Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#50 - Emma: Ecstasy Aged 13, Heroin, Amphetamines, Crack Cocaine, Snowballing, Maternal Conflicts, Parental Addiction, Multiple Overdoses & Naloxone Awareness
Join Matt as he sits down with Emma, who candidly shares her journey through addiction, beginning with her exposure to drugs at the age of 11.
Influenced by her father’s addiction and her grandmother’s role as a local drug dealer, Emma’s substance use quickly escalated - from experimenting with ecstasy and amphetamines to becoming dependent on heroin and crack cocaine by the time she was 23.
Emma’s story paints a vivid picture of the harsh realities of growing up in an environment shaped by parental addiction. She recalls pivotal moments, including a public overdose and the life-saving intervention of naloxone.
Beyond the physical toll of addiction, Emma addresses the stigma and personal shame that often accompany substance misuse. She also reflects on the emotional complexity of her experiences, emphasising the need for greater empathy in addressing addiction and recovery.
Click here to text our host, Matt, directly!
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma.
For our full back catalogue you can visit our website ⬇️
www.believeinpeoplepodcast.com
If you or someone you know is struggling then this series can help.
You can see selected clips from the series on social media: @CGLHull ⬇️
Facebook | Twitter | Instagram
We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.
This is a Renew Original Recording. Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast, a 2024 Radio Academy Award nominated podcast to talk all things addiction, recovery and stigma. Today I'm with Emma, who courageously shares her journey through addiction, multiple overdoses and recovery. Emma's story began with early substance use, escalating from cannabis and ecstasy to heroin and crack cocaine. Emma's story offers a raw look into addiction and the hope found in recovery. Emma, thank you so much for coming on the Believe in People podcast. I am glad to have you here. I'm going to jump straight in with my first question and I'm going to ask you to describe your addiction journey to us. What substances were involved and how did your addiction evolve over time?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so sort of from the age of 11 I started, which then led to smoking cannabis. My dad was an addict as well, so, yeah, then at the age of 13, I took my first ecstasy tablet At 13? At 13 years old, wow, yeah, yeah. So I mean, that was sort of the start really for me, pretty young, you know, amphetamines, cocaine which then led on to heroin. At the age of 23, I started heroin and crack cocaine which, yeah, for 10 years, for 10 years I was bad on the heroin and crack cocaine. For 10 years, um, I was bad on the heroin and crack cocaine, smoking it at first, but within six months it really, um, yeah, took a hold of me and I was injecting, injecting heroin, crack cocaine, snowballing you said then about your dad also being an addict.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very young age to start using substances, 13 in particular to be, you know, introduced to ecstasy. What were some of the circumstances going on in your personal life that resulted in you trying to find so I'm guessing some sort of escapism through substances?
Speaker 2:yeah, so, um, I don't really remember a lot of my childhood, to be honest. Um, I think there's a lot of trauma there. Um, my dad was an addict, like I've just said, and there was a lot of violence in the house, a lot of arguments, police at the door, a lot. Life was very chaotic as a child. So I was quite shy, quite timid, and then at the age of sort of I think I was around maybe nine or something like that we moved to an area where it was just the norm, like you'd just walk out on the streets and you know, people would be joint in one hand, beer in the other, my nana was the local drug dealer. Um, my nana was the local drug dealer and you could, you could buy alcohol from the houses on, you know, on the estate. My nana used to, you know, make alcohol and sell it. So it was.
Speaker 2:It was just, yeah, it's like my whole world, like so where, you know, from being a shy, timidid child to then sort of stepping into onto an estate where it was just really chaotic and the kids were wild and I quickly, sort of I had to grow up really quick and you know, because I remember, like, being in class and they were really wild the children, you know and I was like God, I need to step up a bit here.
Speaker 2:And I remember sort of trying my first ever drink. And so every weekend our house was very, very hectic. My mum and dad used to go to the local pub and every weekend it would be a big party back at the house and my dad used to bring like crates of alcohol you know Alka-Pops and I was really close with my brother so he's a year older than me and people used to think we were twins. I was really close with him. I've got two brothers and a sister, but yeah, so what I remember is me and my brother we were sneaking downstairs and taking the alcohol and that was my first sort of time, you know, experience alcohol, and I think for me it gave me a confidence that I'd never, never experienced before. So that was really the start of my drinking days.
Speaker 1:Really, I can see how that would happen as well, being being timid and talking about you know your peers at the time. Yeah, being wild as you've said. Yeah, this substance is now helping you get on that same level as them, and I guess was there something there about fitting in with those people that you wanted as well yeah.
Speaker 2:So, um, my dad had like a reputation like and I looked up, I looked up to my dad a lot Do you know what I mean? And I think I just wanted to have what he had. And I hated being shy, I hated being timid, but that's how I felt inside. But I was able very quickly to learn how to put my walls up and become a different person. You know, put this, uh, put this mask on, um, and, yeah, I think I went through most of my life being like that.
Speaker 1:To be honest, what were the circumstances to be introduced to mdma at such a young age? What were the circumstances that that led you to being introduced to ecstasy at 13?
Speaker 2:yeah so, um, basically, just at high school, I think, yeah, seven year, eight or something, at high school we all sort of like used to meet up on a weekend and uh, yeah, that one particular weekend, you know, because we all used to just get absolutely wrecked in the parks that was, that was our weekends really. Um, and some more. You know, I think at the time someone mentioned, uh, taking some pills and I was like, yeah, go on then, and so I remember like popping it and just had a mad experience on it, to be honest, it didn't scare me, do you know?
Speaker 2:I mean it really didn't scare me. And then it just sort of progressed into like a a weekend thing, meeting, our meeting each other and you know, taking, taking pills, really just like the norm. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:I think I've had this conversation before on like the cultural meeting each other and, you know, taking pills. Really it was just like the norm. Yeah, that's it. I've had this conversation before on like the cultural norms of teenagers in this country. It was to drink on the park and I guess that's something that we talk about now, when more adults who are still having substance misuse problems, that there is then behaviours that you associate with what you might have done as a teenager and they're called like Arrested Development Syndrome, where you just haven't like your body and with your age you've grown up but mentally you're still kind of behaving in the way that we did when we was like 14, 15 on the park, shouting at each other, being intoxicated in public, canning our hands in public places. All those things are still happening because, whilst they have got older, they just haven't matured in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think my brain has definitely not developed properly. I wasn't good at school. I had to have a lot of support and a lot of help and you know, family life was very chaotic and the thing with my house as well.
Speaker 2:It's like you know, if my parents did argue, you know as a child, hearing them arguing it can be quite traumatic you know, and but the next day it was just it, it wasn't spoken about, and I think that's how I learned how to be. You know, In my life I've had so much chaoticness but then just not talking about it and working through it, I didn't know how to. You know, I remember my ex-partner saying to me like you never talk about your feelings and your emotions, and I just I didn't, I couldn't.
Speaker 1:We kind of model our behaviours on the people who raise us, and if that's a house that you've been brought up in and that's what your parents did, they'd argue and then just not talk about it. You're going to be a product of that environment and behave in the same way, aren't you?
Speaker 2:And as an adult now, I know that my mum and dad both experienced massive trauma in their lives and they went through a lot and that's you know. I suppose that's developed the way they have been parents as well, to us as their children.
Speaker 1:I understand that. Tell me a little bit more about the daily challenges and I guess well the daily realities and the challenges that you'll face during those years of of this addiction um my daily challenges.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I just walked around just very timid for a long time and I just had to quickly grow up, you know, um, yeah, it's a bit hard with like my childhood sort of trying to explain that but I wasn't really good at school, I didn't. I didn't go to school, um, and I was. I suppose I started, um, I got into relationships pretty early, you know, in like my teenage years, um, but I was quite a vulnerable person and I let people take advantage of me, things like that. I had no self-respect, had no self-worth, um, you know, I just didn't love myself really yeah. Yeah, I was just a bit of a, I was a wild child.
Speaker 2:You know, I was getting in trouble with the police. I think I first got arrested around the age of 14, um, so when I started drinking, I became quite quite a violent person and I think a lot of that was things that have been suppressed and it was coming out in different, you know, when I was intoxicated, coming out in different ways, and I drink that bad that a lot of the time, I just couldn't remember half of the things that I'd done. Many times I woke up in the police station and I'd be like you know ringing the buzzer to ask the officers what I'd been arrested for.
Speaker 1:So was this during? Obviously, you said then that eventually you progressed to heroin and crack addiction as well. Yeah, how long was you addicted to heroin and crack? 10 years, 10 years? Yeah, talk me for a little bit about those 10 years, because I mean, what are some of the daily realities of being addicted to a substance like heroin and crack cocaine?
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you want me to sort of give you a little bit of a lead on that?
Speaker 1:Absolutely yeah, go for it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so at the time I had two children, so I had my daughter at the age of 18. I definitely wasn't ready to be a mum. I was just I'd not grown up myself. Do you know? I was just I'd not grown up myself. Do you know? I was with my ex-partner, who was also. He was in and out of prison a lot.
Speaker 1:But I suppose for me I was like he's a bad boy. There's some appealing about it.
Speaker 2:I find it very cringy, but at the time I looked up to him and I was like buzzing, I was in a relationship with him and um, yeah, so we had two kids together and he was always in and out of prison, um. And then he got in, he got done for a serious charge, um, and at this particular time I had a three-bedroomed house. It was a private rented property, um, and yeah, he got done for, um, quite a serious charge and he got seven years, um so. And then I just found out that my landlord was putting the the rent up on the property that I was living in. So basically I couldn't afford to pay, uh, the rent anymore.
Speaker 2:So I got moved into a hostel with my two children, but we already had social services involved. We had social services involved from I was six months pregnant with my daughter and I'd been drinking when I was six months pregnant and I got into a fight. So for 18 years of my life I've had social services involved. But, yeah, so I moved into a hostel and this is where I was sort of my heroin addiction started, introduced to it and didn't understand anything about heroin, I think for me, where I grew up, um, I remember a lot of the older kids, um uh, heroin addict walking through the street and it was like, yeah, dirty, smack head, you know the can I swear?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely the shit that they got um and that stayed with me. Um, so initially, when I first started taking heroin, it got out pretty quick because I was, you know, I was quite well known around the town. Um, so it got and people started talking but I just completely I denied it. I denied it. The shame, um, it was the fear and the shame of admitting that I'd taken heroin, purely because where I'd grown up.
Speaker 1:If you, you know the stick and the shit that I've seen people get yeah, um, that's interesting when you talk about how drugs and alcohol was used so much in that community than the way that it was. Yeah, but then heroin's the, the taboo subjects here, that that's the big no-no. It's always like stigma, isn't it, I suppose? But it's also the, the hypocrisy of the situation. You know, when people you know again, I've mentioned this before but alcohol can be just as damning as heroin. It's that lack of understanding of that, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, alcohol was a bad one for me.
Speaker 1:I'll talk about alcohol in a minute. But what was the? You said about being in the hostels. But what was that like? Was you said about being in the hostels? But what was the? What was that like? Was it? Was there a peer pressure element, or was it just life has got so hard for you right now that you needed to find some form of the ultimate escapism in taking heroin?
Speaker 2:what was going through your head at the time when you decided right, I'm gonna try this, I'm gonna try this drug yeah, I think, um, at the time I just sort of my partner had just got seven years, um, I had a lot going on, you know, social services were really on me, you know, um, and life was just very chaotic. And I remember that night, um, I'd been, I'd had a few drinks and uh, that's when I first sort of got introduced to heroin and I smoked it and also crack as well, for the first ever time. And I remember going back up to my room and just absolutely just being sick. But then after that I got a feeling of like, uh, what's gonna be? Uh, so like the world had just like it, just gone quiet. Do you know what I mean? Like I wasn't in reality anymore. I just I felt like I didn't want to be in reality.
Speaker 1:I found living really hard, um, yeah, because how old were your children around this time in the hostel with you? Um?
Speaker 2:so I think my daughter was around seven and my son was around three. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of uh, a lot of pressures that you was obviously going through at the time to try and find that.
Speaker 1:I think my daughter was around seven and my son was around three. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of pressures that he was obviously going through at the time to try and find that. I think when you're talking about all these things, you're experiencing it's, it's, there's a lot of noise there, so it's interesting that you use the term quiet. Yeah, I can understand why you'd, why that would be the case. You know how did it progressively get worse then, from when you was first introduced to it too?
Speaker 2:yeah, so um it just sort of with the person who I was taking it with first initially took it with um. She was a user herself and um daily daily user. Um so quickly I was. I started using it sort of like maybe once twice a week um but then quickly, you know, build that relationship with her and started it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just sort of over there how long did it take before you realized you was? Because obviously it's very addictive substance. At what point did you realize that you was actually dependent on it? Was it quite a quick thing when you realized you was dependent on it? Or was it because that's something that always interests me, because you know, we always say no, no one's born, no one's born.
Speaker 1:Thinking right, I want to be an addict yeah, yeah it obviously starts out as an experience that you enjoy and then eventually it's like, okay, no, this has got hold of me. It's gone from enjoying this substance to now needing this substance. Yeah, at what point did you realize?
Speaker 2:he was at that point, or, if you can remember yeah, um, I mean, it's sort of like within six months, um. So I remember her actually saying to me like you're gonna have to make a decision, emma, like if you're gonna carry on taking it, or um, stop, because you're to end up on a script, and I didn't have a clue.
Speaker 1:I said what do?
Speaker 2:you mean a script and she was like because you'll start getting poorly and thinking back to it. I remember taking my two young kids to the prison to visit the dad and I was really poorly that morning so I'd gone down to the doctors. I thought he had flu.
Speaker 1:Not realising, not withdrawal, you know that morning.
Speaker 2:So I'd gone down to the doctors I thought he had flow, not not realizing withdrawal. It was I must have been withdrawing. Yeah, because I didn't. I did not understand, like the, the dangers and you know the effects that you heroin, you know heroin use had. So yeah, um, so, thinking back, you know like now, and yeah, going to the doctors, I must have been withdrawing. Did the doctor know when you'd come?
Speaker 1:in yeah, he thought I had flu and just prescribed me some medication, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's interesting, depends, isn't it really? I guess it's about how honest you are with a GP. Isn't it as well like what you've been taking and stuff like that for them to work out? And it's about how honest you are with a gp, isn't it as well like what you've been taking stuff out from to work out? If you're not, and it's not something people are necessarily going to be honest about, is it? Yeah, like I've been taking heroin for x amount of time now, so and I guess that's an educational thing as well, isn't it like? I think that sounds like something you know. You talked about not going to school and and there seems to be, like, I guess, for you almost like a lack of awareness about these substances, and at such a young age, rightly so as well. Do you know you're not going to know about the dangers of mdma at 13, are you? It's not something we don't really discuss until people are in like their later teenage years, if anything, as well and same with heroin, no one's.
Speaker 1:I mean, I learned about heroin from, from being here yeah, do you know, actually I always I've said this before but I used to think heroin was quite a hard substance to come by and someone that I had in this podcast before said no, it's, getting it is as easy as getting a bottle of milk. It's, it's, it's absolutely everywhere. But I wouldn't have known that had I not been here, and I think so many people kind of think the same way. You know, like it's not as accessible as it is.
Speaker 2:Um I think as well for me. So quickly you start when the word gets out that Emma's using heroin, you start attracting people that are heroin users. So I started talking to this lad and he injected and he was the guy who injected me first. So he was injecting and again, again, had a couple of drinks and I was like, ah, you know how come you're doing that? Because I didn't know how to. I didn't even know how to smoke it.
Speaker 1:I had to get people to do it for me, to do it for you, yeah, yeah, just absolutely no knowledge or anything. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And yeah, he was the first person. He like oh you know, it's gives you a better buzz, and yeah, that's it. He injected me and that was as soon as, as soon as I injected it, that was.
Speaker 1:I think that's when my addiction with that yeah, yeah, yeah, I understand that, but talk me through a little bit about the I'm going. I'm going to use the term rock bottom moment. At what point did this get absolutely unmanageable and right? Something's got to change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I've had a lot of them. You know, I did try getting into recovery. A lot of the times it was social services breathing down my neck. But initially, like I lost my Within six months of moving into the hostel, I'd lost me two eldest children. So, luckily for me, my mum and dad brought them up. But, yeah, so far, after I lost my kids, I got kicked out of that hostel because it was, you know, it was onlyums and the children's um, and I got put into a, a single hostel. So there I am, six months later in this, you know, having one minute on my family, my home, my children, and now I'm in a box room, um, and life just went really chaotic for for many years, really, um, I remember, like you know, trying to go visit my, my kids at my mum's house and I was just really poorly, just going there, rattling like really badly rattling um, but for me, I think, the rock, you know, when I really sort of asked for the help. Is that what you wanted me to?
Speaker 2:yeah, when I asked for help and was back in 2020, and so by this time, um a lot had happened. I'd um. There's just so much to my story. Really tell me this is.
Speaker 1:This is the. This is the time to tell it, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:so I'll just sort of lead you up to 2020. So, while I was in that chaoticness, I ended up getting with someone else. He was a non-drug user at the time as well. We were just in that chaoticness together. I was injecting amphetamines. I was anything and everything really. I got a needle fixation where I was addicted to injecting myself, just covered in abscesses. I lost so much weight.
Speaker 2:And then, in 2017, I got done for something. It was an ABH at the time. I got done for an ABH and I went to Magistrates Court and they referred it to Crown Court, so they were going to let me walk out that day and I remember like all my family being at the back of their court just crying their eyes out just purely because of the state of me. You know, I was a complete just. I just wasn't there. I just wasn't there. I just wasn't who I used to be. You know, I'd just completely changed.
Speaker 2:So I actually asked my solicitor to ask the judge if they could send me to prison, because I thought that was the only way I could get the help and support that I needed and I thought, right, I'll go to prison, I'll get clean. You know, I'll work hard, I'll go to prison, I'll get clean. You know, I'll work hard, I'll go to the gym, and that's that was my mindset, you know, after years of chaoticness. So I did a little, a little bit of time in prison, and at the time the guy that I was with, he was also in prison, and then we both got out on the same day and just straight back into the, the madness you know, um, and then I fell pregnant with my, my son.
Speaker 2:He's six years old now, um, and I, you know, I was in this relationship but I didn't love the guy, do you know? I mean, it was purely just a drug-fueled relationship and that was hard sort of trying to stay in. You know, pretend like everything's all right and I love you.
Speaker 2:But you know, when you say to someone you love them but you really don't, and I was always thinking about my ex-partner, the father to me, my two oldest children, um, so that was a lot of pressure as well and you know, by this time I'd got like a flat, one bedroom flat, and he, you know he was staying with me. And then so I had my son, and social services were straight away involved purely because of my past, um and what and what had gone on before. So, yeah, um, I remember I was doing a little cleaning job with my mum at the time and after work I went and scored heroin. He was at home with our son and I ended up going over and the ambulance was called, you know, my life getting saved, but there's more. So I was drinking a little bit and trying to stay clean, you know, and to keep my son, but yeah, so next minute my son was taken off me, so he went to stay with my mum for a little bit. So, yeah, just I moved to my mum's for a little bit to support her with my son, to try you, you know, help her and sort of fight for him back.
Speaker 2:This was my youngest.
Speaker 1:This was there's a lot to my story. No, no, no, I couldn't appreciate it. Yeah, um, it's quite I. There's one thing that I do appreciate is that when, when we're talking to people on this podcast, we're trying to get a lifetime of experience told within an hour and you can you can only say so much, but I. But before we move on there, I want to talk about the overdose, because your story was brought to public attention. Uh, it was through a press release by the north yorkshire police, which detailed your overdose and the life-saving intervention with naloxone. So can you actually walk us through that day? What do you remember about the moments leading leading up to the overdose and the event itself and its aftermath? Because overdose is, yeah, some people well, naturally, some people don't survive an overdose. It's interesting to talk to someone who has gone through it, who experienced naloxone.
Speaker 2:So I'm really, I'm really keen to to learn about what that experience was like for you so that particular time um, because I know I know when you're on about so that was in 2021, just before I went into rehab when someone saved my life with my naloxone. But before that I was um, when I first started taking heroin. I used to go over quite a lot okay, and people just did.
Speaker 2:You know, the ambulances were always getting called out to come and save my life. The ambulances were always getting called out to come and save my life, but that particular time I'd been to work with my mum and then I went and scored and I can't really remember a lot of it, if I'm honest with you, but the ambulance was called out and apparently they brought me back to life. But in 2020 my life was actually saved by someone else who was an addict. So I was in this shared house at the time and I'd just gone and scored. It was just before I'd gone to rehab. I'd just lost again my two youngest kids, and I'll get into that in December 2020. So I was waiting to try getting to rehab.
Speaker 2:I was taking anything and everything and, yeah, so I had gone out and scored crack and heroin together and I was in someone's flat in a shared house upstairs Someone's flat in a shared house upstairs and I remember thinking, right, I'll just have half, half of each, but maybe me?
Speaker 2:I didn't listen to myself and I ended up having, you know, a bag of brown and 10 pounds bit of crack cocaine. And, yeah, I obviously injected it and next minute I'd gone over and, luckily for me, the lad who lived in the flat downstairs he's he, the guy who I was with, you know went and shouted him and he came running up and he had naloxone on him, um, and saved my life really. But I woke up and I was like not realizing I'd just gone over. I was just like I think he was just like emma, you've just gone, blue, and you you'd gone, do you know? I mean, I was like what you on about, um, and you're like I've just saved your life and he goes, the ambulance are on the way, and I was like no, no, I'm all right, um, but yeah, he saved my life, to be honest, uh, um, but that didn't stop me, um.
Speaker 1:I remember sort of 10 minutes after that I was, I was cooking up again because obviously, when you use naloxone yeah, you know, correct me if I'm wrong here it's taking the uh opiates away from the receptors of the brain, which does that instantly put you into a withdrawal. Are you coming out of naloxone instantly, needing to get another fix? Yeah, talk to me for a lot. And because it's one of the things where I've seen naloxone being used yeah, and in that instance, as you've said, that person saved your life. And I've seen it before where someone has saved someone's life with naloxone, yeah, and they've not been thankful for it because now they've gone into withdrawal yeah and it's almost like, yeah, I've saved your life, but you know, I've also provided you with a massive inconvenience as well.
Speaker 1:Is that what that was like for you? Was there some sort of anger around it? Because that's something I have witnessed.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was. I was not happy yeah but many times. Um. So I'd you know, many times, because I've had that many overdoses, I would wake up in hospital and be fuming Like why am I here? And knowing fine well that you know it has the opposite effect and it stops that feeling what the heroin does it stops the rattling, I'd get up and be straight out of hospital, you know?
Speaker 2:Or, like I said in 2020, when someone saved my life, I was absolutely. I was just like what are you on about? You know? And straight, all I wanted because someone had took my drugs, but I got them back off him but I just wanted my drug. I was like, where's the rest of my drugs?
Speaker 1:Do you know what I mean? And straight again.
Speaker 2:It's just mental when I think about it.
Speaker 1:Now it's just mental when I think about it now. I think it's hard. It's a thankless task almost, isn't? It you know, saving someone's life from an opiate overdose. That's how it's always looked at to me.
Speaker 1:You know, it has to be done and I think it's interesting. When you look back in the position you're in now, you'll look back at that much differently. Yeah, but at the time it's just, you have massively inconvenienced me by saving my life, and to someone with no knowledge of addiction or what it's like to be an addict, that almost sounds mental doesn't it?
Speaker 2:It does. It's just crazy. Waking up after an overdose is when someone's just said to you you was blue, Emma, right, he goes. I put a little bit of the naloxone in you, because I think there's about three shots in it, and he goes. I put a little bit of the naloxone in you because I think there's about three shots in it and he goes. I put half in Emma and he goes. You still was not coming round and he was like you were gone, but it just sounded like blah, blah, blah in my head.
Speaker 1:I was like I want my drugs.
Speaker 2:And I remember the ambulance turning up and I was like I'm all right. I'm absolutely fine. Um, all I wanted then was my drugs and it's just it's. It's crazy thinking about it now how did that?
Speaker 1:how did being, I guess, revived? I will use the word revived because it is. How did how did being revived with naloxone change your outlook on drug use and the potential for recovery? How sorry, so I'll say that again. So how did being revived with naloxone?
Speaker 2:change your outlook on drug use and the potential for recovery. How sorry. So how did I'll?
Speaker 1:say that again. So how did being revived with naloxone change your outlook on drug use and the potential for you thinking right, because obviously you've come out of there? Yeah you're not thankful for it. I'm absolutely in hindsight.
Speaker 2:You are now. You are yeah yeah, so what?
Speaker 1:what changed in that why? Why do you look back in a different way now? I look back in a completely different. I don.
Speaker 2:Why do you look back at it in a different way? Now I look back in a completely different. Do you know what? I look back today and I think how did I actually do all that to myself?
Speaker 2:I remember going to the doctors not so long ago to get some bloods done, trying to get my driving licence and not having a right to know of it all and I was really traumatised sitting in the doctors because he had to try to get my blood seven times and he still couldn't get me. My veins are knackered. Um, but it really traumatized me. Sat in that room, my hands were sweating and I was reliving moments from when I was injecting. But today I just I don't know how that, how I must have just been living in this like massive bubble and I don't know how I was going through life. But today I just think how did I do that?
Speaker 2:I could not possibly do that to myself again.
Speaker 1:The thing about the needles interest. I've got someone on my team that you know, opiate user for 30 years, he's the same. He hates needles now, which is bizarre considering what you know. Opiate user for 30 years, he's the same, hates needles. Now you said, which is bizarre considering what he, what you know, like the damage he's done to himself with veins, but the, as you've said, it's almost now like a trauma response getting your bloods done, those little injections that we, you get done by doctors in comparison to guarantee what you like you say if your veins are knackered. But you've cycled through different veins and things like that use different areas and yet there's almost like this was it would you say it was fear when they're bringing out the needles for blood testing.
Speaker 2:My hands are sweating, my heart's shaking, um, my heart's pounding, sorry, my hands are. Honestly, it's awful, but the thing is I knew that they were going to struggle getting my bloods anyway, um, purely just because my veins are just knackered. Um, and yeah, the seven times they had to try. But it was just like reliving it's like really traumatizing, it really is going back to naloxone.
Speaker 1:Um, what do you think needs to be done to increase awareness and access to what this life-saving treatment?
Speaker 2:I think there's some really great work going on at the minute. Um, I know that they've they're training the police up to you know, to carry naloxone. Um, and you know, in harrigan and different areas there's lots of um peer-to-peer groups, you know, going out on the streets and training people as well and giving out naloxone kits. Um, just keep spreading that awareness, really. Keep talking about it, because not a lot of people do know about what naloxone kits. Um, just keep spreading that awareness, really keep talking about it, because not a lot of people do know about what naloxone is no yeah, funny enough it's down to.
Speaker 1:So someone, not some girl was worried during a stop and search that they had that the police was going to take their naloxone from them because they would have thought it was a drug, do you know?
Speaker 1:and they said I had it hidden in my bag so they couldn't take it off me and I was like they wouldn't take it off you.
Speaker 1:But even people who are carrying it with them are worried that they're going to be like almost arrested for carrying substances on, when actually it's the complete opposite, and the police are aware of that as well. But there's still a lot of education that needs to be done around that and that it is safe to carry it and don't worry about I think it's that idea of it being a needle, it being related to opiates and substance misuse that they're going to get in trouble for carrying it. So I do agree there's there is a lot of awareness that that needs to be done. Um, let's talk a little bit about the support systems that that you've had in terms of you know, getting to that point of achieving recovery. Who were the pivotal people supporting you during your recovery and how did they help you navigate through that challenging time? Because I feel like we've got a bit of a gap here from yeah, from your point of overdose to you achieving.
Speaker 1:You know absence, because how long have you been clean?
Speaker 2:just over three years. That's incredible so I mean so.
Speaker 1:So what? What going from? Let's go from the 2020 overdose, then, because that takes us roughly. What was, what was it like in that year in terms of getting the support, and who was it that supported you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, didn't have a lot of support, if I'm honest with you. I had my kids removed from me in 2020, December. I think it was around sort of the 12th of December. That was a really traumatic event as well. And I'd like to sort of share.
Speaker 1:Yeah, talk me through that as well.
Speaker 2:So well, this is my first time sort of talking about it openly. A few people do know about it, but I do want to talk about it. So back in 2020, I had my two boys living at home with me. Um, I think they were like 18 months and three three years old at the time and, uh, I was just like again, just I was drinking and life were very chaotic. Um, but by this time I'd had another child. So earlier on I I'd had another child. So earlier on I said I'd had me one child, but then I'd had another child with the partner who I've got me two eldest children to, but he was, you know, got back in a relationship with him, but then he went back to prison and that relationship sort of ended. So, yeah, I took me boys into town with my brother my oldest brother at the time been drinking that morning.
Speaker 2:I was waking up by this time and I was needing a drink in the morning just to feel, okay, you just get really bad shakes, you know. So I remember, like drinking some wine in the morning, taking the boys into town with my brother. Didn't really know how the day was going to look and I remember that morning I was supposed to see my social worker and I think she was trying to get hold of me but I'd been drinking and just chaoticness. Anyway, this lad, a lad that I'd grew up with, knew him all my life really, and he lived around town and he had a flat. It was like a shared house, um, a little bit sort of. Later on, well, my brother he was supposed to be going moving into the homeless hostel that day. So he was like oh, can you stay in town with me, and that's like yeah, not a problem.
Speaker 2:You know, sort of stopping a few beers here and there, um. So then we decided to go up to my mate's flat and chill up there for a bit, took my boys up there and my boys were fine, they were just like bumping down the stairs and just playing, yeah. But it was just I shouldn't have had my kids there, do you know what I mean? It was a chaotic house anyway and we were just, we were just all drinking and stuff. And a little bit later on in the evening I mean maybe about maybe five, five or something like I, just my son just looked really hot, like because he had his coat on and I was like so I thought, oh, it's just really hot. So I took his coat off and then uh took his coat and he had like a jumper. So I took that off as well, and underneath his jumper he had like a little vest on, um, and next thing I just seen like a red mark on him. I was like, oh, what's that, do you know? I mean so, um, so I've rang him up and I'm like, look, sonny's got this mark, uh. So my mum and dad uh came and picked me up. I was I intoxicated, I'd been drinking. So Mum and Dad got me in the car. They were like, right, you need to take him to hospital, just so they can have a look at it. But I was like, mum, I can't, I've got social services involved, I'll have my kids taken off me. I've been drinking. So I was like he's fine, he won't cry or anything, we're absolutely fine. So I just thought I'll get her and put into bed. You know, just not really thinking really, to be honest. So I put a bit of Sudocrem on him, I put him into his cot and my mum and dad then I know it now but they decided to ring the ambulance. You know, get the ambulance down. So next minute they're knocking at my door. So I'm like, yeah, come in.
Speaker 2:By this time both the boys were fast asleep, you know, one was in his car and one was in bed, um. So I was like, yeah, go upstairs. So he's like, woke him up and started having a look. So he's like, right, we're gonna just take him to hospital, you know, just for further checks. I'm like, right, okay. So we got in hospital van and, yeah, I just took the boys up there. My mom had to. My mom got called so she could come and get me of a boy, um, but yeah, it was just I didn't know what had happened and when, when we got to hospital, it was like he had the red mark there and next minute it like spread all around his body and I was just like wow, I said it wasn't like that in the first place.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, they started treating it as burns, um, and then I said I stayed overnight and the next morning the the police came and arrested me in the hospital, um, for child neglect. So I went up to the police station, had to get interviewed and stuff Just sort of talked through the night where I'd been, how much I'd been drinking. I was trying to give them as much information as I could. And then they put me on bail but I wasn't allowed back to the hospital, I wasn't allowed to see my son. They put me on bail, but I wasn't, I wouldn't allow back to the hospital, I wasn't allowed to see my son, um, and then, yeah, so then I just felt just like my whole life had just fallen to bits, you know, I mean it was just like what's going on? And I just said to mom. I said you know, I think I need rehab. My mom, like, really I need to go to rehab, I need to sort my life out. Uh. So my mom, you know I reached out to horizons and things like that and I was like, lord, really want to go to rehab. But I think with horizons you've got to be accessing the support groups and things, and so I never got rehab through them. It was actually my mum, but while this is, you know, my while all this has happened.
Speaker 2:So after seven days, um, it had all cleared up on my son and he then got put into foster care. They did ask my mum if she would take him on, but she just said she couldn't. She couldn't do it, it's too much. She already had three of my children, do you know? I mean, she'd find it too hard because sonny was only 18 months at the time. Um, so he ended up going into foster care and I know that he got moved to four different foster parents within the first four months, four, five months, um, but then he did settle down with a foster parent and I was still on bail. I was on a bit, I was on bail, for I ended up going to rehab. Sorry, I'm just trying to get all this like just get it all in um.
Speaker 2:So it was my mum who got me into a rehab and I had my interview and I got my date. It was the 14th of April. I went to rehab 13th of April sorry, 2021. And in that time I was still living with all you know all this, like oh God. It was just like shame and the guilt and not knowing what had happened to my son, I was on bail. It was awful, really it was awful. It was traumatizing. So I went to rehab. I worked really hard on myself. I came out after seven months, months and I thought, right, I'm going to go fight for my kids now. So when I got out of rehab, I got charged. I got charged for child neglect.
Speaker 1:What was it? Because you said they were treating it for burns. I'll tell you I didn't know at this stage. You're still not aware of it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they didn't have a clue as to what it was and also at the time. So just sorry I forgot this bit. So just before I went into rehab a picture had got out of the marks on my son and it got put onto social media and people saying I deserve to be dead and things like that which were really it were horrible, to be honest, because I thought you know anyone that knew me.
Speaker 2:I was, you know I had my problems, but I loved my kids do you know what I mean? But basically just people judged me there and then without knowing anything really. So, yeah, so when I came out of rehab I did get charged. I got charged for neglect. I went to Crown Court and the judge stood me up and he had a picture from what the hospital had taken of the marks on my son and he said to me he goes. I have wrote prison on here in red pen because I was going to send you to prison today, emma, but he goes.
Speaker 2:I've just read a report this morning of um, a plastic surgeon. He's been a like a professional plastic surgeon, been in his role 25 years and dealt with so many cases. I'd looked into your case, um, and he. The conclusion was that it wasn't a burn. What had happened is so, when he's got hot washing it like washing it. A household chemical, like washing powder, had not been rinsed out of his vest properly and that has then caused a chemical reaction with his sweat to cause the marks around his like a burn marks around his vest oh interesting honestly, I just I just started crying.
Speaker 1:I'm like wow, just yeah, it was just to talk about the, the trial by social media as well. I guess one of the frustrating things is do you know, once you're judged for something and it goes into the public I use newspapers an example. A newspaper could write a damning report about someone and then, if it's inaccurate, they'll post, uh like an apology or something. It turns out it's just this tiny little bit, so this could have been a story in the front page of the news, but because it was wrong a few few days later. It's the tiniest little bit and it's like it never really undoes the damage that can be caused by something like social media. Did you find out how those pictures got out? Who?
Speaker 2:shared, you did.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, that's fine, that's understandable, but but to have that in, to be in that position, have that put out in public and I guarantee you you know the reality of that situation and it being the chemical reaction to something that's not then going to be shared all over social media. Is it in the same way that the, the negativity that you would have received, would have been over a social media and I just think that can be. That can be really shit guy really to be on the receiving end of that, it was awful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's something I deserve to be dead and stuff I know without knowing the full circumstance but then that's probably down to as well if people, if people know that you are an addict, like if that happened to my daughter yeah I guarantee you I I wouldn't get that type of backlash because I'm not using substances, I'm not a known drug user.
Speaker 1:It'd been like, well, how has this happened? There'd be questions there, but I don't think I'd be damned in the way that you have, and that's partly down to having a history of of drug addiction and alcohol addiction, as you've alluded to as well. Yeah, christ on, but yeah um. Is there anything else you want to want to talk about based on?
Speaker 2:based on that topic, though yeah, I mean like today, like my son's, like he's nothing there, of course. Yeah, I've got my boy back with me today, yeah, living with me, and talk me through.
Speaker 1:Talk me through because it's rare that we get to have these conversations. People have had their children taken off them, so talk me a little bit about that process, of what it was like to, of what you had to do then to get your children back, because is it four children you've got taught me for that process of being able to be able to have your four children living with you again, and what that was like for you I had to do a lot of you know, a lot of hard work and you know I did my rehab for seven months and coming out of rehab, um, you know, I just quickly I got in touch with the drug and alcohol service and I was like, right, I'm in recovery, where's the support groups who can support me?
Speaker 2:And quickly I was able to build a lot of support around me and just yeah, working with them, just being committed really and, you know, doing things that was asked of me and yeah.
Speaker 1:How did that professional support, uh, compared to the support that you were receiving from friends or family? Because I think, obviously, if you look at when we talk about recovery, it's, it's holistic, it's all encompassing you. Yes, you need professional support, but if you're getting professional support without personal support, there's going to be challenges there. If you're getting personal support about professional support, there's going to be challenges there. There needs to be that combination. You've spoke about your parents having problems with substances, but then they obviously was at least well enough to be looking after your two older children yeah yeah, um what?
Speaker 1:tell me how it all sort of linked together?
Speaker 2:yeah, so, um, I suppose, when I was actually at crown court um the judge did uh, he put he gave me 30 rare days um community days, purely because I didn't take my son straight to the hospital yeah which is that's fine you know, I get that yeah and through that um, I was able to meet a lovely probation officer and, honestly, her support was massive Because I'd been on probation many, for many, many years.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 2:I suppose I was a different person then to what I was. Do you know what I mean? So when I was on probation before in active addiction, I didn't appreciate probation, I didn't like it, I hated going to know my appointments. But then, um, on my recovery journey I think, I just grabbed all that support, um, you know, and really uh, just sort of took it as a positive and I was able to build a really good relationship with her. I remember, like monday, I used to see her um for 18 months and you know she was just always she'd see me in all different kinds of states because it was hard. It was a hard process that I had to go through fighting for my son.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, proving that I'd changed, I'd come up against so many barriers because of who I used to be in my past, and even with housing, you know it, just it was. It felt like it was never ending. There was constantly hurdles throughout my recovery journey. Yeah, um, but I think for me I had a good support network, people that I met in groups, my probation officer that was there for me weekly and she'd be like you, get your armor on emma and you keep going.
Speaker 2:She was absolutely honestly like she was absolutely amazing. Um, and then I was, I was just working with, I had a therapist, so I I was homeless when I come out of rehab so I lived in the homeless hostel for a bit.
Speaker 1:Massive support network that's a good thing, because that can be quite a tricky place. Coming out of detox, I really have to live in a homeless hostel.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, but what I've done is I I got a job so I was working. I was out of the door for six o'clock in the morning. I was working in a factory. So as soon as I came out of rehab, I was looking on facebook. I was like, right, I need to, I need to get some routine in my life, some structure, um. So I got myself a job through an agency and I was just packing packing, yeah, but I absolutely hated it. Um 40 hours a week I were doing, but it kept me. It kept me busy. Um, and also with the homeless project yes, I was living there. Yes, there was a lot of people that I knew and you know I'd used previously with, but I think for me, I just kept really busy. I was at meetings every day. I was, my calendar was packed out. You know that's what you've got to do and you've got to fill your time, I think so many people that I've spoken to that have experienced lapses or relapses.
Speaker 1:and you go. What happened?
Speaker 1:Everything was going so well, I got bored and it's like ah, and sometimes that and boredom can be one of the biggest triggers for a lapse or relapse. So you're done right there to fill the time where you are and again, I know not all jobs are enjoyable, but fucking better than the alternative. Surely? People talk about heroin and obviously sometimes there's comparisons to the heroin of the 80s, like, oh, it's a fraction of what it used to be. When people get, like as we've said, a bag of heroin, something that I've heard is that only a small percentage of it is actually heroin. The rest is just and they've used the term shit the rest is just shit From your experiences as someone who's been on the receiving end of it and they've used those substances.
Speaker 2:What is that? What is that shit that people are talking about? Then it's just mixed with all different. It can be mixed with all different kinds of things in it. Yeah, so it's obviously like nitrozine being being one of the things that people are talking about on the fentanyl, whatever they feel like, whatever they want to mix and did that not as someone using the substance?
Speaker 1:did that not scare you or did you know?
Speaker 2:no, did you not?
Speaker 1:think obviously you don't know what you don't know what you're taking. Yeah you just, I didn't know what I was putting into my veins yeah, is that weird to look back on now in the position that you're in that you did that not knowing what it was. Yeah, but you understand it as well did what sorry did? Do you not look back at that and think that was fucked up, that was putting shit into my body that I didn't even know what it was? Yeah, it was really messed up, Like I just I can't.
Speaker 2:It blows my mind and I just think how did I do that to myself?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It really does, and I was talking about it the other night to someone and I just think how did I, you know, how did I do that to myself?
Speaker 1:it's yeah going. But going back to to just on the topic of family support and those networks, yeah you've, uh, you you've talked about your older children. How old are they? Them too?
Speaker 2:so my daughter, she's nearly 18, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:And me, my son, he's 14, yeah, yeah what is their understanding of your addiction now and how did it impact them?
Speaker 2:my son doesn't say, my 14 year old doesn't say a lot. He's very laid back and I think they've sort of been sheltered from it because my mum my mum's brought them up. You know, my mum's not a drug user she's pretty she's on the straight path.
Speaker 2:Um, but yeah, my daughter, I mean she, it's really put a dent in our relationship. To be honest, I don't really have a relationship with my daughter. I hold a lot of guilt for that and you know I remember her saying you don't feel like my mum, and I get that, do you know what I mean? Because I haven't really been there for her. So it's massively dented mine and my daughter's relationship. And I think as well, because I think in their eyes they must think well, how come my mum fought for the younger boys but she didn't fight for us? You know there must be.
Speaker 2:I would think that as a you know as someone's child, and they don't ask me, but they must think why did my mum not fight for roles at the time and you said it yourself, though you, as a child yourself, that would be like your daughter at 18.
Speaker 1:Now that would be like you, being a grandparent at this age if she was to. You know have gone through, through, you know, not necessarily going through what you've gone through, but was to have a child at the same age that you had one.
Speaker 2:So that's you know, and you probably look at your daughter as a child now, I'm guessing even at 18 yeah, yeah that's it's I think for me, like when I lost them it's, you know, life was very chaotic, um, but I just got on the heroin and just very quickly, the heroin, the heroin had just gripped me. You know it really hardened. I couldn't control that. Really I remember, sort of like my dad, like come on, emma, you can get off it, fight for your kids. Because you know it had to go through a court case.
Speaker 1:I didn't even turn up to court you know you always say you can't do it for other people, though can know when you, when you get to that point, you've got to do it for yourself. And if you're not willing to do it for yourself, how are you going to help other people? Yeah that's, that's the swings of it um a lot of experiences there and I realized we can't go into, you know, just because of time we're only talking about a fraction of your experiences of course, but but based on those experiences, what advice would you give to someone who's currently struggling with addiction?
Speaker 1:what would you say to their family and friends, who are trying to support them as well?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think so. Um, I think for me, like a connection always comes up. It's about having that support, um, wrapped around the person, um, and I think as well, like educating. You know, I think if I would have known a bit more about what trauma was, and you know, when I went into rehab it was massively eye-opening. I were like you know, wow, I didn't know about trauma, I didn't have an understanding of that, I didn't you know, and so I think rehab definitely helped me so it connects the dots, doesn't it a little?
Speaker 2:yeah, rehab massively helped me, and you know anyone struggling out there, rehab, and if rehab is the option, then definitely go for rehab. And just reaching out and whether that's, you know, there's lots of online meetings, there's in-person meetings, and if that person is not able to go themselves, you know, like the family members or support workers, if that's social workers, um, just being there and you know saying, look, I'll take you to the, I'll take you to the meetings, and things like that really yeah, and I think, going talking about family and friends, it is quite easy for for family to not understand what addiction is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and see what it's like as well. Yeah absolutely.
Speaker 2:I, you know, I was in a meeting the other day and you know the person, the mum didn't understand and it's like well, take, take them to the meeting, so then they can, you know, hear real people sharing real life stories, so that maybe they can get a little bit of understanding yeah, you talked about your dad obviously being in recovery as well.
Speaker 1:Um, how did your dad's support influence your recovery journey?
Speaker 2:um, so my dad's, he's all my dad. He's not fully in recovery. He still has, you know, he has his addictions Alcohol for him and cannabis is, you know, a hard one for him. He's just so. He's 60 years old, stuck in his ways, but the things he does in the community and you know he's not, I suppose, with my dad he finds it hard on the night time. So when he's finished what he's doing through the day he's absolutely fine. He'll then go home and he'll, that's what we were talking about.
Speaker 1:He'll want his beard, you know.
Speaker 2:But when he's out with us he's just so busy. But my dad's been a massive support there for me while I've, you know, got the job through Connected. Spaces because it's all new. It's new to me.
Speaker 1:It's new to me.
Speaker 2:I've never worked in recovery. I've done recovery, but I've never worked in this sort of line of work. So, it's all new doors to me and he's been there for me really, yeah, supporting me with that, and yeah. I suppose I've always looked up to my dad and I've always been a daddy's girl. Do you know what I mean? And yeah, yeah, he's a good it's nice that you see.
Speaker 1:You know, I know you said obviously he's still still got a couple of things that he's dealing with, but to still look at him and have that yeah, you know, to be inspired by him, that's that's really nice. I think that's all any dad wants really from the children is to to inspire them and to motivate them, really isn't it? I think that's a massive thing. So to do that in a way, you know, credit to him and job done you don't have to worry about me anymore.
Speaker 2:Exactly, go chasing drug dealers and you know, honestly, I can, only can only imagine.
Speaker 1:Um, do you know? You said earlier about people sharing you know things about you on social media and things like that. So how do you handle the stigma associated with your past drug use and what I guess? Going back into thinking about society as well, what changes do you believe need to happen in terms of the society perception of addiction and and recovery?
Speaker 2:um, I think we're already sort of doing it and it's just. It's just, you know, there's so many people that live, that are living now and just so scared to speak out and isolated. But I think for me, what I've seen is there's just people are talking about addiction more and recovery and stigma, and I think the more we keep talking, the more we keep sharing the awareness, you know, addiction is real and the more we keep tackling that stigma. Um, you know, we just keep going.
Speaker 1:Really, absolutely yeah as I finish off every podcast it's not related to anything that we've spoken about so far. Quick fire questions. I say quick fire, no one ever answers them quickly, but we're gonna try. My first question is what is your favourite word?
Speaker 2:oh amazing least favourite word oh god, now you're putting me on the spot.
Speaker 1:I don't know anything go for it addiction tell me something that excites you seeing other like supporting other people.
Speaker 2:Tell me something that doesnites you. Seeing other like supporting other people.
Speaker 1:Tell me something that doesn't excite you.
Speaker 2:Oh God, computers, like computer work and yeah.
Speaker 1:What sound or noise do you love?
Speaker 2:I love music.
Speaker 1:What sound or noise do you hate? My own voice sometimes what's your favorite swear word? Uh, fucking what profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
Speaker 2:uh, what profession, if you?
Speaker 1:weren't working in this, in the recovery sector now, have you ever had a dream job that you thought, fuck, I'd love to do?
Speaker 2:I wanted to be a nurse when I was younger.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what profession would you not like to do? It probably a carer, like like wiping people, yeah, wiping asses, things like that, yeah, I understand that cleaner yeah and then, lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear god say when you arrive at the pearly gates?
Speaker 2:oh, wow, that's a. That's a beautiful one. Um, I don't know, just maybe something like you, I don't know you've tried your best in life and you've supported as many people as possible and you, you know, yeah, yeah, that's brilliant. Wow, it's a heavy question emma, thank you so much for coming on the believing people podcast.
Speaker 1:You've been wonderful brilliant and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, please check out the other episodes and hit that subscribe button. We're on apple music and spotify, so please like and subscribe to be notified about our new episodes. You can also search for the believing people podcast on your favorite listening device and if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.
