Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#49 - Johnny Borrell: Razorlight, Teenage Heroin Addiction, Rock Star Stigma, Belfast Recovery, Landfill Indie & A Prescription Of Championship Manager
Johnny Borrell, guitarist, singer, and frontman of Razorlight, sits down with Matt for an in-depth discussion about his teenage heroin addiction, his journey to recovery, and the stigma that surrounds these experiences.
Johnny opens up about the challenges he faced after being ousted from his band due to drug use, and how he eventually regained control of both his life and his music with the help of close relationships and a crucial time filler with Championship Manager.
He reflects on the immense pressures he encountered while recording his first album, which led to a relapse, and the stereotypes musicians often face, as well as the common misconceptions about drug use in the music festival scene.
The Believe in People Podcast explores addiction, recovery and stigma.
If you or someone you know is struggling then this series can help.
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This is a Renew Original Recording. Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast, a 2024 Radio Academy Award nominated podcast, to talk all things addiction, recovery and stigma. My name's Matthew Butler and I'm your host or, as Alex say, your facilitator. Today I'm with Johnny Borrell, the guitarist, singer and frontman of the band Razorlight. Johnny joins us for a deep and honest conversation about his teenage heroin addiction, his journey to recovery and the stigma that often surrounds these struggles. He opens up about the difficult times he faced after being removed from his band due to drug use and how he gradually regained control over his life and music with the help of close relationships and an unexpected comfort in playing championship manager.
Speaker 1:As we explore this a little further, johnny reflects on the immense pressures he experienced while recording his first album, which led to a relapse, and we delve into the stereotypes musicians frequently encounter, as well as the common misconceptions and tribalism about drug use within the music festival scene. Johnny, thank you so much for joining us on Believe in People. Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to have you here, obviously conscious of time, and just here backstage at Live at the Yard. So I've got a few things that I want to talk to you about today, primarily about your addiction. You've been very open about your struggles with heroin addiction at a young age. Can you walk us through the moment when you realized that you needed to change and what was the turning point in your decision to go cold turkey?
Speaker 2:Oh well, yeah, I see're gonna, we're gonna have a meaningful we're gonna have a meaningful interview.
Speaker 1:I like this.
Speaker 2:I like this um, okay, so, so, dispensing with the usual chit chat which I which I really appreciate um, uh, you know, I think, like most uh heroin users, there's not, there's not one time, because you try so many times, you try and fail, and, uh, I mean, but I do have one. I have one memory which was uh, there was I can't remember how old I was, I must have been 18 or something like that and I was I was playing bass in a band. Um, there's a guy called ben smith who had a band called, uh, stoney sleep, and then he had a band called seraphim and I really respected him as a writer and, uh, I joined the band to play bass and it was going pretty well, uh, and then, and then he he'd had some problems with his previous bass player because who was a friend of mine as well, who was using, using, was jacking up and all that. And then he fired me after about four, like you know, four days. And I remember standing there and I and he was like listen, I'm really sorry, but I, I, you know, I've got to fire you because I just can't, you know, I know that you're using and I can't do another band because he'd had a big record deal that had fallen through and he's like I can't do another band with someone that's using and I remember standing there and I remember being I was ready to just go into full on denial, like double down and just go, but I'm not using man, you know like.
Speaker 2:You know, you know his shades on, you know what I mean. Cover the pins and I'm like I'm not using man and and then, and then I just kind of like I just thought I was. I used to try and dress like uh, peter Cook, right, and I was wearing like the pinstripe suit with like this red t-shirt with no sleeves and like these trainers, right, and I had this like old pinstripe suit and I had, like I had a bunch of pockets and like in every pocket pretty much was a different drug.
Speaker 1:You know what I mean?
Speaker 2:I just kind of like I could just feel them glowing like that you know, I mean including my heroin, and I was like I was about to bullshit him, like you would you know, I just go but I'm not using.
Speaker 2:And I just looked at him I just said yeah, fair enough. And I remember I remember sort of like uh, yeah, I remember just, I remember thinking like, yeah, man, that you know that sucks, you know, and that was a moment where I was like that was the first time that I'd really consciously realized that using could get in the way of trying to do what I wanted to do, which was be a musician, you know.
Speaker 1:Because the interesting thing about your story? I think a lot of me included. When I heard that you were someone who had gone through heroin addiction, I instantly thought it was famous rock star heroin addiction. But all this came before, didn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 2:I mean absolutely and and uh, it was.
Speaker 2:That was kind of, in a way, the best thing that happened ever happened to me because we had I mean, like most heroin users, you tend to sort of develop a little nucleus, a little family, you know. I mean that you use with and uh, I was 16 the first time I used and then that was with john hassell, who was the bass player in the libertines. And by the time, you know, by the time we, by the time we both got to like 20, we were both pretty much clean you know, and then so bands getting our respective bands getting signed and getting out there was like we'd already been through it, which was really well.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like this london, like accelerated growth you know thing, but like it was really unusual and I think, and john sort of turned to um, you know, he turned to buddhism and stuff like that. So by the time the libertine started and was taken off, he was no longer drinking, he's no longer, you know, doing anything you know and and and.
Speaker 2:Likewise for me, by the time razor light got going, I mean, uh, I did fall off the wagon in the first year of razor light, but in terms of, in terms of heroin, it was done. You know, I mean, I was, I was clean by about 2021 and uh, you know I mean so I'm jumping right in. But you know, I, I had this moment in about 2001 where just everything got real. You know, I lost a couple of friends in a car crash. In fact, one of my friends was, they were, they were in a band. Three of the band got wiped out. They were 19 years old uh, I was 20, I guess and uh, one of them was one of my using friends as well and uh, you know, I had a.
Speaker 2:Yeah I had some really bad stuff in a relationship and I just had this like this moment where where everything kind of got super real.
Speaker 1:So it was like, yeah, I kind of got to sort this out yeah, I do know it's so good, like you said, getting it out of your system then, but the temptations when I say getting sound, and the momentum that the that yourself had with razor light, the pressures that you might have experienced there because naturally you're in those environments where it is a party lifestyle as well yeah yeah, like, how was you keeping yourself I'll use the word safe?
Speaker 1:how was you keeping yourself safe from these temptations that you know you may have, may have encountered?
Speaker 2:well, I think the thing for me was that I knew that if the thing is, once you've I mean not to be too flippant about it, but once, once you've been a heroin addict, there's not really any other drug that does it for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah right so you hit the top there, so I wasn't gonna you know, nothing else was that appealing, you know I mean and that whole sort of like showbiz cocaine lifestyles never appealed to me.
Speaker 2:I've never, I've never had any interest in cocaine, I mean, and uh, uh. So it was kind of like if I was gonna get into it pretty much I was I knew I'd get back on the gear and I knew if I got back in the gear that would kind of destroy everything. But I actually did a we, we ended up recording the first album and it got to a really high pressure situation and I actually I, I, I. That was when I did fall off the wagon.
Speaker 2:That's when I relapsed and I said to um, I said to my tour manager you know, can you get me some, can you get me some gear? And I did, and I was kind of doing it. We were out in this residential studio in in um, in uh, cornwall, and it was great because, being a rock star, right, so I could at least cover up the pins. And then, like I also had scabies at the time, which is like these little mites that live under the skin so I could just.
Speaker 2:I was itching all the time as well which is another giveaway when you're, when you're, when you're stoned, right. So I was like I was just itching and just like wearing my shades. All the time I was just the scabies you know, and I'm like uh, most people knew, but not everyone picked up on it. But I met, I did a deal with my manager. I said to him look, who's one of my best friends? I said to him look, I'm scoring and I'm doing this so I can finish the album, because I just need something to get me through this and if I'm still doing it in two weeks, I want you to just like cut me off.
Speaker 2:Like don't help me, don't call me back. You know what I mean. Just like don't work with, don't call me back. You know what I mean. Just like don't work with me.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like literally, like like just asking him to do this and yeah you know, I managed to get in and get back out again, which was uh, which, which worked, but, like you know, um, yeah, so, apart from that, um, yeah, that was, you know, it was just kind of like what, what? Um, you know, for me was like, yeah, music was, was, was has always sort of been the first thing yeah and and anything that was going to get me in the way of that was going to get in the way of that for me was I was.
Speaker 1:I was going to turn away from that eventually I like that because I've spoken with so many people have kind of gone through, gone through heroin addiction and for a lot of people they haven't been able to put anything above that addiction as a way of kicking it in terms of even the children. It's like heroin is always coming at number one. So it's really interesting it shows how passionate you are about music and making a success of it if you was able to put something in front of heroin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's hard.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Oh my god.
Speaker 2:And the thing is is like that, that like getting clean is one thing, but then staying clean, whoa so hard. Yeah, you know, and you're like I was. I was lucky man because I ended up I had a girlfriend who was from, from belfast. Yeah and uh, I went with her out to you know, I got my script and all that and then I went with her out to to belfast and I didn't know, I'd never been there before, but that was like. That was probably one of the few places in the UK where I wasn't able to score yeah because it was like it was just some vibe.
Speaker 2:normally I'd go up to anyone on the street and just like you know, but there it was like if you ask the wrong person you could get into a lot of trouble, and I think I kind of picked up on that and, uh, I don't know I was, I was just lucky and I just, you know, I had good people around me and stuff. So it was kind of like you know, but that thing I really remember that thing of just like what's going to happen, even chemically, I believe your brain is not going to produce any serotonin for months and months, and months and you're just like nothing's working. Yeah, you know, and the worst thing was in all my previous attempts attempts, every time I would like um, every time I would like relapse. You know it was like everyone would be like, oh wow, you're back to yourself, you know you were celebrating.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we got joey on johnny, but yeah you said that about the scripts, like so you've been on, been on a methadone program as well yeah, yeah, what was that like for? Was it because some people can be on methadone for like almost their entire lives? You know it can last for years? Yeah, well, I didn't really.
Speaker 2:I mean, it was like, okay, I I sort of thought this is not going to get me off anything, this is just this is going to help the physical side of it, but ultimately I'm going to have to jump and you know, it's like I'm standing on the bridge over the water and I'm going to have to jump at some point. Yeah, so yeah. So it was kind of like yeah, at some point I'm gonna have to jump.
Speaker 1:So I did the cold turkey thing. I read a story was it championship manager? Or something that you spend so much time on? Like you gotta, you gotta talk to them, like because if that, if that is a way that someone can, you know, kick a heroin addiction, we need to hear it. Like, what's that story?
Speaker 2:champ man. Yeah, I don't know if I. Yeah, probably. I mean, like, a lot of blokes of my age have probably killed a lot of time playing champ manager, or football manager, as it's called now. Right, yeah, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, there was a sort of period, like I said, in that thing, where you're trying to, when you just don't feel good about anything, yeah, so you're breaking it down. I, I would try and break it down, uh, into the tiniest steps imaginable, because if you tried to think like how's anything going to be good from here, it was just impossible. But I'd go to myself. Okay, I feel like you know, I feel like shit. What can I do in the next five seconds that might make me feel better? Yeah, and it literally, to the point, was like I'm going to walk to the other side of the room, right, okay, I got to the other side of the room. I feel shit. Okay, what am I gonna do in the next five seconds that might make me feel better? Do you know?
Speaker 1:I mean, it was literally taking it minute by minute at times I like because I I hear people say you know, it's like the whole one day at a time yeah that is, that is the mantra, but at times it was like minute by minute. That's what I mean, literally going like well, what other choice have I got?
Speaker 2:yeah like I cannot see how, like a week from now is going to be any better than this or anything yeah, but if I can make a 0.000001 improvement yeah on how I feel right now in the next 10, 15, 20 seconds at times. You know I mean then, let me try and do that yeah and that was kind of like. That was kind of, yeah, my process but I mean yeah, I was like, yeah, many, many hours, many hours of uh champ man I just love that.
Speaker 1:We're talking about methadone and you know prescriptions from effort like let's prescribe people. You know two weeks solid on champ manager.
Speaker 2:I remember you used to have this tower computer like this big and like it'd be sitting there and um, yeah, yeah, I was sort of waking up, like you know, like six, six in the evening and start playing jam man go, go to sleep like seven the following morning, just like yeah, yeah do you know, addiction is often accompanied by a significant amount of stigma, both self-imposed and obviously from society as well.
Speaker 1:How do you deal with the stigma surrounding your addiction, especially as a as a public figure, like when that came out or anything? Was you worried about those stories?
Speaker 2:well, it's kind of. It's kind of the opposite way for for for rock stars, you know, it's kind of the other way around you celebrated almost yeah completely and and so I was like, um you know, for me it was kind of like I didn't. I never felt like there was any stigma, particularly and you know it's like it was.
Speaker 2:It was almost the opposite. I mean definitely when I mean all right now rewind, when I mean when I was a kid. Definitely some drugs are considered okay and some drugs are not considered okay, which is one of the things I find so weird, yeah you know it's like okay.
Speaker 1:So the the white drugs are good and the dark drugs are bad and whatever you know I said that even with alcohol, though, you know, normalize and not celebrate completely to be normal, but yeah and uh, and I remember going to glassinary one year and, uh, you know I was, I was sort of in a phase of um, I suppose, chipping.
Speaker 2:You know I wasn't doing too much gear and I and I, but I had took a bag with me and I went to watch the manic street preachers in the field and everyone around me is like smoking a joint or do it, propping their pills, all that kind of stuff, and I and I I was obsessed with the first, the first three manic street preachers albums and I was there and I was screaming and having a good time and then, like I remember, I sat down with my girlfriend and I got the foil out and I lit it up and I started to smoke it. And it's like people looking at me like you know, people like oh, you can't do that here, and stuff like that. I'm like this is Glastonbury and how come those drugs are okay and how come?
Speaker 1:those drugs are okay and this drug isn't. Do you know?
Speaker 2:what I mean, that kind of tribalism that humans have I just find so bizarre, but anyway. So, yeah, no, I think, I think. But yes, that's like the other side of it and it's a very dangerous place. Because, you know, I was saying like, um, you can very easily, very easily, end up in that situation where everyone, everyone wants to do a line with you, everyone wants to, you know, do a shot with you, everyone wants to, you know, whatever with you when you're in a band and all that kind of stuff and that, and, and that's why I always say, like for myself, like, like like for john hassell and the libertines as well, like we, we kind of did it when we were kids and it was just like we weren't interested once we got there and uh, you know, obviously I've got so many friends in music that's not the case for whatsoever and it's like that they got really stuck in this thing where, like, I mean, imagine you're being.
Speaker 2:You're famous for being in a great songwriter, a great musician and a junkie well everyone wants to hang out and be your buddy and, like you know, fix with you and whatever, and like I don't know, like I yeah, I mean, I imagine that's gonna be a really tough place as well, because it is the stereotype.
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking there's a scene in school of rock where, like the drummer, the kid, he goes out and he's hanging with this band and they're obviously smoking air, weed and stuff and Jack Black's character comes on. It's like, oh, I'm just hanging out with some real rock stars. It's like no, these aren't real rock stars, these are poses, sort of.
Speaker 1:And the idea is that, like you said, the stereotype there, I suppose, in some ways, that rock stars are, all you know, junkies and heroin addicts and shit like that. Sure, yeah, yeah, um, in terms of just talking to a raise lights past, you know, raise lights music resonated with a generation and now you're back with new material how has your approach to writing and performing changed and how do you incorporate those life experiences that you've had into your music?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, I think writing songs for me is just um, it's just just just an avenue for me to talk about my experience of life and and everything. So, um, so life, my life, just always flows into the songs and and, and that's it. I, I never control it, it comes, it comes when it wants to. I mean, I work at it, but it's just the good stuff comes when it wants to and, um, you know, if you, you know that's uh, it's, it's just, it's just like a, it's just like a route, a pathway.
Speaker 1:You know that just comes through. I can't think of anything more difficult than writing a song yeah, me neither. No, honestly, honestly, if you ask me to write a song right now. I wouldn't be able to do it right.
Speaker 2:Do you know what I mean? Like you're like I'm gonna write a song about a sofa, I'll be like it'd be the worst song ever.
Speaker 1:So um, it's just that, when I think about it, like obviously you've had, you know, hits as well, you know, to get to that point of just I, just it blows my as someone who's like not in this field of music, absolutely. I think it's amazing when people play the guitar I'm like holy shit, you can play an instrument. I got some basic quill out.
Speaker 2:But it's like the way I always think of it, like you go up to a stranger and start a conversation with them, you know you've got to find your route through it. Pretty quickly. You've got to work out where you both land in the same place and the empathy and everything.
Speaker 2:And I always think with songs, sometimes the first line just comes to me, and when it does, the rest of the song comes, because it's just like I'm having a conversation from then on. But finding that first line, or that first line finding me, has to happen, and that happens never.
Speaker 1:I like that, though. This is a good way to look at it, I know you're completely right, because some strange I will absolutely gel with.
Speaker 2:And then others.
Speaker 1:It's just like this and that, Then this, this scenario, then like trying to follow you used to say it earlier like I've had an excuse to leave, sort of thing, but yeah, do you know it's a different one. Um, thinking about like advice and looking back at your journey, what advice would you give to someone who is currently struggling with addiction of any kind and is considering taking their first steps towards recovery?
Speaker 2:oh, it's so hard, that's so hard to answer because you know, I don't, I uh, you know I don't want to come across as preaching no, I get that, you know, I mean, and I like, I like what you said about the nucleus earlier.
Speaker 1:Do you know about, like in terms of you know people where you're using with you kind of see, in recovery as well, people have, like you were saying, do you know you back then, well, it's really hard.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know the thing is like then. Well, it's really hard. I mean, you know, the thing is like you, you can. Only I don't know, you know like. I mean this is not just for addicts, but I think everyone you should if, if you told the truth every moment of the day for 24 hours would your world still be the same.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or would it like fall apart yeah.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Fall apart, right, but that's a test, yeah, yeah, right, and if you're in a good place, you're going to pass that test. Yeah, right, you know to everyone, to your family, to the people you live with, to the people you don't care about, right, uh, and I think addiction is always going to be in those places where we are, you know, um, hiding from ourselves, hiding something you know and, uh, I don't know. You know, and that goes for every kind of addiction. I mean, you know, not just drugs, you know, whatever, I mean people. There are so many, so many kinds of things. You know that we could. Ultimately, what is addiction? Addiction is a strategy that we're following to try and make ourselves feel better in some way. Right, and that could be helping people. That could be, you know, crack cocaine. I mean, it could be, it could be anything, and it's a tragedy because it we do it, we're following a strategy that doesn't work and we're not seeing that.
Speaker 2:And if things are getting worse, but we're still pursuing the same strategy. And now people can be addicted to relationships, addicted to love people.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:Um and uh, you know so, but like anything, you can't. You can't give anyone any guidance, because only people themselves know where they're trying to go. Yeah yeah, Once you know where you're trying to go then, yeah, we can all see the steps to get there.
Speaker 1:Johnny, just on the topic of self-reflection, then one of the quotes that I found from you which really interested me and I just wanted to see if you'd want to talk about it is you said I think the second Raze Light album definitely opened the way for a flood of mediocrity in UK music, and that was something that you said with Vice magazine. Um, as you prepare for to release new music, how do you think of that with the second album?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think. I mean, I think what I was saying was that that you know, every time that there is a, a sort of movement, a sort of wave of bands or something like that, you always it always starts off with really good bands, and then all the record companies realize that, oh, it's cool to sign bands, and they start signing people that are not ready yet because they're too young or just never, never.
Speaker 1:Now we make, never gonna be good enough never gonna be whatever.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know uh and uh, and so every you know you start off with um, you know you start off with pulp blur and oasis and you end up with uh, you know, um, you don't want to say, I want to say, but like you know what I mean, yeah, I get, but that always happens and I think, and that in that indie landfill piece, uh, for vice, that's. That's what I was saying.
Speaker 2:Was saying that, um, I mean not single-handedly but yeah with, with, with every other band of that generation, from, you know, kings of leon, kaiser, chiefs, because those are just the ones that start with a k, but all the other ones as well. Yeah, you know it kind of like, you know, it creates a wave and then you get a sort of second wave of bands that are maybe diluting the thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. How do you handle the pressures and criticisms from the past while focusing on your current creative ambitions and the upcoming release of your album Planet? Nowhere on your current creative ambitions and the upcoming release of your album Planet.
Speaker 2:Nowhere. I mean like I say you're doing Every day, you're doing your thing you know, and that's the way.
Speaker 2:I've always done this, you know. I think for musicians it's really simple, but me it is. I write a song, I go around and I play it. Yeah, yeah, you know, and I meet people and yeah and that's it. You know, and sometimes I think, in any career you're gonna have, uh, you're gonna have moments where you, you are vastly overrated, vastly underrated, and everything in between you know, and there's just times where some something a hit and something will land and some and there's times when it doesn't you know what I mean, but I just think that kind of doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:So the actual people that are making the music, so much you know you just kind of like you know you're going to turn up and do your thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. Thank you, johnny. I'm consciously going to do the next sound check, so I just want to wrap this up with 10 quick fire questions, actually that I ask all my guests. Go for it. What's your favorite word? The?
Speaker 2:Least favorite word. No, what excites you? Sofas, and especially this stuff, what's this called Velour?
Speaker 1:Yeah, something like that. Fantastic. What doesn't excite you, velour? What sound or noise do you?
Speaker 2:love Music, sound or noise. Do you hate Taylor Swift?
Speaker 1:Favourite swear word P'tain what profession of the neuron would you like to attempt? If you want a musician, what would you be doing? Oh uh pass.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no idea that's fine.
Speaker 1:Um what's the worst job you can imagine doing?
Speaker 2:oh, I don't know. No, that's what?
Speaker 1:no, it's no offence to the people who do it no, it would be too offensive and lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?
Speaker 2:yes yes, johnny, thank you so much for coming on Believe in People and if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People, appreciate that. Thank you.
Speaker 1:And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People podcast, please check out the other episodes and hit that subscribe button. We're on Apple Music and Spotify, so please like and subscribe to be notified about our new episodes. You can also search for the Believe in People podcast on your favourite listening device and if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and
