Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#54 - Shev: Teenage Motherhood, Pub Industry Drinking, Generational Patterns, Recovery Journey & Sober Festivals
Matt jumps straight in at the deep end as Shev shares the profound impact of shouldering responsibilities far beyond her years, including becoming a mother at just 17.
In this deeply personal conversation, Shev delves into the emotional challenges of abandonment, the strain and strength of familial bonds, and the role addiction played in shaping her path.
Reflecting on her transition from occasional drinking to dependency within the pub industry, she candidly discusses the societal stereotypes she faced as a single mother and her determination to rewrite her story.
Together, they uncover the power of community, family interventions, and the growing sober movement, showcasing how recovery offers not just an escape from addiction but the chance for a vibrant and fulfilling new chapter in life.
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Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma.
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We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.
This is a Renew Original Record. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast, award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or, as I like to say, your facilitator. Today, I'm with Shev, who shares her journey through family upheaval, addiction and recovery, offering deeply personal reflections on the generational patterns that shaped her life. Shev also discusses how her relationship with alcohol shifted from casual drinking to dependency, influenced by her time working in the pub industry. Through honesty and resilience, shev's story highlights the power of community recovery and embracing a fulfilling and sober life. Shev Hiya, welcome to the Believing People podcast. Thank you. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm alright. Good, I'm glad. A little bit nervous, I'm sure as we get into it We'll get into it.
Speaker 1:You'll be absolutely fine. I'm going to jump straight into it as well. Let's talk a little bit about why you're here and a little bit about your story. Where do you want to begin I?
Speaker 2:think I was thrust into of four I'm the oldest of four and I became probably their primary caregiver in a way, probably about nine or ten years old. Mum was working a lot yeah, stepdad was working a lot, you know. So there was really only me around to look after him.
Speaker 1:That always saddens me, that because I think about how important childhood is really and like, and I'm still very much connected to my childhood and you can see in the studio I've got some little toys and stuff like that around me I'm still a big kid at heart, sort of thing and it always upsets me when I hear about people who have these sort of situations where they are thrust into adulthood because it's a lot of responsibility to take on, and even now, at 33, sometimes I think I'm too young to be a grown-up.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I'm dealing with like grown-up? Things honestly I'm a grandparent and I feel exactly the same. You don't change, do you?
Speaker 1:that's that's the one thing that I've learned is, as you get a little bit older, you don't change. There was a song recently on this thing. I was watching my daughter and it's a and the the guy saying old people don't feel like old people. I'm'm not saying that you're old by the way. It's one of the things where, when you do see old people out there, they probably still feel how they did. I don't feel any different to when.
Speaker 1:I was about 18, 19. I just kind of stay the same. I'm sure there is change in my maturity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there's a lot of sadness there in a little way, because I think because I was sort of forced into maturing at an early age and having to take care of my siblings, summer holidays were spent looking after the kids. So even if I went out with friends, they tagged along. All my friends helped to look after him in the summer holidays. And then my mum moved to Cornwall when I was 15, going on 16, and I didn't want to go, and so I found somewhere to live with an older friend and they went. Mum didn't say you're coming, and you know, it wasn't until later that I kind of looked back and felt a bit abandoned by that you know, was you kind of hoping that she would have forced you to come?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I was in a little way, in a little bit, although, I was being defiant, but I don't, you know, I don't want to leave all my friends here and stuff. I think there was probably a part of me that was like no, you're coming please come. Yeah, you wanted to fight for it a little bit, yeah, yeah, I'd have felt the same way yeah, and then that kind of I was then thrust into this freedom that you wouldn't normally get at the sort of 16, and by the time I was 16 and a bit, I was pregnant so wow yeah, yeah, I had my first at 17 so I've never really had that
Speaker 1:yeah, that teenage years and they are, they are the sort of, as I call them, the informative years are they there, your chance to really sort of go out there and experiment and not just in terms of substance misuse, but just pushing those boundaries of society a little bit, aren't you? And finding out where you kind of fit in there, and I think to not have that. That is going to have a big impact on yourself. And so being a, being a mother at 17, then what was, what was that like?
Speaker 2:well, I mean, you know what it's like at 17. You think you can take on the world you can be good at anything. It's only when you look back that you go God, I was a child having a child. You have a flat of your own, You've got all these responsibilities. Your friends are going out without you. As soon as you turn 18, get a job. I got a job at the pub across the road.
Speaker 3:It's kind of gone from there really.
Speaker 2:I ended up as a pub manager. Further down, further on, it was just being my oldest for a while and, uh, it's a lot of responsibility. My dad would take him every other weekend. Give me a bit of freedom, he was understanding. He never judged me, that's good, yeah, he was great, kind of go that way, yeah, yeah and he realized that I was still a child and I did need to experience some sort of life, yeah, so that was good, yeah.
Speaker 1:What's your relationship like with your parents? Obviously, you said that your mother was working a lot.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think once they moved away, it became very distant. I even moved down to Cornwall at one point and felt like we were further apart. Oh really, yeah. Yeah, I didn't see her very often. Why was that? I don't know. Well, looking back now, I can see a lot of things differently At the time.
Speaker 2:I just thought she didn't really care. As a child, that's what you do. And I was still a child. I was sort of 18 to 20, needing my mum because now I'm a mum and trying to see things from a different perspective and have a relationship with her. I missed my siblings, you know. I missed my stepdad.
Speaker 1:Was your mum making any effort to be with your eldest at the time? No, I thought that might have been something being a grandparent.
Speaker 2:I did, yeah, I did.
Speaker 1:I saw something not so long ago which was quite interesting. It was talking about grandparents' involvement in our children's lives. If your child has a grandparent that's not involved in your child's life, it's probably because they never wanted to be a parent to begin with, and the grandparents that are heavily involved in their grandchildren's lives is because they're trying to relive those days they had with yourself when you was younger.
Speaker 2:See, I'm very conscious of that with my granddaughters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, are you real hands-on with them?
Speaker 2:I try to be, I try to be. But I've learned over the years, particularly through recovery, that I do need to balance. You know the fact that you know I used to sort of help everybody. I want to help everybody because then I didn't have to look at my own issues. That's it, yeah, you know so I never wanted to be the mum that my mum was, and I've been very, very lucky that my relationship with my children is infinitely better than my relationship with my mum. But my mum was a drinker.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:You know so and I know now that there were lots of things that she experienced during her sort of early adulthood and as she got older, with relationships and stuff like that that weren't great and that she you know there's a, there's a history of. It was manic depression back then, but it's bipolar now, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah?
Speaker 2:there is a history of that on that side of the family and so being able to look back now and be like, oh okay, I kind of get where this distance comes from I, I found that quite funny, really, and not like funny.
Speaker 1:But I think, um, there's a few things that I've come up with within my family that I had no idea about as a kid and I'm learning things now and I'm like why didn't I know that? Why didn't I hear about that? How come this wasn't said to me? You know how come? You, you went through that and you know we didn't know about it.
Speaker 1:And the reality is I was trying to protect you is what was said to me and I was like well, I get that, but I think it's kind of weird when looking back at my own childhood, when I think of it in a particular way, and then this part of me that looks it with a bit of sadness and actually none of that is kind of what I thought it was yeah it was just this version of it that I saw.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I guess that's life in a way, isn't it? Everyone has this. Everyone has a different version of events, and how different everybody's day-to-day lives are. I mean, even with your siblings, you know, your childhood may be viewed completely different to how your siblings viewed their childhood, and I don't know what the age gap is between you and your siblings.
Speaker 2:I know they're younger than you, obviously but there's four years between me and my assistant. I think she probably experienced things a lot different to what I did, or she had a knowledge of things that I didn't know, and vice versa. Maybe it's funny. I mean, you know, I sort of look, I look at my siblings now and you know they're I kind of. I know it might sound a little bit big-headed, but I kind of attribute some of their personalities and attitudes and the way they are in life and things like that and successes and things into.
Speaker 2:Maybe I had an input in that, because they were around me so much as children, and then there was this huge amount of time where we weren't together at all. So some of it I put down to the time we spent together, and others I'm kind of glad that they got away from manchester and moved to cornwall into this village and, you know, lived this slower pace of life and they're all just incredible people now.
Speaker 1:So so so being being a mum at 17, then it's going to come with its challenges. It's going to come with its stresses. You said you got the job at the pub across the road, and stuff like that did alcohol become a bit of a coping mechanism in the early days to to deal with that stress? No, not at first.
Speaker 2:No, I think I'd always had this idea that I never wanted to be like mum. Mum was the drinker.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think even from an early age it was conscious that that might be a thing one day. So I'd have a night out? Yeah, of course, of course I would, but it was never a weekly thing. I'd really enjoy myself when I went out once a fortnight, but there would be nothing in between. It was probably after I had the younger three and split up with their dad and I got a job in a pub again. I think I was very proud of the fact that I wasn't a statistic.
Speaker 2:You know, the statistical single mum on the council, on benefits and all that sort of stuff it was yeah, it was that kind of era where, oh, you had a baby and got a council house. I was like not, me.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna do it myself always been quite stubborn.
Speaker 2:So then you start socializing. You know, now you're single, so when the kids are at dad, you've got a free weekend and it kind of just went from there really slowly but steadily, you know, over a few years. And then it would be a case of then I got promoted. I was pub manager, so then you'd have a drink with your customers or you'd have a drink after shift and that would turn into two. But I wouldn't drink on my days off, you know.
Speaker 1:You don't see that that much these days when people work in bars. I think there's rules against it now.
Speaker 3:They're not really allowed to.
Speaker 1:I remember when I was a bit younger, you know, 10, 12 years ago. You sometimes see bar made behind having a drink and I never seem to see it these days when I'm in there, yeah, they still do it. So how, when it, when it, when did you realize it became a problem? Because I often found the interesting. Well, the interesting thing with alcoholism is how, as the story goes, no one wakes up and is suddenly addicted to alcohol it's a slow process.
Speaker 1:But I think the thing that I find interesting is surely at some point you realize, hang on, this is taking hold of me. It's kind of like. It's kind of like obesity in some way, like I think. At what point did you not realize, okay, you have to do something about this. You know, when you see people that have got really, really big yeah, like it's the same with alcoholism, I often think surely there was a point when you realized, hang on, this is starting to take over my life, or I'm drinking at times when I wouldn't normally drink in. Did you when I realized or when I admitted well, tell me when you realize it's the first one, the two different things. Tell me when you realized first the first one. There are two different things out there. Tell me when you realised first.
Speaker 2:When I realised it was probably I'd been through some issues at work and I think I'd realised that I just didn't want to work in pubs anymore. And it wasn't because of the drinking, it was just issues that were going on at the time with other management and things like that. And I went to work at um, a wholesale fruit and veg. It's night shifts, six nights a week, so I was basically using alcohol to get to sleep during the day, and then the kids were still young enough that I would still need to be up for when they came home from school, cooked dinner, that kind of thing weren't young kids, but you know yeah, old enough, still need a tea cooking.
Speaker 1:And yeah, yeah, how was your day did you do your homework, you know yeah old enough, still need a tea cooking and yeah, yeah, how was your day?
Speaker 2:did you do your homework, you know? And I realized that that was becoming a a six day a week thing.
Speaker 1:That's interesting yeah, using it as a as a thing to get to sleep on night shifts, that's.
Speaker 2:That's a new one where I worked they had, and it don't get me wrong in this in this place it's rife you know, everybody's a night worker. If they're not doing cocaine to stay awake through their night shift, they're having a drink so they can sleep when they get home and there's cafes dotted all around the market and they all sell alcohol. So everybody's drinking at 6, 7, 8 in the morning. Then they're going to the pub for breakfast. They're having a drink.
Speaker 2:Then they're going home, we're having a drink, yeah, and they're going home, we're having a drink, and then we're sleeping. London, it just doesn't sleep does it Never sleeps.
Speaker 1:That sort of area Never sleeps. It was in London at this time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm assuming, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it. It's like here Nope Shops are shut now Everything's open. You can?
Speaker 2:they have been it's yeah, I just think I remember finishing quite late not so long ago and was thinking I'll be shut now take a way up until like six in the morning. I was like jesus christ, that's insane. Yeah, I was doing that for probably four or five years and then I brought my ankle and I was laid up for two months and I I found Uber Eats and Deliveroo and I was like, oh, they deliver alcohol, because at that point the only times I wouldn't drink is if I didn't leave the house. So Sundays, basically I wouldn't drink because I wasn't going near a shop. But now I'm stuck in the house. So just get it delivered. I've never thought Uber Eats would contribute to alcoholism.
Speaker 1:But yeah, no.
Speaker 2:Just made it so easy it's an interesting point isn't it?
Speaker 1:So that was after five years.
Speaker 2:I mean, obviously I'd order other stuff, Of course. Yeah, so you don't want it to look too suspicious. Oh, I need a loaf of bread and a bottle of vodka. Here's a loaf of bread and four bottles of vodka.
Speaker 1:Yeah yeah. That's interesting isn't it how that works out.
Speaker 2:So when did you admit it was a problem? Then I'd returned to work. I'd probably been back at work a couple of years and then I remember getting home one day and thinking I don't remember buying that. Oh okay, I'd been in the shop and I'd kind I don't. You know, I can't even remember what I'd bought, but by the time I got home I thought I don't remember buying this vodka. It becomes such a part of my routine. I didn't even register buying it anymore and then it was a real quick downward slope, because now I'm like oh my god, I'm a mum. Oh my god, I know it's been a problem.
Speaker 3:I'm a mum.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, I know it's been a problem, but I thought I was handling it Clearly not. And now it's gone from half a bottle a day to a bottle a day. You know, full bottle of vodka every single day. But at this point I realised I was saving enough for the morning and waking up earlier for my shift in the morning to have a straightener, because I was shaking so much every morning and that's when and I was starting to have some health issues and seeing my gp- did you was the health issues related to alcoholism predominantly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, now I know that yeah I was having lots of sort of blood pressure issues and palpitations, anxiety attacks, stuff that I'd never experienced before, Did you so?
Speaker 1:did you not link them to the drinking at the time? Did you think these were separate issues?
Speaker 3:I mean yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course I did. Were you open with your GP about the alcoholism.
Speaker 2:Not at first. Not at first I was embarrassment more than anything. Yeah, I knew the kids were old enough by that point.
Speaker 1:How old was your eldest at this?
Speaker 2:point. Oh, my eldest, my youngest, would have been. She's 23 now, so it's been two and a half years. She would have been about 18, 19.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:So my eldest would have been around 25.
Speaker 1:Had they not noticed anything?
Speaker 2:Oh God yeah.
Speaker 1:Did they?
Speaker 2:Yeah, did they ever talk to you about it. Do you know what? They never. They'd make comments here and there, yeah, but I think it started out that I was cool mum and I would party with Because I'm younger.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, there's only a 17-year-old age gap, isn't there?
Speaker 2:Between my oldest and his mates.
Speaker 1:He was 34 by the time you were 17.
Speaker 2:Yeah, everybody around, it's not a problem, clear up after yourselves, you know they'd make the odd comment. But then I turned into a bedroom drinker and then the bedroom just started piling up and I stopped hiding it, I stopped caring, I became. I was there. They could come to me about anything, but I was looking back now I know I was very absent Physically. I was there. I meant to say absolutely not. And then I can't remember. My GP had slowly he's fantastic, honestly this man saved my life. He really did. He slowly, gently, coaxed out of me just how serious it was over the course of about three or four appointments and put me in touch with CGL.
Speaker 1:Okay, really yeah. So how long ago was that then?
Speaker 2:uh, so we're going just about two minutes. It was november 21. Okay, it's quite early days and I suppose it's only been a few years well, it's actually a month or two before that, yeah that he put me in touch. I had an assessment and then I was waiting to be allocated and then I had some blood tests.
Speaker 1:I guess the interesting thing here is one of the things that we often talk about here is how addiction to substances is often related to some form of trauma, whether that be childhood or adult. But to hear that you experienced an alcohol dependency because you was working night shifts. That in itself is is kind of like to me.
Speaker 2:I don't know whether I can blame it on that. No, I mean. No, I'm not my family history probably actually that was.
Speaker 1:They'll go for that way, then, because some people often say that um addiction, the disease of addiction, is inherited for our parents not not always, of course. You know. Some people can have some problems with substances and their parents don't have any problems at all. Do you think that's the case for yourself? Do you think there was something inherited? Possibly I was so determined to not that's the interesting part of this which, to this day blows my mind.
Speaker 2:when I woke up one morning, looked in the the mirror and thought that's your mum, you know, looking back at you, and I'd said every morning for such a long time I can't do this anymore.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was only my GP that. I didn't know what was available to me. I didn't know that I could just walk through the door of a recovery service without a referral.
Speaker 1:I think some people don't even know what recovery services are and how they work. I had no idea even people that know them don't necessarily know how they work. It's one of the things that we sometimes see people coming through the door expecting us to wave a magic wand and be like, right, you're fixed. Alcohol dependency is gone, go live your life, sort of thing. In terms of abstinence, did you? What was it like to realise that? Actually, I'll say this could you drink now if you wanted to, or would that trigger a full?
Speaker 2:on, I don't trust myself.
Speaker 1:You don't even trust yourself to do that.
Speaker 2:Not yet. No, I may never trust myself. Good.
Speaker 1:That's not a bad thing, is it? No, I stay very aware of that all the time. I'm quite proud of the fact that I know I don't trust myself. Yeah, yeah, that's good, because some people will go through this process of alcohol dependency and they will have the detox to um help with the physical dependency.
Speaker 2:But once you're no longer physically dependent, they think oh well, now I can go back to social drinking on occasion without realizing actually there's the mental thing, that's going to send it into a full-on relapse and you're going to be back to square one oh, I think for me, because I'd had some blood tests done and then, while I was waiting for a key worker and then a few weeks later I had some more done and my gp called me and said I need to go to the hospital today and I spent, I think, a week in hospital, most of which I don't remember.
Speaker 1:I was hallucinating and was that from the alcohol withdrawal? Yeah, talk to me about the hallucinations. Can you remember what you hallucinated? I can remember.
Speaker 2:It's funny now when I think about it. Now, it's not, it's really not funny.
Speaker 2:I can remember I was lying in the hospital bed and it kept feeling like somebody was cuddling up behind me and I just assumed it was one of the children. But there was nobody there. But the funniest bit that I remember is there was kind of like a yoghurt on my bedside and I thought I'm hungry and I would bring the spoon to my mouth and it would disintegrate as it got to my mouth. So that was the first sign. But I just put that down to tiredness. And then I had had a chat with my dad and my son and my dad said oh, I need to go. I need to go back to the hotel. Your stepmum's there. I said okay, I'll just get my coat and I'll meet you down there. I go outside. There's nobody there.
Speaker 2:So I called my son and I said where have you gone? I said I'll be straight down. He said talking about. I said you and granddad were just here. Granddad's at home in Manchester, mum, he's not come down. I had a full-blown conversation with both of them and then it was again I'm putting it down. I blamed my son. I said you're gaslighting me.
Speaker 1:I can't believe you're lying to me?
Speaker 2:Why would you make me feel like I'm going crazy? And then, later on in the day, I went to go out again for a cigarette and they stopped me and said no, and I couldn't understand why I'd been out three or four times. Why are you not letting me now? And then, three days later, I woke up in a side ward, the security guard at the end of my bed, the door open. I was mortified. I was terrified that I'd hurt somebody.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's all I could say was please tell me I didn't hurt anyone.
Speaker 1:So what had happened.
Speaker 2:The nurse said you just, you got scared because we wouldn't let you leave. Okay so you just kind of you felt a bit penned in, you got verbal. But you didn't get physical she said you've got a colourful tongue, I'll give you that. I was just like, okay, please don't so sorry. Yeah, we made light of it and then but it was weeks later I was talking to the kids about it and they were like mom, you were calling everybody, you were texting them, they've kidnapped me.
Speaker 2:We've got to get a van. They've kidnapped your sister. We've got to go after this gang. And I'm like what? Yeah, Apparently I was just calling everybody to come and get me.
Speaker 1:What was that like? Obviously, you spoke to your children about it. What was it like for them, do you know? They said much about it.
Speaker 2:Well, my eldest had come to see me in the hospital and he said at one point Mum, you looked at me like you not despised me, but you didn't know who I was and you were so sort of like defensive You'd so sort of like defensive, you'd be talking to me normally and then you'd blank and then talk to me normally again.
Speaker 3:He said I had to call.
Speaker 2:He had to call his sisters and his brother and said I'll come to the hospital.
Speaker 1:I don't want you to see her like this. Yeah, you know it's scary. The hallucinations I mean I that was the one thing that I wasn't aware of you when I first kind of started doing this was um hallucinations from alcohol withdrawal. I'd heard them from drug withdrawal and I thought, because you know, because the way drugs are sort of, I guess, displayed in media, you know, and how is it? Train spotting is a good example where the guy's you know having his withdrawal and he sees the baby crawling on the roof and things like that. But speaking to people about alcohol withdrawals and some of the hallucinations that they had, I didn't think that would be a thing from alcohol.
Speaker 1:But of course, technically it's probably a really powerful drug for your receptors to experience, isn't it?
Speaker 2:And I'm one of the luckier ones, I just had hallucinations. It could have been so much worse. I was in aier ones, I just had hallucinations. Yeah, it could have been so much worse. Yeah, I was in a safe environment. I was in the hospital. You know it was a controlled withdrawal. So I was one of the lucky ones, okay, but I think, talking to the kids after when I got home and just seeing how worried they were, that that spared me to. I was like it, I'm done.
Speaker 1:I can't waste this opportunity that I've got yeah I just couldn't and have they said much about it since. How do they feel about where you are now?
Speaker 2:I guess, I mean, I I think, oh, they're so proud of me good, so proud and they make it known that they're very proud of me. Yeah, and I know that while I was in the hospital there were lots of discussions it was the end of november, christmas was coming up. They'd all agreed to have a dry Christmas. You know all these little conversations and research and all sorts of stuff that they'd done.
Speaker 2:That's so nice yeah, and I think, looking back now, the fact that they never asked me to stop drinking makes me and I've never asked them, but it makes me think that they were doing research way before that happened. How do we support her? Yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's nice because I I've shared this story before. But doing a, an outreach with someone alcohol dependence and and the daughter saying why are you telling her to keep drinking? You know she needs to stop? I have no idea about the physical impact and and the risk that can happen if someone did just go cold take from alcohol you know, correlated seizures, all these things that can happen when someone comes and just suddenly stops drinking. So for them to do that research, because they must have, otherwise they would have asked you yeah to stop drinking yeah had they not known, had they not done the research?
Speaker 1:that'd have been the first thing they probably would have asked you?
Speaker 2:yeah, they said little things like you know. Are you okay? Do you need to talk to anyone? I'm fine.
Speaker 1:I like the fact that they haven't just disowned you as well. That's something you hear quite a lot. It's oh, my dad's using drugs, my mum's drinking, just that's it, their only concern was when I said that I wanted to go back to festivals.
Speaker 2:Okay, you could see the little uh-oh. I thought I'm going to be good, I'll do my research, I'll be fine. I've got no intentions of drinking and I've got an incredibly supportive friend group, so they're like my biggest cheerleaders.
Speaker 1:So what was the moment in particular where you decided to go to your GP and talk about, I guess, what was the thing that made you open up to your gp to begin with? You said you, there was a lot of embarrassment there.
Speaker 2:What was the part where you thought right, I need to tell him about this he'd asked me a couple of times how much I drink, and then I realized that I was going to work at night. I was drinking on my way home from work and I would not. I could go to an appointment any time of the day with my gp because I work nights. I was stinking of alcohol all the time. It was a smell that never went away. You know you think you drink vodka. Nobody can smell it. Who are we fooling? You know it's like it's one of the strongest smelling ones.
Speaker 1:Actually vodka, yeah, I know it's the only one. You will smell it's very distinctive, yeah.
Speaker 2:And he would just ask me say you know, is there anything you want to talk about?
Speaker 1:Is there you want to tell me about your drinking? I'm like, no, no, I'm good. How come like work didn't flag it? I guess you said it's quite common for people to get a drink to. You talked about cocaine.
Speaker 2:Used to stay away drinking to get sleep that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:They're all doing it.
Speaker 2:I found out one of the guys that I worked with actually used to work for me in the pub, so we knew each other really well. You know we would be parted together over the years. He he knew my children. So he was quite a heavy drug user himself at particular situations Not daily, but he knew how to party. And eventually at some point he messaged me outside work and said Listen, as your friend, people are noticing. Okay, yeah, you know, I just want to know you're okay again, really supportive why is everybody, why is everyone being nice to me, you know?
Speaker 1:why does everybody care? Yeah, I just found it funny from an employer perspective not to flag it. I mean, here it's different, we're working a drug and alcohol treatment service. There's reasons why. Do you know if someone come in moving a slate with alcohol?
Speaker 2:it'd be instantly investigated. The actual bosses were in semi-retirement at that point, so they weren't in very often no, yeah, so just go and do your shift and go on as long as the work's being done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and was you turning up to work under the influence or it depends how you work your classes.
Speaker 2:Under the influence I'd had a straightener okay, okay, yeah, so I was probably as sober as.
Speaker 1:I was going to be yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know I worked all through COVID like that as well. So, you know it was stressful. We were busier than we'd ever been, you know. So I've been travelling home on empty trains in the morning. Yeah, it's bizarre.
Speaker 1:Yeah, imagine COVID in London. It would have been a weird time.
Speaker 3:You know that opening scene to 28 Days Later. I was about to say was it the 28 Days Later?
Speaker 2:I've got a picture on my phone somewhere of my train from one end to the other that I was on and I could see the feet of maybe two other people on the entire train.
Speaker 3:I sent it to my dad.
Speaker 2:I was like it's on my way home from work, dad.
Speaker 1:It's one of the things where, like you know, if I could go back, that's probably one of the places that I'd go to, because I only went to london for the first time a couple of years ago with work I'd never been to london before london's incredible. I do really enjoy it. Now. I often kind of put it down to funny enough. It was more. I kind of liked the fact I'd never been to london. In some way it was one of the things I've never been.
Speaker 1:I've been to all these places in the world, but I'd never been to london and I went with work on time and, like I say, it's always so busy and one of the things that I find interesting about london is I'm quite an anxious person and I find that in london I don't get very anxious because you're just blending just nobody cares.
Speaker 2:Nobody cares, everyone's got no shit you just, you're just disappearing to a crowd of people don't make eye contact.
Speaker 1:That's the week up north.
Speaker 2:We're a lot more friendly do you know, I'm a northern even now, and I've been down there longer than I was up north so, but even still, I find it difficult. Sometimes I'm like morning yeah, that's the thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah do I know you like no, just think. Do you know what we do? What was the rock bottom moment then? What was the worst moment that you had during the alcoholism? Not necessarily the moment where you decided to open up. I'd already decided.
Speaker 2:I know when it was.
Speaker 2:I'd already decided to get help. I'd told the kids that I was getting help and nobody had been in my bedroom for a long time. You could barely see the floor Just bottles, bottles, just trash. I just lived in this room and my son came to visit and just, I think my daughter had said something and he just barged straight into my room and went oh, mum, went downstairs, came back with bin bags, and I think it was the fact that they never said anything to make me feel bad. They never did anything out of judgment, they just started clearing up and it broke my heart.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I get upset thinking about it. Yeah, why does it upset you? Just because they're incredible. Proud of them, of. Yeah, it's nice. Yeah, I very rarely get emotional unless it's about them.
Speaker 1:I'm incredibly proud of them so what was the most important thing in terms of well, not necessarily the most important, but what was the most helpful thing for you when achieving abstinence? Group work, because a lot of people don't like group work, do they?
Speaker 2:And I don't know why.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I understand the anxiety of joining a new group of people and talking about your deepest, darkest secrets. Yeah, I get it. But when you explain to people that it's not like maybe AA where you have to stand up and tell your story, or this is what people are told. If you don't want to talk, you don't talk. But listen, yeah, because everybody's at different stages of their sobriety. They might only be just entering into recovery.
Speaker 2:They might be three months down the line and they're they're invaluable, these people, in supporting you. They know how you're feeling, they know what your barriers are, they know how you're anxious you might be feeling, they know why you might be experiencing certain emotions. If you're a month in or six months in, they can give you the best tips and advice and they just get it. I mean, what more can you? Yeah?
Speaker 1:I guess I could. Yeah, I mean, I I get it, I think I would. I I think I would struggle being a group environment, but that's because I'm quite a quite a private person. I think I'd find it hard opening up about things and sometimes in you in certain situations, and you've got strong characters in there and you've got your ones that even you know you might have experienced staff training, and you've got the couple of people that can answer everything and they'll talk and there's the people that just don't say anything for the whole eight hour day, um, and then I kind of found myself falling into the middle a little bit or speaking if nobody else speaks and things like that.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think that's where I would struggle with with the big personalities and the big characters. And advice is an interesting one as well, because sometimes I'd I always say this, but I've got different friends for different things. If I want advice, I'll I'll go see one of my other friends If I want someone to just listen. I'll go see one of my other friends.
Speaker 1:If I want someone to tell me stop being an idiot, sack up, you know sort of thing, I'll go to one of my other mates. I've got three people that can offer very different perspectives on things and I think that's where I would find myself in a group is the unwanted advice. Did you find that people sort of giving you advice and telling you oh, you need to try this, you need to try this.
Speaker 2:I'm open you. Well, I don't have to take your advice. No, no, but he was polite enough to listen. Yeah, yeah, and then I might not take everything on board right there and then, but as my week went on before the next group session, I'd be pondering this stuff. Yeah, I'd be thinking about it every now and then, you know I might try that yeah you've got to try every when you're in recovery.
Speaker 2:You've got to try everything If you want to succeed. Just be a sponge, soak everything up, listen to what everybody's got to say, try everything and just do whatever you need to do for yourself.
Speaker 1:You can't be stubborn in that environment your stubbornness is what probably led you to some of those situations, isn't it the?
Speaker 2:only bit about the stubbornness. And my dad would tell you this I am very stubborn. And he said to me when I got sober. He said I never thought that stubbornness would come to use. Yeah, but that's what keeps me sober being stubborn, I'm stubborn yeah, I'm not gonna tell and show anybody that I'm a failure, absolutely not and that's why I tell everybody that I've got sober and I'm in recovery and I don't drink. Why not? Because I don't drink doesn't like me. I no longer like drink.
Speaker 1:Do you feel any judgment there? When you tell people you don't drink, do people question why are you drinking? Why are they saying everybody always?
Speaker 2:you know that's, it's quite a common see the question, the face, even if they don't say it. I think it all depends on who you're with. Don't ever feel like you have to say, if you just respond with I just don't, that's enough. I just don't want to drink.
Speaker 1:It's just an interesting conversation why are you drinking, why are you taking heroin? Why are you?
Speaker 3:drinking. I was like you know why are you taking heroin?
Speaker 1:Why are you taking methamphetamines? Why don't you want some of this crack? Nobody asks, do they? But when it comes to drinking, it's because of that, the normality of it, and I'm someone who drinks, you know, and socially I don't have a problem with alcohol myself, but I do recognize that it is poisonous. Yeah, you know, I recognize, like, how damaging it can be in large quantities pushed on people.
Speaker 1:exactly. It's bizarre, isn't it? You know? Even you know when I really think about it and it makes me sound like a bit of a drip. To be fair, you know, if people who you know don't have addiction problems, don't have dependency problems and can't drink socially, but yeah, the idea of the adverts that we see on TV, the posters, the radio adverts, all the stuff around alcohol, it's like try this rat piss, try this poison. It's just in your face so often and it's yeah, it's just quite a bizarre thing that we just kind of accept as as normal isn't it that the way it's advertised as the way it's pushed it all it really depends on what I'm with.
Speaker 1:What time of year did you get?
Speaker 2:sober, end of november, our worst time.
Speaker 1:Well, you mentioned about you, about christmas then. So what was the? What was the fact? Because so many people worry about that first christmas. But I always say there isn't a good time to get sober because in summer you've got the beer gardens and winter you've got the whole New Year's drinking and stuff.
Speaker 2:I think, because most of my friends don't live where I live, so we only ever really see each other in a party environment, in a celebratory or festivals or somebody's birthday. So they used to see me drinking, they. They used to see me happy, in a good mood and enjoying life, so I didn't really need to explain to anybody I was never put in a position.
Speaker 2:The only people that needed to know were work, who were incredibly supportive because they knew they'd seen it happening so so I never had to explain really to anybody. Anybody that was in my life knew why I wasn't drinking. And then, slowly but surely, as I started to sort of you know, I'm going to really have to start socialising if I want to go back to festivals. So it started with a friend's birthday in Oldham.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I thought, oh God, and at this point the sort of inner circle of the bigger circle of friends, everybody knew nobody had asked me, but it had got around through my closest friends and, uh, I just remember people saying today I'm so sorry we didn't know so you just pulled the exact same face that I did, really confused. What are you sorry for? Yeah, I didn't tell you. I didn't tell you I had a problem. Yeah, but we should have known how would. We're always drinking when we're together. We're always celebrating something.
Speaker 2:Why would you have noticed?
Speaker 1:yeah, because normal, isn't it? Yeah, normal, you don't see me every day my normal day-to-day life.
Speaker 2:So you wouldn't have.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't have had a clue you said your kids were worried when you said you wanted to go back to festivals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're a big festival goer I imagine I love it, love a good festival. I don't go abroad or anything. No, that's my, that's your holiday, yeah festivals are synonymous with getting absolutely shit-faced taking you know party drugs, ecstasy, mdma, you know all of it.
Speaker 1:All all those substances kind of go hand in hand with festivals. It's one of the things that we just attach to it you know as as the normality of it. Yeah, talk me through going to your first festival sober, because I think going to your first party sober can be quite intimidating that was really intimidating because it was all eyes on me, everybody knew the situation and you could see there was still a little.
Speaker 2:do we ask her about it, do we not? So nothing really was said. It was a couple of hugs. You know, I've got your back, chef. That's really nice. Thank you. Nobody sort of offered me a drink, and which I expected, because why wouldn't they offer me a drink?
Speaker 2:they're so used to it, you know first festival back was bearded theory in derbyshire. So it's the second bank holiday in may 2022. And it was incredible, just so much support. People would offer me a drink and go God, sorry, I'm like no, don't be sorry. And the amount of times I would say sorry until and it was always the same person until eventually it just became a running joke between us. And he still offers me a drink to this day because he's just part of this running joke.
Speaker 2:We've talked about this you you know, but it would be a case of they just would apologize over and over again. If I only know this. Conversations change every year, but they open up to me more every year about how they feel about it and it's like oh, I won't even ask you to hold my drink, why I'm gonna drink. Would I have drunk your drink before?
Speaker 2:yeah no, no, so you know, and all these little things where they're doing stuff to try and make me more comfortable that I'm unaware of, you know, but I had to say to them listen, it's not your responsibility to remember that I don't drink yeah it's my responsibility to say no.
Speaker 2:You are not responsible for making sure I don't drink and everybody's really chill now. If they turn round at a certain time of night and I've disappeared, it's just because they're at a level of drunk that I can't keep up with now. So I'll take myself off to watch a comedy show or go and see the weird and wonderful that you miss does it make you feel uncomfortable with people drinking around you?
Speaker 1:Not anymore.
Speaker 2:No, not anymore.
Speaker 1:To begin with, I'm guessing.
Speaker 2:I don't think it was the drinking. I think it was me being socially awkward, being so used to alcohol in social settings that I just felt really awkward. And it was only this year that I realised I take non-alcoholic drinks. So you know, because vodka was my thing, I won't touch non-alcoholic spirits. Beer and ciders was never my thing. I'm quite happy with a non-alcohol. But I realise it's not having the drink that I miss, it's just the holding a drink in a social setting, and it only occurred to me this year, because I was standing there without one at one point.
Speaker 1:I was so awkward I was ought to ask when you said about feeling awkward around people, because that is me Like. Sometimes I have to be holding something in my hand, like if I'm at a party and I don't have anything.
Speaker 1:I just feel really awkward, like I should be holding something. You know Not all call it bees be holding something. You know, non-alcoholic beers are great. I've spoken with them at length, you know. I think that for people if I ended like you just said, then spirits, if you had a non-alcoholic gin or something, that could be a massive trigger for you if people have, you know, alcohol, you know problem, and specifically with ligers or sardas, it's going to be a massive trigger for them, isn't it?
Speaker 1:you know? Because it's the taste, isn't it as well? But yeah, that holding something yeah that's something that, funny enough, we've spoke about with people before. That could be a true. That could be a trigger for someone actually who have spots on this podcast, if they was holding something that resembled a pint or something yeah he's an actor doing something in a play.
Speaker 1:He had to hold a wooden pint glass. At first he was only thinking oh god and that was almost quite triggering for him yeah to be just beholding something, but I I similar to the mindset of you.
Speaker 2:I would have to feel like I need something in my hand to not feel awkward yeah, I think even I knew, I knew I sort of held myself back a little bit at the start I was like you know, I'm in this whole new, it's this new chef.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are they going to think of me? I'm a boring, you know that kind of stuff. I was always the one up dancing and now I can see the sort of the last three festival seasons progress and how far I've come. Now I just don't care. I don't care, I'm up dancing, I'm enjoying myself as much as anybody else. I'm dressing up in the stupid costumes and I finally realised that that chef was always there. I didn't need the alcohol, I just thought I did.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To have a good time and it's really nice when friends are now coming to me going. You know you're still our chef, right, and we thought you'd think that we were boring or we were weirdos or you'd see us differently. That never occurred to me that they would worry how high I now perceive them because I'm sober, but they're an incredible support network that I've got.
Speaker 1:I'm really lucky. Just on the topic of that, I think that is because you only said about that pressure, but you're having a drink, you're having a drink. I think sometimes that is part of it. They want to be able to act stupid, but don't feel like they can act stupid if someone is around them. Who will remember? Who will judge them?
Speaker 2:Oh, I'll make a big deal out of pointing out that I'll remember. I'll make a big deal out of it. I've got stuff on you lot from last night.
Speaker 1:I started to drive when I was around 21, which again big drinking years at that age. I remember going to one of my first big drinking years at that age. I remember going to one of my first parties and it was at the other end of the city so I drove there so I didn't drink and I enjoyed that experience so much because it was so nice to go home when I wanted to go home to remember everything that had happened, and it was one of the times where I felt like I really enjoyed myself with no alcohol so nice to remember the party that I never did festival sober before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, it's just, it's like I do. I'm doing them all for the first time. I remember everything. I feel great, I do stuff that I never would have done before because I was just following the party around you know, and now you're doing what you actually want to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I see so much more.
Speaker 2:I experience so much more at festivals now and I think there's a real lack of knowledge for people that are going to festivals. Sober now the sober scene at festivals is a lot bigger than people think. Nearly every festival that I've come across or looked at has got things in place, whether it's just a Facebook group or you know. I think I was talking about one earlier, about the one in Derbyshire. They've got a couple that run a woodwork stall or something and they've got a safe space behind their stall for people if they're struggling with a sprite at the festival. Glastonbury has three CA, three AA meetings every day during the course of the festival. It's incredible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that I love hearing that as well, because you know we talk about the association of festival drugs, alcohol. It's not like that at all. I've learned quite a lot about Glastonbury this year alone, talking earlier since becoming a parent. The things that are there for children, like families go to Glastonbury. I had no idea that was a thing. Families go, go to Glastonbury.
Speaker 2:I had no idea that was a thing. Families go. There was a CBB. We try and borrow our friends children to go in the kids field because there's amazing stuff going on in there and we're not allowed in without children. It was on CBBs. I know that sounds really weird.
Speaker 1:Well yeah, for obvious reasons. You can't just let random adults into the kids but yeah, I watched them on CB and it was all set at Glastonbury. It looked class. It's incredible. I thought this looks really good as far as a family-friendly event goes. That looks absolutely amazing.
Speaker 2:And then what you see on the TV when they're showing it on the BBC. That's just three or four of the main stages.
Speaker 3:There were 82 stages there this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the healing fields. It's incredible. I love it. I'm going to a real hippie fest in a couple of weeks. Actually, go on, tell me about that, into the wild. Yeah, it's like 200 workshops. You can do anything from yoga to, I don't know, throat singing and making long bows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Flower crown. You say hippie festival.
Speaker 3:I absolutely love it In the 70s, sort of.
Speaker 1:In the 80s, a hippie festival would have been like sitting around getting high and things like that wouldn't it? So it's almost taken a bit of a. There's no alcohol on sale. Yeah, complete 180 really. So what it would have been 50 years ago? People can take it if they want, but they're not selling it on site.
Speaker 2:Okay, Just a real wellbeing back to nature. I can't wait.
Speaker 1:Connect with yeah.
Speaker 2:My daughter and her partner are coming as well, they were going to drop me off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and he was like no you can stay.
Speaker 2:He looked at the website and he was like oh, bushcraft, we're coming. I was like, okay.
Speaker 1:That's amazing. Yeah, what advice would you give to people, shiv, who are maybe struggling with alcohol dependency or, you know, maybe in sobriety, you know, feeling the temptations or, like you said, you've started going to social events now? Yeah um, and some people in sobriety don't feel like they can put themselves out there to do sociable things out of fear of relapse. What advice would you give to people?
Speaker 2:talk, just talk. You know I think what's worked for me is just telling everybody, just then. I know that I can say do you know what I'm struggling today? I just want to chat. I know I can pick up the phone to any of my friends, any of my colleagues even, and say do you know what I'm not doing good today? You know, just talk and talk and talk. And you know, do your research. You've always got to put your management in place. Even now I'm still putting management in place. So I know if I'm going to this function or that festival, I'll put some research in what's available. You know, and I've now started being one of those people that somebody can reach out to at a festival.
Speaker 3:Well, that's good yeah, we're on facebook groups and I'm going, if you want to reach out and because it's their first time and to be fair.
Speaker 2:A lot of people are doing it just out of choice. They're not doing it because they have to be sober or they've got an issue with alcohol.
Speaker 1:They're just trying to festival sober. Yes, again, it's something that I'm seeing quite a lot more.
Speaker 2:We just talked about non-alcoholic beers.
Speaker 1:There seems to be more options for non-alcoholic options, more options for non-alcoholic options, but that's partly because the movement is so big, especially with younger people. People want to remember, as we're just saying, people want to remember the nights out and, yeah, there's a lot of things out there at the moment of, um, do you know night out safety? Um, you know drinks that are being spiked and all these sort of things that so many people, really younger people, are really conscious of it. And I think you've seen a really big, almost sober movement now, and it's not because people are having problems, it's because they want to experience these things that we're talking about.
Speaker 2:So I think, if I was to, I think the biggest advice really for anybody going back to socializing in those kind of environments is just start slow, don't push yourself too soon. So, god, dip your toe in. Maybe have a night out at a restaurant or a pub with a bunch of trustworthy friends, people that you can really rely on, that are okay if you leave, you know and then maybe try a one-day festival without a stayover and always have a backup option, an escape route or somebody you can turn to.
Speaker 1:And just to touch on now, you know you're working with Change Girl Live. You did your detox with them. You're working now as a as a peer mentor with the dwp project.
Speaker 2:Tell me a little bit about how that came to be and why it's important to be doing that work uh, I think I got to about halfway through africa and I was still working in that night shift pace and I thought, oh god, all of a sudden, this, this safety bubble that I've been, I've been in for the past nine, ten months, it's not going to be here.
Speaker 2:What am I going to do? And I knew that going back to a night shift job wasn't the way. I still went back. I think I was back for quite a long time, maybe a year or so but I knew what I wanted to do. I knew I wanted to be in this environment helping other people, because I remember it was like walking through the doors for the first time on my own, yeah, and being able to talk to somebody who has been there and done it is so much easier sometimes. So, yeah, I went for the volunteering, the peer mentoring I think I'd just completed the training for that when, in a bit of sweet circle, the person that had initially assessed me for the recovery service told me about this job and I was like that's kind of nice, that yeah, full circle yeah.
Speaker 1:And just as she was leaving, actually, oh yeah, yeah, so yeah, it was kind of a parting gift was to yeah, yeah yeah, and she really pushed me.
Speaker 2:She was like what have you got to look? I didn't think I was ready. What have you got to lose? What's the worst that can happen, everything we say now yeah to our clients. So I went for it and here I am. Do you enjoy it?
Speaker 1:I love it yeah, I love it does obviously been in. It's a big part of your life is recovery. I think some people struggle where almost their entire identity becomes recovery and when you, when you work in this field, that kind of becomes the thing because you're maintaining sobriety outside of work, you're talking about sobriety in work. Has that affected you negatively at all, or has it just been nothing but positive, positively?
Speaker 2:I've. I've adopted a lot of things that I suggest to clients, maybe, and then, at the back of my mind as I'm saying it, I'm kind of like you don't do that, yeah. So I've tried it and I quite like that, yeah you know, so practice what you preach. Yeah, so I've got a lot, a lot out of it. Good it also. I'd be a massive hypocrite if I didn't maintain my sobriety while I was doing this, so it definitely helps keep me sober good.
Speaker 1:I like being able to show them that there's life after recovery, but I am very aware that I don't want my recovery to be my defining feature for the rest of my life yeah so you know, we've had discussions about development and stuff like that I think it just becomes a small part of who you are eventually yeah I think when people first get sober it's kind of like when people go to the 30 meetings in 30 days and things like that. It's so heavy recovery, focus, go, go, go, and then after a couple of years, it's just yeah, I go to the occasional meeting known again and it's just a very small part of your life, is the fact you don't, yeah, take substances.
Speaker 1:You don't drink, do you know?
Speaker 2:and I'm yeah, but I'm paid to talk about my recovery, my experiences, yeah, and I think at some point I'd like to sort of step back a little bit from that, but not too much, because I love this project. I'm really passionate about it, you know. I think it's vital and I really think it'd be massive if we get the go-ahead to carry on. So I'd maybe like to move into a management position maybe a little, not too, not too far away from the clients.
Speaker 1:Just just, you know, just enough, I can uh yeah, is there anything is? There anything else you want to talk about today?
Speaker 3:no, no no, that's fine.
Speaker 2:I've loved being up here, honestly, the setup here is brilliant I've really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, we've. We've enjoyed having you. Thanks for putting me. No, it's all right. No, worries.
Speaker 2:It's been like a therapy session.
Speaker 1:This is great being on the being on this series is a very cathartic process it is actually yeah, I like. I like to finish the every, every episode that we do with a series of questions not related to what we've spoken about so far.
Speaker 3:Quick fire questions or as quick as you can do what's your favorite word?
Speaker 1:oh, I can't say that you can, you can, you sure, 100%, can't nice. What's your least favorite word? Can't it's only contest tell me something that excites you.
Speaker 2:Oh god, festivals tell me something that doesn't excite you. Oh football, what sound? Or?
Speaker 1:noise do you love my grandkids laughing? What sound or noise do you love my grandkids laughing? What sound or noise do you hear?
Speaker 2:My grandkids whining.
Speaker 1:What's your favourite curse word? I guess I know what this is. Go on, oh no, fuck.
Speaker 2:Oh really.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If you wasn't doing what you're doing now with the Change your Life and the DWP Mentoring Project. What profession would you like to attempt?
Speaker 2:Oh God, festival planning That'd be amazing.
Speaker 1:What profession would you not like to do?
Speaker 2:Can't be one I've done before Could be, yeah, pub management.
Speaker 3:Never like in a pub again.
Speaker 1:And then, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates? Well done, wonderful stuff, shev. Thank you so much for coming on believing people. You have been wonderful.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much I enjoyed it good and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, please check out the other episodes and hit that subscribe button. We're on apple music and spotify, so please like and subscribe to be notified about our new episodes. You can also search for the believing people podcast on your favorite listening device and if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.
