Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#51 - Andre Edmund: Murder, 31 Years in a Los Angeles Prison, Addiction, Redemption, Gang Violence, Racism, Corruption & Redefining Freedom
Join Matt as he speaks with Andre, a man who spent over three decades in a Los Angeles prison following convictions for armed robbery and murder.
Opening with a reflection on the crime that led to his incarceration, Andre recounts the impulsivity and desperation of his actions, compounded by grief and addiction. His story unfolds into a broader exploration of life within the harsh confines of the U.S. prison system, characterised by rampant gang culture, racial tension, and systemic corruption.
What makes Andre’s narrative especially gripping is his introspective analysis of the choices that led to his incarceration and the survival strategies that enabled him to endure. From navigating violence and segregation to finding solace and guidance in spirituality, Andre's transformation serves as a testament to the human capacity for growth, even in the most oppressive circumstances.
The episode doesn’t stop at recounting past struggles but extends to Andre’s current life. Now living in the UK following deportation, he candidly discusses the challenges of reintegration, from adapting to modern technology to coping with the lingering trauma of his past. His entrepreneurial ventures and commitment to helping others, including returning to prisons as a mentor, highlight his ongoing journey of making amends and contributing positively to society.
This episode will resonate with listeners who have experienced incarceration, addiction, or systemic injustice, as well as those seeking to understand these complex issues.
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We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.
This is a Renew Original Record. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host or, as Alex say, your facilitator. Today I'm with Andre, who shares his powerful life story, discussing his experience of spending 31 years in a Los Angeles prison after being convicted of murder during an armed robbery. Andre reflects on the emotional turmoil that led him to commit the crime, particularly the grief of losing his child and struggling with addiction. He speaks about the harsh realities of American prison life, including gang violence, racism and systematic corruption. Throughout this conversation, he describes the turning point in his life when he sought redemption through spirituality and rehabilitation. And after finally being granted parole, andre has worked to rebuild his life, focusing on music, personal growth and his mission to help others still in the prison system. This story is one of transformational personal accountability and andre's ongoing journey to find freedom, both mentally and physically, after decades of incarceration.
Speaker 1:Andre, thank you so much for coming on the believing people podcast. I've invited you on because I think you have a very unique experience and a very unique story to share, and the big part of that story is I understand you spent 31 years in prison, which is well I'm I'm 33 years old, so it's almost my entire life that you you have spent in prison, which is which is insane. So talk me through a little bit about, because obviously you're american. Yeah, whereabouts in america? You're from los angeles even though I was born in east london.
Speaker 1:Okay, so there's the, there's the connections there then. So, um, you know this, this crime, 31 years in prison. Talk me through a little bit about what the crime was, why you committed the crime and, and I guess, who was, who was affected by it okay, um, the crime was murder, murder, robbery, which I was charged for.
Speaker 2:Uh, it happened right around the corner from my house. The answers on why I committed committed. It is not really an excuse, right, because I understand now. It's choices that we make and, in my sense, where we are at the time. But seven days prior to me committing the offense, I lost my third child, you know, and it really ultimately took me over the edge. And at that time I was probably at my lowest point because, say, a month before that, I just got discharged from the military. So at that time particular time, when I was at my low, I thought having a child like my previous two would have been the best thing for me. But actually it wasn't, because when she had a surgical miscarriage that almost, like, took me over the top, but actually it wasn't, because when she had a surgical miscarriage that almost, like, took me over the top. So I didn't deal with any of my addiction issues prior to that, whether it was alcohol, marijuana, you know, stress and things like that. So actually.
Speaker 2:I was just looking for more money to get a high or to get a drink to mitigate how I was feeling at the time. So at that time you know everything is impulsive Went home, thought I donned the camouflage, so to speak. Went to a store right around the corner, thinking, okay, if I just go in there, point the gun at him Typical criminal mind thinking that everything would went smooth because my intention was just going in take the money, I can't about anybody else. But I panicked, you know that's the truth. I panicked, discharged the. That was the truth. I panicked, discharged the weapon, ended up killing the owner. Actually, you know so, and that was probably, say, three weeks after, you know everything happened.
Speaker 2:So next thing, I know I'm in court facing the death penalty. Actually, because the way things are structured in America, especially the laws, if one felony happened in the course of another, automatically it's a death penalty. So it doesn't matter if it was accidental, they don't really look into that right at the time of just the crime, you know so. To who it affected affected, as I know now, not just my family, but theirs, like, as I know now, not just my family, but there's everybody who lived in the area that knew him or knew of him, that knew of me and my family because we lived over there.
Speaker 2:We left London in 1977. So we've been living in Los Angeles for like since 1980 in that particular house where we live. So everybody knew our family, Everybody knew me. So it was quite a shock to the community, but it wasn't until I was in prison with a life without parole sentence, that I actually had time to look back and look at. Who did I affect actually by me one making a decision to go into a store, have the audacity to want to take what they worked hard for just to suppress what I was feeling at the time but actually cost me 31 years of my life?
Speaker 1:yeah, what was that like to hear? Um, I'm just sorry, I'm just conscious of the, the beads as well with a microphone. But yeah, just just trying. Yeah, is that okay? Um, what was that like at such young age to be given a life sentence because in america life means life? You know, we hear over here in the in the uk when you're given a life sentence, because in America life means life. You know, we hear over here in the UK when you're given a life sentence. It's don't get me wrong, it is a big portion of your life 20 to 25 years, I believe it is Whereas over there in America, life is life.
Speaker 1:What was that like to be at such a young age and be told okay, you're spending the rest of your life in prison?
Speaker 2:okay, you're spending the rest of your life in prison. At that time it didn't really compute. No, because when I got sentenced I actually got found guilty by one judge, sentenced by another. But I remember sitting there coming to sentencing day and listening to how the judge was speaking to me like I was the biggest gangster of town. I'm looking around like are you speaking about me?
Speaker 2:But actually when they handed down a sentence life without the possibility of parole it really didn't register that that meant OK, you're never getting out of prison, you're going to die in prison. So that process didn't even set in. And even when I actually went to my first what they call a reception center, knowing that, OK, you're not going to get out, I didn't really have time to think about that. Because once you go into a prison in America you have to worry about the racism, you have to worry about the violence, you have to worry about all these other things. So it really didn't set in. But nor did I ever resolve that I was going to die in prison. Didn't know how it was going to work out or whatnot, but hearing that, knowing that, it was pretty traumatic for me.
Speaker 1:How long had you been in prison before it actually settled in of, okay, I'm here for life? Then how long had you been there before that? You said you didn't compute at the time, right, at what point did that realization set in and think, fuck, this is it. For me now Probably like 10 years afterwards. That's a long time for that to settle in. 10, 15 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because up until that's a long time for that to settle in 15 years. Yeah, because up until that point, the time I went into prison, there was a lot of racial rises with a lot of other things to distract me of thinking about. Okay, I'm not going to get out of prison, or an alternative to why. Um, but around the 15th year, 14th year, when I started making my own transition, every other law you've seen everybody leave to go home and so I'm like, okay, I'm not going to go through that process because I have this lifetime.
Speaker 2:So just living in that state, knowing that, okay, you see people going home or intervening law happen, it's not going to affect me, it's something it's waiting to live with. No, because while you're in prison, you still have to maintain some quality of life, even though though you know, ok, I don't know when I'm going home. So that's the difference between some people that go to prison they might give up and they fall into everything else, but you have those who hold on to some type of hope. You know which kind of like balanced everything else, but it was still tough.
Speaker 1:I can imagine, but in one of your earlier answers you about the, the violence in prison, the racism in prison. What was prison life like then? And I imagine your experiences would be much different to what it'd be like in a in a british prison as well. Um, talk me a little bit through prison life and and if there's anything that you can think of that is, I guess, exclusive to being in an American prison as well.
Speaker 2:Prison life in America, one you have to deal with gangs, racism and corruption, whether it's coming from the internal corruption, meaning from defenders or the staff. There's a point in between where you do have fun in prison because you might meet friends, people you know, they do have sports but just a constant threat of violence because of the racial tension and the racial tension is only because of skin color, right Nothing actually genuine. So living in that constant pressurized environment, it really takes a toll out of you, you know. So, learning what not to say, where to go, how to negotiate things, how to protect yourself, you know, these are things I had to learn at a very young age, because when I went to prison in 1992, I was one of the youngest people. Everybody else either was served already 15, 20 years, and it was a different type of environment because you had to deal with people getting killed on the yard or the shot by the guards. So it's that constant threat of violence or uncertainty.
Speaker 1:So just dealing with that on its own is enough how does it compare, I think, in terms of what we see in mainstream media? Do you know american life? Um often in places like la has this depiction of of gang culture, and obviously there is um racism in america is really brought to the forefront of of the media attention, especially in the case like the george floyd case that happened, you know, a couple years ago. How does the the sort of the racism and the gang culture on the outside compared to what is in the inside? Is there a parallel between the two? Is it similar or is it different? I mean, I don't know if you're experiencing your life before prison, that feeling of worry, of violence and the way that you did when you was in prison.
Speaker 1:Is the differences is the similarities between the two.
Speaker 2:The similarities are usually the people that's in prison as gang members, were gang members before, but now there's an element of prison that adds to confinement, so you have prison gangs. Most of the shot callers, as we say, people who control the gangs or have the say-so, are in prison. They have a particular prison in Corcoran, pelican Bay, that have what they call SHU, segregated housing units, and that's usually where they send the gang leaders. However, from their cells or wherever they are, whatever happens in prison mainly happens on the street. So if there's, say, a rival gang war in prison, it usually trinkles to the street. Conversely, if a peace treaty was formed in prison, usually they'll trinket into the street. So there's always a similarity and a connection.
Speaker 2:But even in that situation it can get very bad because you're dealing with more confinement, you're dealing with more at stake on the streets. You can leave, even if there's a warfare, even if there's racial discrimination, but in prison everything is there. So imagine there's a war between the blacks or the whites or whatever. You know, when that door opens either you're going to have to fight for your life, stay in the cell, which also comes with a consequence. So you have all these variables with the gangs and you know protection and bullying and money. So there's a lot of factors between prison and the streets, you know, especially if, say, for example, a gang leader in prison tells somebody on the street to do something right, and in that lifestyle either prison or death is the outcome. So nine times out of ten, if they don't follow orders from prison on the street and they come to an institution, then they have to worry about that.
Speaker 2:So that's the similarities and that's the connections from prison is the gang culture.
Speaker 1:You know, we again, my again, my only resource is is mainstream media, but um, I've seen in TV shows where, like black people stay together white people stay together, the Mexicans stay together and, like the second, you come into prison, whether you know these people or not. It's right there, your people, whether you get along with them or not, they're the ones that you stick with. Is that the reality of prison? Is that, was that very much, your experience?
Speaker 2:That's very much the reality, especially in higher levels, higher levels like level four, level three. The lower you come down in levels, the less segregation that you have it might be some elements of it, but not as much, because that's one of the things that transitioning from incarceration into freedom, even over here in the uk being in close proximities with different races, being in prison for so being in close proximities with different races, being in prison for so long, like I was sharing with a couple of people.
Speaker 2:If somebody from another race approached me, or a group of blacks, they're only coming for two reasons to do you something or to do some type of illicit transaction dealing with drugs, et cetera. Where would it be? Cop elicit transaction, dealing with drugs, et cetera. Where would it be? So in prison? You know that's the situation, but dealing with it mentally and emotionally out here in the free world, it's similar because of the amount of time that I did. So, yes, there is segregation, but the length of time that I did and the ups and lows, even that's superficial, because when we really need each other, we bond with each other. So, all the segregation, this is your bench, this is this, this is that. That's the similarities of the streets too, but there's times when all that facade decreases.
Speaker 1:Talking about, like you mentioned, about the drugs and things like that, I think from an outside perspective, it was, I guess, quite naive of me to believe that, okay, they're in prison. I mean, do you know how hard it is to get things in and out of prison? It seems to be, again, something that is put forward as being difficult. Yet you often hear stories about how much drug use is going on in prisons. Yet you often hear stories about how much drug use is going on in prisons. Talk me through that, then. How do drugs end up in prison and how are they distributed amongst inmates within prison as well?
Speaker 2:Drugs can come in through visiting. When I first started my time, our families could send us boxes, you know, with food, et cetera, et cetera. People use that avenue for drugs. When they got shut down, people who come to visit you. They'll bring in and exchange you drugs or guards, so usually it was just an opportunity. If somebody saw an opportunity to get drugs in because the price is so inflated, they'll get it in. Distribution now could be either through inmates you know the people that you know who you're sleeping next to or you know the person down the landing. You know what they use the same similar to people on the streets. Everything is available in prison, from spies, heroin, marijuana, etc. So the availability of it is just like on the streets here, if you know somebody who has it or know somebody who might know.
Speaker 1:Just a conversation how are drugs paid for within prison then? Because not people don't necessarily have the access to the money that they have in the free world. How are they paying for these substances to be able to use them personally? You'll be amazed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would go on tell me prison yeah, because just like how drugs come in, people just getting sim cards for phones okay cash because the currency currency exchange.
Speaker 2:if somebody wanted drugs and they had cash, they would get more. But things like e-commerce whether or not they had a thing called PayPal, here's somebody for PayPal, moneygram, et cetera. Or if you have a canteen in your cell and somebody's selling something for $30, the equivalent, you'll go in your cell and get $30 equivalent and just give it to them. So the transaction is similar to the streets, you know, and it's, whether it's a small quantity or large, large quantities, where you see, like corruption between staff, because they're the only people who have the ability to bring in that amount. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's almost like a working relationship, so to speak, between the staff and the inmates, but it's still a problem, because in prison, yes, you have easy access to drugs, but so do overdoses. It's a lot of overdoses, it's a lot of synthetic drugs that come through prison which leads to death, and that's also one of the main things that leads to riots and violence and things in prison.
Speaker 1:How are the drugs consumed? Because I mean there's some drugs like I mean, take cocaine as an example All you need is to do is just take a sniff With some drugs. Obviously you need an amount, I guess, equipment, paraphernalia to actually use those substances. How are some of those other substances like heroin actually consumed, then? I mean, is it a case of just rubbing it into the gums or are people actually injecting it? The same way they use it out here so how are they getting access to like that equipment as well, then?
Speaker 1:like the needles and stuff, because it must be a little bit harder to get in than a little bag of brown sort of thing. Do you know?
Speaker 2:not necessarily, because if you figure, there's nurses, stations, there's medical okay, there's's people who take insulin for shots or whatnot. So you might have an inmate working in the nurses station and they might have easy access to syringe. So, it's either money exchange, exchange for drugs, so it's access to everything as far as uses. There's fire, there's any equipment that you need.
Speaker 1:So, yes, what were some of the? I guess, interestingly enough, you've been in prison for a very long time they're 31 years. Can you tell me what the worst thing that you saw in prison was?
Speaker 2:the worst thing I've seen.
Speaker 1:Wow okay, even so, even give me a few examples, yeah, a few examples. I mean I can't. You've talked, then, about like deaths, overdoses, things like that, you know, because I've seen films where people are getting, like you know, fucking stabbed in the toilets and shit like that, you know, and I always think, oh well, this is, this is the media, but you know, going back it, these are obviously based on some realities as well. So what is the actual reality? I mean, I don't know if you've seen films like Shawshank Redemption is a classic one where this sort of stuff goes on but what are some of the worst things that you've seen?
Speaker 2:personally, I mean the first day I got to prison, there was an altercation, a racial altercation that had been longstanding for a while.
Speaker 2:So I get to the yard and they had an alarm, which means something is happening, and I seen a gurney run towards the building and when I see them coming back, you had a nurse on top of the gurney giving somebody CPR and that was, for me, my first and that person ended up dying.
Speaker 2:I've seen a stage fight on one side of the yard and I seen somebody get the shirt pulled over him and two guys were just stabbing him and that was traumatic to see because when you see something like that somebody actually helpless, helpless and you know that they're going to kill this person. I've seen a person get people get raped. I've seen a person get violated in certain ways only because they might not be part of a gang, they might not have the courage to stand up for themselves. I've seen a lot of people get taken advantage of. I've seen a person get their throat cut at the fence talking to someone, thinking that they're just negotiating something that happened, but they've already plotted to kill this person. So the range of horrible things that I've witnessed includes rape to murder.
Speaker 1:Did you ever think that you would die in prison based on the things that you were seeing around you? No, no. How come, after seeing those things that was happening? Why did? Why did that thought never come into your head of you? Know, this could be me, I could get stabbed, I could be raped, and all these things. What made you feel as though you were safe?
Speaker 2:because I know I wouldn't let it happen to me. It's a and this is probably something that most people don't know most people in prison where they might be indicated as the most violent, they're just like you and me, people that either have been institutionalized and they've become savage because of the factors of prison, and it's mostly peer pressure. As a youth, that was probably my vice, being peer pressured, trying to fit in with everybody, and I knew the consequences of that, probably my first year fighting my case. So when I went to prison there's a few things that I made resolve to never be bullied, never follow a crowd, never do what everybody else says is okay and just stand up and speak for myself. And that right there kind of like nips a lot of things in the bud that might open the door to get raped, to make get taken advantage of, because prison is a breeding ground for predators.
Speaker 1:But if you allow yourself to be that and I didn't allow it, so all those things about getting stabbed, getting raped and whatnot, I didn't put myself in those type of situations in prison does that not in some way make you a target because you are going against the system and the way things are being done there, like I'd have thought, okay, this guy ain't playing ball here, this guy's standing up for himself like, fuck that, we don't have that here. You know, not really.
Speaker 2:No, I think that was one of the benefits. When I went to prison, I was an old gang member even though I was young. So in prison my first probably five years I had all-related altercation. So slimming down on the streets If somebody knows that you're not to be messed with, usually that'll set your pace for your time, your duration in prison, no matter how long you've been in prison. So it doesn't matter what anybody else had to say. I've been through that. I know the consequences of that, so that really wasn't a factor for me after I went to prison. So it wouldn't matter what anybody said or how they felt, even me not disassociating myself from my gang, but making a defining line Okay, I'm not a gang member, you guys are my tribe, I'm going to be that person you can talk to or rely on that. I wish I had.
Speaker 2:Right going to be that person you can talk to or rely on that. I wish I had right. So usually when that's known, everybody else, they just have everything else. But there's always that static fact of, yes, somebody's going to say something or have something to say, you know. But it was just a matter for me just having that internal courage, that internal resolve and drawing that line. We're like, no, this isn't going to happen.
Speaker 1:How did you sort of distance yourself from? You said, when you went into prison you was part of a gang and then over time you've kind of distanced yourself from that. What was that like, and was it easy to distance yourself from it, or was it? Did you experience some resistance in that?
Speaker 2:It was easy because I know what I wanted. The only tug that I did feel it was people who I met while in prison, that I knew from the streets and we had like a childhood relationship. So they felt that I was leaving a gang of personal reasons. So it was more of a. They felt that I was leaving them. But I was to the point where it doesn't matter how you feel, you could not like it, you could like it or whatnot. You can ask me why did I choose to mature? Right, and that's one of the things in prison because I'm Muslim.
Speaker 2:A lot of people think when you become Muslim or any other faith or change your life, you have to leave the people who you grew up with. For me it was more just leaving the lifestyle of a gang member, the criminal activity, the unhealthy lifestyle, the value system, the predatory nature. But when I looked at the people who were gang members, I'm looking at people who I used to live next door to Somebody else's son that might need guidance or be in a worse situation off than me. So it really wasn't so much disassociating myself from people, it was disassociating myself from the lifestyle, because at that point I already realized the lifestyle got me life in prison.
Speaker 2:The lifestyle played a part in me losing three of my kids. The lifestyle got me discharged from the military. The lifestyle ruled my whole sports career. The lifestyle did a whole lot of these things. So I had this pre-knowledge going into prison. So, being set on my discipline, it wasn't as hard as others might experience, like going to one of their fellow gang members be like I don't want to do that anymore. Yeah, I've seen people get stabbed for that that's what.
Speaker 1:That's what I was thinking, you know. Yeah, exactly, blood in, blood out. That is exactly what I was thinking. So it's quite interesting that you you was able to do that and you mentioned there about religion as well was was the muslim faith something that you was able to do that and you mentioned there about religion as well? Was the Muslim faith something that you found whilst you was in prison? Was it something that you found that?
Speaker 2:in prison. I grew up in Catholic school, my mother's Seventh-day Adventist, so I always had that religious slash, spiritual presence in the house. But it didn't relate to me when I was facing the death penalty. I remember the county jail same time Rodney King Rice was happening. Imagine being 20 years old. The only thing you have in your head okay, death penalty, death penalty, death penalty.
Speaker 2:I remember very poignantly getting on my knees and be like oh God, if you just get me out of this. Just this last time, which was quite a familiar state with me because I've been in some very precarious situations shootouts, near-death experiences et cetera. But this situation was kind of different because I knew this wasn't one I could have to live myself out of, manipulate the results, to get up out of. So I found myself on my knees crying be like God, please just get me up out of this situation. So at that time it wasn't so much that I was identifying with a religion, I just needed that type of help that I knew I was in a bad situation. So from there it just came with going to church, praying, reading et cetera.
Speaker 2:Long story short going into prison. One of my friends actually was an enemy on the street rival gang member. He was a Muslim. He introduced me to come to Juma one day and I bended off like no, I'm cool. My dad sent me a Quran Early days in prison. He was like you know what's going on with the Muslims? I would like to say if they can help with the Crips, you know, because you see, even with the Muslims or anybody who has a religious body in there, the same things, whether it be racism, arrogance, et cetera, et cetera, because everybody finds their way, but me, because my need was so sincere.
Speaker 2:So was my quest, you know, for spirituality, because I know I needed some type of help. So it was almost like a progressive stage thing. And Islam I chose Islam because actually it just gave me all the answers to the questions that I have. Not to the point where I thought Islam was better than Christianity or this was better than that. That's not how I came into my spiritual awareness or place in Islam. To the point where I thought Islam was better than Christianity or this was better than that. That's not how I came into my spiritual awareness or place in Islam. It was just a gradual thing of one education. It made the most sense to me and, through my experience, whether it was through the military gangs and that regimented lifestyle. It gave me an order, it gave me a purpose, and that regimented lifestyle it gave me an order, you know.
Speaker 2:It gave me a purpose, and the first thing in Islam that I learned from my best friend was how to purify the way I thought, the way I processed my feelings, because, in essence, that's how I responded in life, that's how I was going to live my life, regardless of who I said I was. The way I processed emotions was all backwards, from the time I can remember all the way up to I went to prison. I've been through so many emotional ups and downs get kicked out of five grades and one grade level, being bullied, and all this. So Islam gave me a good benchmark on how to deal with all of these things, you know.
Speaker 1:Did it put you in? Going back to the whole the groups within prison? You know we spoke to all the blacks, whites, mexicans In this country. Specifically, I think Muslims probably receive some of the, I guess, some of the most racism in this country. Did that put you in like two separate camps of being black and being muslim as well, or was it still just one sort of identity within the prison of being with being with black people?
Speaker 2:it was double. It was double because one you're not looked at favorably in prison as being black. We all look at the problem demographic, which in some respects we are Additionally being Muslim. Double the bad image because most of the correctional officers in the CDC are either military, military law enforcement, and we know about 9-11. Yeah, so that was an added pressure, you know. So, yes, that's understandable.
Speaker 1:Talk me through some of the um corruption that you may have experienced, because, based on what you've told me so far, corruption seems to be rife within prison anyway, and it's another thing when we talk about culture. There's been a story recently in the news of improper conduct by a prison officer. What sort of corruption have you experienced? You said about double the hate then and you said around the actual staff that worked there. Talk me through some of the corruption that you've witnessed in prison, or any corruption that you've experienced yourself being in that system.
Speaker 2:Well, prison guards used to make bets between themselves who would win fights on a shoe yarn, knowing that in their job to break up a fight there were tears, Audible, get down Next warning shot, which they're not any an actual shooting, and this is their protocol. But on one hand they had an organization, a CO, called the Green Wall, and what they do is like a police prison gang amongst the COs. So they would actually bet on who would win the fight, the blacks or the Mexicans, et cetera. And most of the time, if there's only 20 people allotted to a shoe yard, they might let out 10 Mexicans and three blacks, knowing the situation of who would win. And I've actually seen one time when they shot the black person after they won their bet, and that was one of the big things that got Pelican Blade shoot closed.
Speaker 2:I've seen that corruption. I've seen the corruption to where a CO will come. A correctional officer will come, tell you that they can bring you drugs, et cetera. They bring you the drugs, et cetera, and they'll turn around, raid your cell, take all your phones and all that, get all your money. Another form of corruption I've seen correctional officers bring other inmates' knives. You know buck knives and things like that. So that level of corruption is ripe Right, Even on an administrative level.
Speaker 2:If you were to get written up by a correctional officer for something that you're actually innocent for, because there's so much. They are so intertwined in protecting each other, right up to the warden, All the paperwork will be legitimized as if it was okay. You have that line of corruption which I believe before I paroled, three wardens got fired because a warden is the commanding chief of the prison but under that they had a thing called. I think the equivalent over here is a volcano squad. They'll come in and do whatever they want to do. I've seen them forcefully beat you up and when I say beat you up, bones broken, um hospitalization, but they'll just tuck you away, tell your family you're sick or you're out to court and these type of things Flashlight therapy, any type of resistance, even if you're right, you'll be missing for two weeks.
Speaker 1:What's flashlight therapy?
Speaker 2:Flashlight therapy. They have flashlights about, like it's, the sheriffs and they'll be trilled with it. That's what they call it flashlight therapy.
Speaker 2:So a lot of police brutality back in Ad Seg and the shoes. But the corruption is so interwound because you might have a nurse team assisting the SEALs because everything has to be caught on camera CCTV, but they'll tell them you wait right there, they'll abuse whoever they have, then bring in the nurses, edit a whole lot of stuff. So the type of corruption is ripe in prison. But as an inmate you still have to find your lane because one. You have to stay safe, you have to create and nurture a quality of living in prison because you still have education, you still have those avenues, you can still see your family, you can still do all these pro uh, rehabilitative things. But to get caught in that sway of internal corruption is kind of difficult why do you think the corruption happens like?
Speaker 1:why do you think police officers are correctional officers, sorry are engaging in this corruption? Why not just go do your job, maintain a level of peace in the prison and go home? How is that happening? How are they being influenced to do what they're doing?
Speaker 2:because a lot of them feel that we deserve to be there. A lot of of correctional officers not a a high perception. A high percentage of correctional officers deserve feel you deserve to be there because after you harm someone so they're not gonna treat you the way a normal society would. You don't have any rights. So that's the mindset. Additionally, they get it in their training right so they come in there with that Because sometimes they could just come into a grown man's room say they want to do a search. They humiliate you, have you get stripped naked and do all these dehumidifying things, go through your personal stuff, only because they feel that you don't have any rights. Especially if it's crimes about domestic violence, murder, anything victim impacted, which prison is always victim impacted. They have that mindset. That's why you might also see on the yard. Everybody knows when something is happening in prison, any type of violence they already know. That's another point of corruption in prison. You communicate with the staff. The point of corruption in prison you communicate with the staff.
Speaker 2:So if something, if somebody is gonna be assaulted, they will wait until the assault is finished, then make their way over there. Because in prison it's also a give and take thing, because as much as the staff are corrupted, the prisoners actually run the prison. Because at any day somebody could be like okay, we're not going inside, we're tired. The standards, whether it be eating, whether it be medical, whether it be just basic humanity and respect, anything could happen and a prison could shut down. So those are the reasons why it happens.
Speaker 1:Who do you think the worst threat? People are in prison. Who gets the brunt of this corruption? The worst, would you say?
Speaker 2:Probably those who aren't affiliated with a gang or group.
Speaker 1:Individuals what about um sexual predators, child molesters like what I mean? Obviously are they. I understand they're separated from a lot of the other people. Is that? The case in the american prisons as well yes, so you wouldn't have ever come into contact with those people, and would you?
Speaker 2:let's try to hide it yeah, and once it's found out, then they're pretty much dead have you?
Speaker 1:have you seen that? Have you experienced that?
Speaker 2:yes, talk me through that um, it was just one particular guy, but it was rumors that he was in there for domestic violence and child molestation. But he was a gang member. Okay, right, so you have to bias this and whatnot, but it was some higher up saying that. No, if it's one rule for one, there's one from paul. But what he did is he was changed all his court transcripts, everything that indicated what his actual crime was for. Um, and they found out, I think two weeks later he was doing on the weight pile.
Speaker 2:That's when they had waste before they took it and two guys hit him in the head with a dumbbell geez and killed him yeah, well it's Later.
Speaker 1:He was doing on the weight pile that's when they had to waste before they took it and two guys hit him in the head with a dumbbell Jeez and killed him.
Speaker 2:Well it's straight up, killed him there as soon as they found out.
Speaker 1:That's it. There is no, it's not caught, is it? Do you know what I mean? There is no. Oh, let's hear what you've got to say. No, it's not. Things happen anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And if they're going to judge people based on what they've done prior to coming to prison, they're not going to give a shit. Are they about a child, a sexual predator?
Speaker 2:a child molester. They usually turn a blind eye.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course they would.
Speaker 2:Usually they would.
Speaker 1:You mentioned a little bit about parole. 31 years in prison you thought you was going to die there. At what point, how many times did you visit the parole board? What came about you getting parole? Talk me a little bit about that process and your experiences there, Because, again, it's not a case of you just see people once and they tend to let you go. It's often you have to see them time and time and time again. Was that your experience?
Speaker 2:No often you have to see him time and time and time again. Was that your experience? No, actually, I had life without parole. Okay, all the way up to november 18, 2018. Okay, right, what I did was I submitted a application for computation what's that? Um, which is the application for clemency and to shorten your sentence.
Speaker 2:That goes directly to the governor, and at that time, it was Jerry Brown. He was leaving office for the second time, but all the way up from 1992, all the way up to 2018, I had life without the possibility of parole. So any law or any other relief that affected everybody else or another designated lifer, it didn't touch what they call the condemned, meaning those on death row and those without life without parole. But on November 18th November 18th 2018, my application for commutation was granted. At that time, I had already served 27 years. So what happened then? When my sentence was reduced to 30 years to life, because I was a youth offender, which means whoever committed their crime 20 years and younger can go to the parole board because they were deemed a youth offender.
Speaker 1:So I went Was that a new thing that was introduced then, or was that something that's always been the case?
Speaker 2:It wasn't a new law, because when the law came out, it only affected those who were 14 years and younger.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah.
Speaker 2:Two years later it affected those who were 14 years and younger. Two years later it affected those who were 17 years and younger, Like five years later. After that, now it affected those who were 20 years and younger, irrespective of their sentence. But because mine was 30 years, to life automatically. I went to the parole board nine months later and, yeah, I thought I was ready because by that time I was already a man, I was already a facilitator of a lot of rehabilitative groups, so I was on a good traction had good traction, first parole board here, and I got denied seven years.
Speaker 2:Because now, what they did, every infraction that I accumulated from 1992 up until that point they used against me, irrespective of the progress that I made along that time. So seven years was a denial crushed me, really, really crushed me. They moved me to another prison, level two prison, which was probably my hardest time, because now from general population now I'm in a prison with child molesters, people who couldn't survive the main line, everybody that left where I was for the longest. Now I'm there in an open environment. So now I had to deal with that.
Speaker 1:And what was that move for then?
Speaker 2:Because what CDCR did they tried to because maybe you asked a question what did they do with the sexual? Yeah, yeah, yeah. They what they did. They put them on a yard called SNY Sensitive Needs Yards. They segregated them, but what they did, I think five years prior, was take away the SNY. Okay was take away the. Sny and call them non-designated facilities, which meant anybody can go there.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, I get you now.
Speaker 2:And that level of corruption cost people their lives. Because now you're forcing people from general population to go somewhere where one if and when you go now your name is tarnished. Now you're likely if anybody finds out, you're likely to be killed. But now I had to spend the next how many of years rectifying what I needed to do, because I know I was going back to the parole board, and that was three years later. I went same intense questions similar to our discussion, because they wanted no answers, which rightfully so. So at that hearing they found me suitable for parole. I went.
Speaker 2:I got parole like nine months later but the reason why I'm here I went right into federal custody. So even though I left state custody, they were waiting for me in what they call reception and release. So I spent an additional three months waiting to see what my immigration status would have been about. And that didn't fare well, because if I could have stayed, fought it, because when I was in the military, to my example, in incarceration everything leading up to it would have fared kind of weighty, but it would have took about two years and I wasn't prepared to do that. So that's how I got deported so you got deported.
Speaker 1:You got deported back here, is that why I'd say I thought you'd come over here by choice. No, I was thinking, why would you? Why would you come to england by choice from la? But okay, so the actual deportation yes, that's interesting, you used the word earlier institutionalized. And after 31 years, I can't imagine what it was like going from being in prison to the world and I mean you again. I'm 33 years old, the changes that I've experienced in my lifetime, that I've been able to adapt to because I'm here, I'm living it. What was that like for you coming out of prison? And I guess, what was your biggest shock in terms of how the world was now, to how it was before you'd gone into prison?
Speaker 2:The world hasn't changed too much. Really, I think they got more rude.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:People are more disconnected, more fast-paced.
Speaker 2:I'm still transitioning because I've been out about 18 months now, so just the whole one. Leaving society in 1992, getting on a plane, that was terrifying, so having to deal with that, but coming to a new country not knowing anybody, that's similar to going to another prison, so that didn't really bother me. What was tricky was going on public transportation, interacting with different dangers, different people, closing spaces, fast reactions, those type of things. And it's similar to when I was younger all the external triggers and stress management et cetera, et cetera. And that's unique probably to my story because one I spent all those years in prison, including federal detention, to come to a new country where I have no recollection of so the amount of stress I've experienced from the first day.
Speaker 2:It wasn't the same type of stress that I was going through when I was younger. Same factors, same people, same losing a job, getting a job, et cetera, et cetera. But now being able to manage it because I managed it in prison for so long. They're still there and I think it's heightened now. I'm barely getting relaxed now being on the train. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Going through dark tunnels and people brushing up on you, having conversations in different forms and just being able to walk without walking in a circle in prison. That's all you do, so I'm still adapting to society.
Speaker 1:What was the first thing you did when you came out of prison? What was the first luxury? You treated yourself to Pizza Nice. I knew it would be something really simple, but I mean anywhere in particular.
Speaker 2:No, because I went to Paddington. Okay, yeah, yeah, so I didn't know anything. I just looked at the closest pizza shop, went to the hostel. Yeah, yeah, so I didn't know anything. I just looked at the closest pizza shop, went to the hostel, which was right around the corner. It took me about an hour to get there. I still couldn't use google maps so it was a long um a line of eateries, so I just went to the closest one yeah got something.
Speaker 1:It was wonderful yeah, I imagine it could be the worst pizza in the world but I imagine in that moment it still tasted like the best pizza in the world. I guess do you know what's next for you then, after 31 years in prison, 18 months on the outside? Now what is next for Andre?
Speaker 2:The next thing for me is launching my entertainment agent, because I grew up in dance hall, I grew up in music. That's what was a thing that I was good at before I went to prison, so quite recently. What I did after coming back from Trinidad, which I'll speak to you about, I think it's music, you know, putting on events, putting on shows, because that's what I'm good at, you know, and it's another thing, that's another stress factor Not being in the country for three years or not having property or something in this country. A lot of opportunities got closed for me which could be another external factor of stress.
Speaker 2:So what's for me now is launching what I call sensory seduction entertainment. It's just not about DJing, it's not about investment, it's more about empowering the people empowering ourselves, you know, and actually using what I'm good at in a legal way. You know, because, like I said, I just came back from Trinidad and one of the things that happened while I was in prison, my father passed away you know and I inherited everything from him.
Speaker 2:You know his business, the property, et cetera, et cetera. So, yes, music and all these things might be at the forefront, but now, person coming out of prison, now in Trinidad, I have other siblings and other relatives where my performance, the way I respond to things, my business, etiquette, et cetera, they're dependent on me now. Yeah. You know. So that's the next thing for me putting myself in a position here in London to where I could be able to one go back and forth to Trinidad, because my mom is aging.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of factors that came into play and was poignant for me now, you know, as a person who used to be what probably the most untrustworthy person in my family, now to being the head of the family, my dad's only son. It's kind of surreal, but I know those type of situations is what prison actually prepared me for, you know.
Speaker 2:So that's where I'm at now All the minor problems like I tried to go get a laptop, the other day because when I came back from Trinidad I dropped my rucksack on the train line, messed up my well, it kind of jogged up my laptop. So I said, okay, I need a new laptop.
Speaker 2:So I went to Curry's, got the MacBook Pro I think it was the MacBook Pro M3. Everything he had it on the table, everything. I got the price down to like $49 a month, et cetera, et cetera. I'm like, okay, because I just brought a new system, Did the credit check and the only reason I couldn't get it because I didn't have three years residency. Oh, okay, so these are. Before going to prison, I probably went home, took a drink and did something, not knowing how to process that.
Speaker 2:But now it's like OK, so these are the things which I've been, you know, having to adjust, you know, and how prison has actually served as a ground for education, and how I'm going to apply it now, even over here in England, you know. So that's the next things for me, things for me just building that so I could be able to relieve my mother of the duties that she's doing, like the landlord duties, making sure that my family's all right, making sure that I'm economically all right, because you know, hey, it's bills to pay, absolutely you know all these things to pay.
Speaker 1:So I understand that, despite being in prison for as long as you have been, you've recently taken a job where you're going to be voluntarily going back into prison now, yes, and being on the opposite end of that and helping people, as, as you were saying. What's the mindset after 31 years in prison? To think, right, I'm gonna go back now and, um, I'm gonna help people, right, what? Talk me through that, because I can't. Personally, if I'd spent 31 years in prison, the last place I'd ever want to go again is prison. I think just walking around with guards and the locks on the doors and all I'd find it really triggering after 31 years. But I suppose to you, in some way it's normal to you. That was your life for such a long time. So what reason have you wanted to go back to prison to help people?
Speaker 2:the path of amends. Um, I learned in prison for me personally stop trying to do things that you're not good at. Um, it's one thing I learned in prison how I got there and through 31 years being in prison being a part of self-help groups, created self-help groups myself and et cetera, having people come to the temple and actually teaching people you actually find out why people came to prison and the help and the support that they need on the streets. I also know that crime is a very, very real thing, how it affects the victims, how it affects the community. That snowball and I know that I was a major factor in both, because growing up, excellent education, sports, could have went professional in four sports, wanted to become a cop, wanted to do all these things right.
Speaker 2:But because of my lifestyle, living in the streets, being attracted to certain things and not having the ability nor the education nor the application skill to get it landed me in prison for a very long time and ultimately it made me make a choice, whether it be a poor choice or not. Another life was lost. So I owe that in the path of amends because I know that it just wasn't the direct victim that was affected. Even my family was affected. The direct victim that was affected it was even my family was affected. You know people that knew him was affected, and when I was young I didn't speak.
Speaker 2:I wasn't courageous enough to speak. I always took the backseat to everything. There's one thing in prison that I learned and became was a leader Right. So I knew in prison one of the things that I wanted to do and was going to do was go back in prison when I got out and to help. You know, whether it be on the administrative side, whether I'll be developing rehabilitative courses for the staff to provide for the inmates to where they can one change the culture within the prisons and be prepared when they get out of prisons. Like different skills and I know that well. Like you said, that's my whole lived experience. So me spending time on something else wouldn't be fruitful for me, nor is it something that I'm accountable for, so you can say it's more waiting on the side of accountability Came up through the gangs or waiting on the side of accountability, came up through the gangs.
Speaker 2:I learned through the gangs where best to go. Give your knowledge and your lived experience and your example in prison, because that's what I've been doing. I can't go out and come get a corporate job right away because I haven't been in that field, although I have the education. Mine's always been okay. I know the prison life best, I know who's in prison, I know the barriers of how they got to prison and I know how they'd be successful post-prison. So I know that that was my role as an individual, my role as a Muslim, my role as a man, my role as an ex-gang member. Because I know you can't go, you can't take somebody who hasn't lived that experience to talk to them or to talk to me, right, because I wouldn't want to hear it. But I know that I've so many people I've reached in prison so it wouldn't. It wouldn't make sense for me to come out now and not go back and be of service, whether it be to the staff or to the inmate population. That's why I had to go back into the prisons.
Speaker 1:I can appreciate that. I think a really good answer as well. But I guess, talking about all this stuff and all these experiences that have made you who you are today, how does going back to the crime that you committed? That was many, many years ago, how does that still affect you today?
Speaker 1:does it affect you today. Yes, talk me through those feelings is. Is there a trauma response to it? Do you relive that moment over and over? How does it? How do you cope now? How do you live now after doing what you've, what you had done?
Speaker 2:I have to own it, don't make excuses about it. It's humbled me, it's actually put me in a more humble position, sometimes loud noises, or even if I see an oriental person because the person that I killed was a korean, um being in certain stores, or even getting to a certain level of desperation or stress. I always remember that, you know, because the duration for me going into the market and running out the market was very small. But I knew that decision at that time where I was at, what I was relying on, that whole buildup until the gun discharge, until I pulled the trigger in panic, was all because of my inability to handle life, you know. So, yes, I remember it, because I remember every single day that I spent in prison, in those cells, because you actually ask yourself all the time why are you here? How did you get here? Because I had to find those answers, because you asked me earlier how did you cope with being in prison?
Speaker 2:I knew that whenever that time came for me to be released, I wasn't going to be the same person and knowing that I took an innocent man's life because of my inability to handle life was not going to happen again. So it stays in my mind, you know even the circumstances I've experienced in London so far. My temp is raised, knowing like vividly, from walking in the sound, the court proceedings, the gavel, the jury, that all that's vivid to me, similar to, like me, how I felt when my girl told me my child is dead. So those traumatic things and their trauma points, you know people talk about trauma, multi-layered trauma.
Speaker 1:You know so, but it's these traumatic experiences and feelings and event that actually keeps me on a straightener, because I know everything comes down to choice yeah whether it be a bad choice or a good choice you said about, obviously, the loss of your child and, and you know, going back to to your youth as well, you know particularly good at sports, so you're well educated. What were the things that drew you into this lifestyle of of committing crime? Because, as you said, no excuses right, but there's plenty of people out there who have gone through something traumatic, such as losing a child, and they haven't resorted to gun violence and things like that. So what else was going on in your life building up to that moment? Was you influenced by gang culture? How was you initiated into gangs? How did you go from being this educated, you know, and well-rounded, as you said, like you know athlete, you know promising. Do you know upcoming athlete to to?
Speaker 2:that you know where it started, where the draw was. I want to do what everybody else were doing, that my parents wouldn't let me the belonging. I seen all of them. Now I became a gang member, and that's a tricky phrase. When did you become a gang member? I grew up in my neighborhood, so it was a matter of getting jumped in for me.
Speaker 1:Not like an initiation phase you go through, you're just around it and kind of gravitate to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. But the draw was, I want to be like them. Because them they had, the girls, they had the pretty girls, everybody was around them. And at that time I didn't have that. Everything was go to school, be good, wear a uniform. Everything was structured, sports practice, bam. But inside, growing up, I was so unfulfilled, didn't know who I was, or struggling to learn who. I was Excelled in sports, excelled in grades, but it wasn't enough for me. One, I was the only boy. Two, I was very dark, right. So the bullying, the teasing, et cetera, you know the old phrase if you can't beat them, join them. So it's one of those gradual things. Because who you grow up, my peers, who I grew up with, we all went to the same elementary, we all played sports in the same park, but these guys' older brothers or whatnot, were actual gang members.
Speaker 2:So it's almost like you grow up. I grew up into it. So now, rather than pay attention in school or do what my mom said or everything else, I'm ditching school to be like them, still haven't dealt with my own issues about man, who am I or what are my strengths and what are my weaknesses, so I grew up in that lifestyle with them. It didn't turn criminal per se until like 86, because everything was gradual. It went from stealing, stealing and sweltering my dad's marijuana joints doing a little bit of the drinking, to now. The lifestyle of a gang per se is you drink every day, you're a loiter, you do mischief, steal, you fight. So for me to be a part of this, I also have to participate. But the funny thing, I was never like that. Every time I'm around him I'm more timid, I'm like, okay, he's bigger than me, but I had to put on the mask because it did give me some place where I felt that, okay, I got people to like me, I got this by 1987 I was a full-fledged gang member.
Speaker 2:So I'm doing everything that a gang member does not. Just did I say the good things. It was different in the 80s, but now all the vacancies and voids in me like lack of belonging, I'm masked with drinking and laughing all day. My grades are declining, but hey, I'm having fun here Learning how to deal with stress getting kicked out of this school because I'm not doing my grades. My parents are on me. What do I do? Go to the neighborhood? What are we doing? Drinking more.
Speaker 2:So as time goes on, introduction of drugs, guns, now everything is robbing, beating people up. So I lived the lifestyle. I became a gang member. So I was doing everything a gang member did take advantage of the week, shooting at people, pulling guns on people, and actually that's not a good set of coping skills, you say, because for me as a gang member, the coping skills if you don't have money, you go take it, because that's the mentality of a gang member. Yeah, because, yeah, this is my block.
Speaker 2:I'm doesn't matter what I was feeling inside, because I've been shattered for a long time inside, right. So that's why it's easy that, why at that time, little obstacles were monumental and I took them to heart right when I came out, right before I went to the military. Uh, my girlfriend was pregnant. She aborted the pregnancy because I wasn't there. It wasn't until I was at the parole board where I had to understand what was the connection the emotional connection, the behavioral connection and my reliance on more drugs, more sex, more crime, more and more of everything. But internally I'm still just cr. But internally I'm still just crumbling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm still crumbling, I might play like I'm okay. My second child came out. The military thought that thing was nice and actually that probably was the most traumatic for me because in prison I learned I contributed to that. My girlfriend hired me to go to a shopping center in my neighborhood. A couple of my gang friends they beating up some girl in the middle of the street.
Speaker 2:I said yeah, baby, go get out and help them. She got kicked in the stomach, lost my child the same day, and only because I knew, because my mom is an OB-GYN midwife and she told me. So, learning all these things in prison like damn, but that was in prison. So the third one. Now, all these things are happening and my only coping mechanism was drink, smoke, act out so that my course of addiction weed, methamphetamine, cocaine, sherman, all these drugs, they got all type of chemicals. You know. So I'm not handling anything. Well, you know, I wasn't even a good gang member, you know, what I mean.
Speaker 2:So when it comes to addiction and the consequences of addiction, I couldn't make a rational choice, even if I wanted to, you know. So that was very even dealing with it now because I didn't have to go through that. Came from a good home, good education. Parents try to make the best way. That's why I say everything comes down to choice. Parents try to make the best way. That's why I say everything comes down to choice.
Speaker 2:Because I was so foregone in my addiction that by the time I got out the military I was worse, because now I'm a soldier in my military training I'm more callous, because the military makes you callous.
Speaker 2:I was already callous, being a gang member. So the addiction became worse. I remember in Calipatria State Prison I went to AA. I was in AA for 12 years. First couple of years I'm like, oh yeah, I'm not an addict because I didn't relate to the blackouts, everything that was associated with alcoholism, the blackouts, et cetera, et cetera. Quick to deny. You're like I'm not alcoholic, I just drink, never weighing out okay, how much were your losses, why you were in your addiction, what was your thinking? What was all these things? And they were all losses. So, leading up to my crime, I was an addict, probably everything thrill-seeking, ultimately taking a life, just because I couldn't handle my own shit.
Speaker 2:So, going up to the date that that happened, my girlfriend told me she lost a child. I committed contemplated suicide. Two days later, Sat on my bed naked with a gun, my thing was okay, just blow everything away. A picture of my mom came to my face. I shot two rounds into the wall and just left. Three days later is when the crime happened.
Speaker 2:I'm chilling with my gang friends, thinking everything is alright, but inside I'm pretty much imploding. Lifestyle of a gang member is an opportunist. It was the 15th. Everybody get their government checks list, like the UC payments here. And it's a liquor store right here where we hung out with a laundromat.
Speaker 2:So the only thing I was thinking about let's just get high, let's just smoke so you wouldn't feel anymore. I'm a bunch of feelings. So the first crime I actually did she said she didn't have any money. A bunch of feelings. So the first crime I actually did she said she didn't have any money Because naturally I'm not a criminal, but I became a criminal via a gang member. So she said she didn't have any money. So I didn't get what I wanted. I was still with the friends, I acted like everything's okay, but everything wasn't, because I didn't get my fix to deal with what I was dealing with and I learned that when I learned about denial A criminal, they are going to go through whatever they think until they get it and it doesn't have to be rational. So I went home that night, put on a hat and my grandmother said don't go out there Because something either looked a certain type of way. But she said don't go out there and that's the last time she's seen me.
Speaker 1:It's like she knew yeah, maybe she, maybe she didn't know, and not necessarily in like this spooky, you know, psychic way, but you know grand grandparents, they, they know shit they've seen shit as well. They're gonna see things in yourself that they've seen in other people before yeah, desperation is a bitch man exactly going back to, to where we are now. What does, what does having freedom mean to you now after such a long time with so many restrictions?
Speaker 2:Might be a paradox, but freedom is, for me, can't be actually free like that. Not free in the world sense, because in the world sense it won't be good for me.
Speaker 2:Freedom for me means being able to make the right choice, put the right plans, and the fact that I have the best outcome. That's freedom for me being able to make the right choice, put the right plans in effect, that'll have the best outcome. That's freedom for me being able to just go outside when I want to go get some ice cream, you know, or if I'm in a situation to where I need money before I just go rob. Being free now, being free to exercise and use the education I got while in prison and experience and go out there and get it. That's what freedom allows. Yeah, the same successes I was having in prison. Being free in the world just gives me a bigger platform with bigger tools to use bigger stress, of course, you know, but that's what freedom means to me Everything that I couldn't do.
Speaker 1:Is there a place where you visit where you feel like you're most free? I understand that you went to the beach this weekend, like after being in cells and things for so long. What's it like being in such an open place? Or is there anywhere else specifically where you do feel you are right? Yeah, you're most. Again, I'm going to use the word free, do you know? I do my music, yeah, so it's like a mental freedom yeah because do you not have like access to things like music and stuff in within prisons?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, got phones, they have tablets, they have buy cds, but this is a different environment. You have everything else to worry about. Yeah, you know, but me, my it's always been my safe place because I grew up in it, since my dad was a dj. My dad owned a club. I was a musician, I played in a band One of the best things gifts that God ever gave me but all I did was use down the street to get girls and dumb shit.
Speaker 1:I like the answer to that because I think one of the things that I heard before was the biggest prison is the prison of the mind, and it's interesting, after 31 years of being in an actual prison, when I've asked you a question about freedom, you've still gone to something that is a mental state of freedom in music. I think that's that's a really interesting answer, after such a long time there as well. Like I thought you was gonna say somewhere like being at a beach or something like that, but no, that's a completely different to what I'd expect no, because I had all of that before, all those things you know going out and going for a walk and all that I gave that up.
Speaker 2:I gave that up. Freedom for me is actually thinking for myself, actually going out and being a man, or learning what a man is and doing it. You know that's freedom for me, thank you. Freedom to say no sometimes, yeah, and in prison you can't really say no, so freedom is like no and with no explanation or necessary.
Speaker 1:Just the answer is no, and that's something that is all it needs to be, andre, I'm just going to finish with a set of 10 questions that I ask all our guests before we wrap this up. And do I get money at the end? Is this a big? Deal yeah yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's exactly how it works. What is your?
Speaker 2:favorite word, thank you, least favorite word no.
Speaker 1:Tell me something that excites you.
Speaker 2:Music Tell me something that doesn't excite you.
Speaker 1:Conflict. What sound or noise do you love Nature? What sound or noise do you hate? A woman crying.
Speaker 2:What's your favourite swear word? Fuck?
Speaker 1:off which I only bowed at. No no, that's fine. What profession would you like to attempt?
Speaker 2:What profession would I like to attempt Corporate?
Speaker 1:CEO, what profession would you not like to do? Nine to five? And then, lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear god say when you arrive at the pearly gates I'm proud of you. Thank you, andre, you've been wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on. The believing people podcast cheers man.
Speaker 1:Thank you, I enjoyed that, and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, please check out the other episodes and hit that subscribe button. We're on apple music and spotify, so please like and subscribe to be notified about our new episodes. You can also search for the Believe in People podcast on your favourite listening device and if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.
