaker 2:Come well, the work I've done on myself, I've come to realize I don't think I deserved it. Okay, um, and it didn't feel familiar to me.
Speaker 1:So it was about familiarity and things like that.
Speaker 2:I remember going out with a guy when I was about 16 and it was the only boyfriend that my dad ever liked and it was amazing. And do you know what? Like he's married and stuff now and I'm in a you know, a really healthy, loving relationship now. But, like, as I got older, I thought like that's how I should have been that was the fork in the road, sort of thing. Yeah that that was. You know, that was the type of person I should have been with yeah you know, but it but it didn't.
Speaker 2:It wasn't familiar to me and I think, because I'd got away, when I'd first going back, when I'd first got away from the guy who I was with on and off for years, I lost my dad really suddenly when I was 22. And my dad was my life, he was my hero, he was my saviour, he was my everything and that just absolutely floored me. And that just absolutely floored me and I'd used previously, but I'd never used to blackout ever.
Speaker 2:You know, I was a bit of an animal, a bit of a party animal, but I knew when to put it down, do you know?
Speaker 2:and that is when that massive trauma completely just wiped me out, because it was very sudden. I got a phone call to say he was being rushed to hospital. I got to the hospital and he was dead. And he was dead. And that night changed my life like forever. Forever. And that's when I started drinking to blackout and that's when I completely stopped caring about myself. And you know, looking back I'd always felt kind of like abandoned because I had this void. So when people left codependency, you know, if somebody leaves, even when you want them to leave, it still feels like a massive gap. So you feel like you want them back, even though you don't.
Speaker 2:There's something missing something missing deep down inside.
Speaker 1:And you think them coming back will fill that void sort of thing. Yeah. Despite what behaviour they project onto yourself in terms of the abuse, whether it be verbal, physical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. And then after that I didn't feel like I had a protector anymore, because for me I'd been that little girl who watched loads of Disney films and the man always comes and saves you and all this stuff, and I never thought I could save myself, even though I have done.
Speaker 1:And I know that I can do that now.
Speaker 2:I didn't know that. So I thought, you know that's what my dad was there for. So when he went I just felt completely abandoned. Yeah, it's literally like I've had a lot of bad things happen in my life, but I'd say up until like this year it's been absolutely the worst me losing my dad Like there aren't even words to describe it. And if I could literally have one wish in the world, it would be to bring him back. Even now, like I still miss him every day now, and it's like and as a codependent, that's really difficult, you know, not being able to have somebody there who you're desperately, desperately craving for and knowing that he can never come back.
Speaker 2:And it was just the biggest shock of my life because he was quite a young looking guy. We thought he was fit, he had heart disease and we didn't know, just start suddenly of a heart attack. He was unconscious and it's one of them things that you see on the TV and you never ever in this life think it would ever happen to you. You know my dad was this big, strong, invincible guy who sorted everything, everything. You know he paid for the house, he paid for the bills, he made sure. You know he trained me at running as I was growing up. You know he did, did every.
Speaker 2:You know it was like my mom's husband and you know, and he sounds like as well, for for a long period of your life he's been the only healthy male figure in that life as well yeah, yeah, I mean, you know, and I had, I had my granddad, but I him, and then I had an uncle I was really close to and then I lost him to alcohol in 2015. So that was difficult as well and I think I kind of like, yeah, I felt so much pressure because I'd just lost my dad. My daughter was two years old. Just all the pressure. You know, I was worried about my mum. I'd just lost my dad. My daughter was two years old. Just all the pressure.
Speaker 2:You know, I was worried about my mum. I moved in with my mum. I'm not going to say that was totally selfless. I think I just wanted to get myself back on track as well, because I wasn't perfect at the time, a little bit behind in rent and stuff like that. So I can't say I fully did it for my mum, because that would have lying.
Speaker 2:I suppose I wanted to be with my mum, but that didn't last long. It was three months and she'd had enough of me. So, yeah, I'd had to find somewhere to live, because over the years, mine and my mum's relationship it's been difficult because she's got her beliefs, I've got my beliefs because, she's got her beliefs, I've got my beliefs and I think losing a parent I know it's not as young as some people, but I don't think it matters at what age that happens.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was just yeah, it was just one of them things you never, ever think is going to happen to you Like ever.
Speaker 1:And you always think they're going to be around forever as well. Think that's a natural thing is, and I do it now. It probably took my parents for granted in some respect. Maybe I should pick up the phone and ring my dad a little bit more, but in my head I've got plenty of time. He's always going to be there, yeah but, you have these conversations and, much like your experience, you never know what's around the corner, do you?
Speaker 2:you do. But also on the flip side, I think through doing the codependency work you do need like, I've realised I need to do what's right for me. Today I've adapted to worrying about everybody else, you know, and it was kind of all for selfish reasons because it was fulfilling something within me, but it's.
Speaker 2:I can't blame myself because it's just a way I'd adapted to living it's a way I'd adapted to surviving Was, if I do this for this person, I'm going to be in their good books. You know, they're going to be in my life. So if I just keep doing this for them and I was that scared of abandonment I would just keep doing and doing, and doing and doing, to absolute detriment of myself. You know, um, yeah, and I like yeah, and I didn't look after myself when I lost my dad. I didn't grieve properly out the job I was in at the time. I'd literally had a week off and they were ringing me to come back. I didn't want to go back. I was working 40 hours a week, like looking back now.
Speaker 2:If it was now, people would be like unions would be saying, right, you need to take those, you know. But at the time I was just that all over the place. I just didn't, yeah. So yeah, I think the pain of that will never go away and I think from that, even when I've come into recovery, I've made mistakes. You know I've, because I've not realised stuff. Because of the codependency and wanting that need to fulfil, I've not been aware of my surroundings and aware of how people actually do treat me and aware of how people actually do treat me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when I came into recovery, I'd not been in recovery long, only a few months and I got into a relationship with somebody who had a lot of years behind them, so I thought they knew best, obviously thought they knew best and I put them on a pedestal. And again, me being codependent but not realizing. You know just and when I say that I don't want it to come across that this was ever my fault, because it's the perpetrator's fault yeah it's never, ever the victim's fault.
Speaker 1:It does sound like you're blaming yourself a lot when you talk about this and I know you don't, but the way it's worded sometimes it's almost like you still have that idea that you are somehow at fault in some of this stuff.
Speaker 2:I think that's deeply ingrained stuff and I think since I've come into recovery as well, because some of the recovery stuff for me it doesn't bode well with me because the full blame's on you, it's all your fault. You're the reason why.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I guess we'll come up to talk about a 12-step programme a little bit later on, but there's so much about that about accepting your responsibility in this, and I guess there is some much about that about accepting, you know, your responsibility in this and I guess you know there is some truth in that. But for someone who's been in a domestically abusive relationship for 13 years and a byproduct of that trauma is, you know, losing yourself in substance, misuse, and it's a very, a contradiction.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and my belief is trauma is the reason for addiction. Gabamate I absolutely love Gabamate. I'm not. My trauma is and if I don't know that, that's not my fault.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I remember, like I said, I was in a cycle of of abusive relationships. I was with a guy, for about a year and a half, um not long after my dad died and we were.
Speaker 2:We took a lot of drugs together and stuff and I'd been on a night out and so d and I'd come home early because sometimes I knew when to come home. In the end I didn't, it progressed and progressed, but I knew when to come home. And I'd come home and I was laid on the set and I remember him prodding me and me waking up and I went are you doll? And he went oh, what you doing? And I went oh, I was missing you and I'm like I've come home. And he just called oh, what are you doing? And I went oh, I was missing you, like I've come home.
Speaker 2:And he just called me a slag and he nutted me and he constantly, constantly, constantly, repeatedly kicked me in my face. For what reason? I don't think I let. He's not with us anymore. I don't think I'll ever. He's not with us anymore. I don't think I'll ever get them answers. Yeah, I literally like he did that constantly, constantly. And then I remember Because I ran into the bathroom at one point, locked the door and he got in Never done anything like that before. I stayed with him for a short while after that, like I did, and nothing like that again. But it's the worst beating I've ever, ever had in my life, the one I was with on and off for 13 years that was more coercion and all that stuff, and it was almost as though he wasn't daft enough. He was that conscious of what he was doing yeah, the one I was with on and off 13 years.
Speaker 2:He wasn't daft enough to raise his hand yeah in the end.
Speaker 1:Well, he did when he was under the influence, but if he wasn't, but yeah and like, and just going back to that as well, just just to touch on that I think so many people, when they're in a relationship that is abusive but isn't physically abusive, will then not think it's an abusive relationship because they will excuse the verbal abuse and the coercion because it's like, oh, at least you don't hit me, because that is in our mind as well. I think when people talk about abuse, we instantly think to physical domestic violence and we don't think about those other things. I guess and correct me if I'm wrong but if you're in that relationship and you're not being physically abused, then it doesn't feel like an abusive relationship at the time. And was that kind of your experience? Like afterwards? Then you realised all these little things. Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. Yeah, because I was going to ask if he was physically abusive, but I'm, when you said he pushed you on the kitchen floor, I thought he must have been. But yeah, that's interesting that. So you probably went through that, because I, I guess the stigma of this as well is when someone's in a and I I've, you know very much, had this thought, you know, before I learned all of the things that I know now from working this field is someone's abusing you, just leave.
Speaker 1:Why are you going to stay there? If someone does that to you, why not just leave? And I think even now we still see it. It's someone's in an abusive relationship. It's like, well, then, just leave the relationship. And it's almost like it's made out to be such a simple thing oh, you've been physically beaten, leave. Oh, you've been coerced, you know you've. You've been, you know, verbally abused. Leave the relationship. We know it's not that simple, but there is that idea that it is a simple thing to just leave that relationship. But so many people don't even know they're in an abusive relationship to leave it to begin with.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and you've got to think. This is generational stuff. It was only the 15, 16, 1700s. If you was a woman and you disobeyed your husband, you would get dragged around by a metal bridle that attached to your tongue and your mouth and you'd be dragged and shamed around that town, that city, that village, and that stuff doesn't go away, just like you know, the far-right stuff don't go away. It just turns into different forms. That's all that happens, and now it is that coercion. I mean, thank god, in 2016 it became a criminal offense yeah you know, but I was, I was on something this morning.
Speaker 2:Uh, it was. I only went on for the lived experience talk and a woman shared that she's been out this relationship 20 years. She's only just. He never once laid a finger on her. She's only just started getting her hair cut at hairdressers. She's still. The things that he said to her are that deeply ingrained. And when I've done like the 12 steps and stuff like that, you know they were written a long time ago and I understand that and I know things have progressed. But when, when they're going to blame in you, when it's you and it's you and it's you, when you've been in an abusive relationship and you've been coerced and you've been gaslight and you've been told everything's your fault, you're back in that place. You're back in that place of thinking it's all my fault. That you know. I was always told it was, it was all my fault, you know. So you just you're back and it and it's. It's scary, it's a scary place to be.
Speaker 1:That stuff never goes away it never.
Speaker 2:I'm in a relationship now and I have to really work on this of not thinking and believing that he is this person that I have always been with, you know, because I've been with people who were neglectful, emotionally unavailable, you know, and then because I'm with somebody who isn't emotionally unavailable, who is emotionally available and whatever, and loves spending time with me, it's like what do they want?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Ooh, that could come in all the time Something's not right here?
Speaker 1:What are they trying to get out of this? Why are they being nice, yeah?
Speaker 2:there's always and I don't believe that this stuff will ever leave me Like and it's daily work that I have to do constantly, every day, to feel okay about myself. And people think that I think, people think that I think people think that, well, I've had this said to me, but you always seem all right and it's like I'm absolutely not. I have to wake up, I have to meditate or do my kundalini breathing, I have to write gratitude every day. I have to practice what I've learned in recovery.
Speaker 1:It's exhausting the amount of work that you have to do just to present as a and I'll use quotations for it as a normal person. Yeah, I can, I and I can relate to that. You know, just I. I will have people say oh well, you don't seem like you struggle with this, you don't seem like you struggle that. It's like I'm an absolute shell, it's exhausting to be me, but they don't see the work it takes just to present as an and I'm envious of normal people. You get to behave like that and you get to have them sort of that. You get to be at that level with no effort.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like fuck you do you know, like I want that.
Speaker 1:I wish I could be like that. Like it's so hard to get to just this normal level. Going back to what you're saying about, um, uh, you, you know your ex-partner. I think there's something in there about you know you. You you made a comment about he was too smart to not physically, you know, assault you. I think that's where we are with. A lot of domestically abusive relationships now is because of the stereotype of an abusive relationship being physical.
Speaker 2:A lot of abusers are doing everything but the physical part and they think they're being clever for it yeah, and I mean I'm not going to name the name of the celebrity, but there was somebody that kind of. Some text messages came out just about it was a few months ago, maybe a year ago, and it was so subtle and it was so sly, but the way they had coerced their partner into not being around other men and not being around you know, and all this stuff and the drip feeding yeah it's very, very calculated I just think it'd be exhausting to be that calculated as well.
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? Like what I don't again I'll not being someone who you know behaves in that way. I'll never be able to relate to or understand it, but it's. It's almost like the amount of effort you're going to to be that way. Yeah, they, where does that come from? Do you know as well that that's something I'd love to explore someone? But are you ever going to get someone who openly says, yes, I'm an abusive person and here's how I did and here's why I did it? I just can't see that happening.
Speaker 2:But I think you do and I think I think strength to change is a good example of that as well you got a point there of people coming forward and admitting yeah, it's, it's very low at the moment.
Speaker 2:I mean, I have some quite I think people would say quite controversial views. Don't get me wrong. I am never, ever taking it away that a perpetrator has made a conscious decision to do what they do. They absolutely have a you know, they are conscious of what they're doing, but we've got to understand what's got them to that place that's what I mean, yeah and it's pretty much their life, like you know, and is it lame behavior?
Speaker 1:because sometimes you know that's. You sometimes see that in adverts. There was an advert years ago and there was a clip and the dad's shouting at the mum and the mum's cowering on the floor and then it's the little child next to him shouting at the mum and all. And the idea is that there's some earlier examples like if you throw um your rubbish on the floor, your kid throws the rubbish on the floor. If you don't stop at the green light, then the kid doesn't stop and then it gets to the point where it kind of the behavior builds up. So there is there is an example or an idea there that abuse could be learned behavior.
Speaker 1:Now, I've learned things from my dad. Naturally I've learned a lot of things from my mum as well. Then there's a lot of external influence, social influences from school, from my peers, and I think you were in some way a byproduct of all those different influences and that's how you kind of be the person that you are. So I guess you know when you say what is it that got them to that point? I'm not saying it is the parents' fault exactly, but I'd be looking at it. I wonder what that relationship was like with the parents. I wonder what they witnessed as a child. To then normalise it as behaviour but again to be calculated in the way that we were just discussing, then that's a different kettle of fish. You can't watch someone be a calculated abuser. That has to be something that you kind of in some way do yourself, and that's in my opinion anyway. So we've got a lot I still want to go through, and you know you've openly talked about being a survivor of a rape attack. Would you be willing to talk about that today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely.
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