Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#47 - Ambrose - Hepatitis C, Prison, Heroin, Stigma, Peer Support, Recovery Advocacy & Micro-Elimination
Matt sits down with Ambrose, a prominent figure in the recovery community, to explore his remarkable journey from severe substance misuse to recovery and advocacy. Ambrose shares his harrowing experience with various substances, including alcohol, cannabis, ecstasy, LSD, amphetamines, temazepam, diazepam, and heroin.
Ambrose recounts his early struggles with substance misuse as a coping mechanism for social awkwardness, leading to life behind bars and deep despair, including relationship breakdowns and suicidal thoughts. His story highlights the complexities of addiction, the significance of personal responsibility, and the journey toward regaining control over one's life.
A pivotal part of his recovery was the peer support he received, which played a crucial role in his return to health and stability. Ambrose’s current work with the Hepatitis C Trust underscores his dedication to helping others, as he educates and supports individuals in their recovery, with a goal of eliminating the virus by 2030.
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Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma.
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We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.
This is a Renew Original Recording. Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast, a 2024 Radio Academy Award nominated podcast to talk all things addiction, recovery and stigma. Today I'm with Ambrose, a prominent figure in Hull's recovery community. Ambrose shares his journey from severe substance misuse including alcohol, cannabis, ecstasy, lsd, amphetamines, temazepam, diazepam and heroin to a story of recovery and helping others. Ambrose also discusses his darkest moments, pivotal changes and current work with the Hepatitis C Trust. Ambrose, welcome to the Believe in People podcast. Thank you for coming on.
Speaker 1:I've asked you one because I think, especially in the local recovery community, you are very well known for many reasons and I think part of that reason is because of how how do I say it? How, how bad things were for you at one point, and a lot of people know how bad things were for you in terms of substance use but also the massive change that you've experienced and recovery. So I kind of want to tell that story and obviously talk about the work you're doing with the hep c trust as well. So there's a lot to try and get in today. So I guess really, where, where does it kind of start for you with substance misuse? What was the age you, you know when you first started taking substances, and I guess how did it begin?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, thanks for having us, matt, it's good to see you, uh. And I think first of all I should also say, like you know, I never set out on that, on that journey. You know it wasn't my plan for things to turn out that way. You know I come from quite a normal loving, caring family background. You know my sister's never turned out like I did. A lot of my friends never did so.
Speaker 2:You know, I have kind of tried to look and analyze it lots of times as to why I did. But I suppose kind of the journey started as a very young child really, just kind of I felt really awkward and different. You know that didn't come across to other people. Other people thought that you know, I was quite a popular kid but for me I didn't feel. You know it was a feelings thing, I think.
Speaker 2:And you know I found at an early age when I took alcohol for the first time, that that kind of took that away, you know. So I suppose I thought that substances were a solution to this feeling of. I think the best way to kind of pinpoint it is I felt like I was looking in at the world from the outside and when I took a substance that went away. You know so from you know my earliest kind of memory was, you know I remember drinking alcohol at Christmas and things like that away you know so from you know my earliest kind of memory was, you know, I remember drinking alcohol at christmas and things like that.
Speaker 2:You know that back in the you know the 80s and 90s like it was. You know christmas time or birthdays, like you know, as a young child maybe 13, 14 we'd have little. You know tops of alcohol and stuff like that. You know treat and stuff like that. But I realized from an early age that that kind of changed the way I felt and you know it took away that feeling of the way. I describe it today is a feeling of disease.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always liked the term disease. I think it's a really way of talking about substance misuse and addiction, because, you know, if we call addiction a disease, it is about being at a disease with yourself, isn't it? Yeah, it is about being at a disease with yourself, isn't it? I always love that term. What I'm interested by there is, you know, you see, you come from a normal family.
Speaker 1:I think a lot of the people that I've spoken to on this podcast and you know people with addiction problems in general it's often linked to a trauma and the escapism of trauma not necessarily the escapism of just feeling a little bit awkward and I guess I understand that when you talk about alcohol, because I think a lot of people do that you know the whole saying of a bit of Dutch courage, you know to go up and talk to someone or having a drink, so you don't feel awkward when you go and dance and stuff. So that makes sense to me. I guess where was the jump then going from using alcohol at 13, 14 to deciding to, you know, start using a drug like heroin?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it was again. It was a massive journey and not just a kind of, you know, decision that that's what I was going to do. You know, the progression for me was, you know, all the kids were doing certain things and I was quite, you know, an impressionable child. You just talked about trauma. I don't believe there was any trauma in my life, but how I felt about the feelings that were going on inside of me were quite traumatic. That was where my trauma come from.
Speaker 2:It was kind of that internal dialogue that was going on for me and you know, like I said earlier, substance is quieting that down. So, you know, hanging about with all the kids, looking up to all the kids, uh, I suppose one thing that I'd like to just say like, I remember watching green jill and and zamo going into the toilets and chasing the dragon, that kind of shows my age about, about all they have. But, uh, you know, in that moment of watching that I remember thinking I'm gonna do that something. I didn't really know what he was doing. Yeah, you know, in that moment of watching that I remember thinking I'm going to do that. I didn't really know what he was doing, I didn't know what chasing the dragon was.
Speaker 1:I certainly didn't know what heroin was. It sounds appealing though, doesn't it chasing the dragon? It does actually sound like whoa.
Speaker 2:In that moment I kind of thought I'm going to do that.
Speaker 2:And in that moment of thinking that I also had like a ton of guilt and shame come over me because it was just a thought. You know, it was only a thought, but it was, it was within me and I'd fought it and that, that, you know, when I speak about that trauma inside of me, that was the kind of things that were happening for me as a child. It was like it was naughty. You know, I knew I was going to do it and and you know, at some point in my life, you know that that that became true.
Speaker 2:But the progression of drugs, you know, know, was, you know, I smoked a bit of cannabis, I sniffed a bit of gas and then, you know, again, I'm 50 next week anyway, so late 80s, early 90s, the rave scene started and the kind of drugs I was taking then were like LSD, ecstasy, amphetamines and you know, if I'm totally honest, that was the only point in my life that I really enjoyed taking drugs. For about the first year of you know the rave scene, it was kind of it was fun, you know, but you know again hanging about with all the kids. There was people you know after these raves going off and you know having their own little things and I was thinking where they're going. And you know people were taking these tablets called Temergesics and you know that's like the Subuteca today. It's an opiate-based drug and initially people were crushing them up and snorting them. I had a go at that. Then I started to hear that people were injecting.
Speaker 2:The harm minimization movement started anyway and I remember being outside East Park and on this road and the harm min workers used to come and promote safe sex with packs of Jurex and things like that. All of a sudden they had packs of syringes and, you know, swabs and you know all stuff for safer injecting, because that was just kind of the way that the drugs you know the drug scene was going. So needles became readily available to us, the older kids, starting to inject these temergesics and that was my first experience of an opiate based drug, not heroin. I injected these, you know these tablets and yeah, you know I didn't actually take heroin until actual street heroin, you know, until later on in life. But you know injecting, you know. I think I was 15 years old when I first injected drugs, so you know it wasn't a route I planned to go down, it was just kind of a the natural progression kind of organically happened with the scene I was knocking about in.
Speaker 1:You said about enjoying at a time, enjoying the party, drugs and stuff. I guess when you did move to taking street heroin and start using opiates, was there the idea that that was going to kind of give you the same feelings or that you were going to enjoy it as much, or was you aware of the danger? I guess think we talk about heroin in the in the 80s and um, it was quite, almost popular in the sense of do you know, in fashion there was heroin chic. Do you know that? It was that look of of being a heroin addict. It was almost, it was almost glamourized. So was there anything like in terms of pop culture or the media that was making, I guess, using substances like street heroin actually appealing to you? Or I guess, how did it come about? How did you make the jump really, I guess?
Speaker 2:What was it that caused or influenced that? I mean, when I first started using street heroin, my life had totally fell to pieces. You know, street heroin, my life had totally felt, my life had totally fell to pieces, you know, and it was just kind of, uh, you know, a new kind of group of people I was hanging about with, you know, and that they're the drugs that were getting used in them groups and you know that, yeah, I took most drugs there is to use throughout life. So it was just, it was just the progression for me. You know, initially, like as I was growing up, there weren't a lot of was just the progression for me. You know, initially, like as I was growing up, there weren't a lot of street airing about people were taking, you know like pharmaceutical and a lot of chemists were getting baggled.
Speaker 2:You know that was the diamorphine was been injected then it was kind of all them kind of drugs, you know.
Speaker 2:So my initial, you know youth. You know I went to prison at an early age as well and that was, you know, quite a an eye-opener for me. But I think that kind of also saved my life in a fashion, because I think if I would have been out for the bit of time that I was in on my first sentence, that that it might have all happened a lot quicker. You know, because I'd injected drugs before I went to prison, just just not street heroin, you know. I'd injected ecstasy, I'd injected the temergesics, you know I'd injected different types of tablets, and when I went to prison, while I was in there, you know, the word was coming back from the streets that people were dying, and that was a real eye-opener for me, you know. And while I was in prison, another lad went over on B-Wing and you know it kind of made me think, like you know, and I did kind of change direction a little bit when I came out of prison.
Speaker 1:But you know, the changes that I made soon fell to one side, and that's when, you know, the string error kind of kicked in, you know let's break it down a little bit there, because you said about you know you started to get to a point where your life wasn't very good. You talk about going to prison. What was going on for you personally at that time, and can you tell me a little bit about the circumstances that led to you going to prison for the first time? Because did you go in quite young as well?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, how old was you? It was just after my 60, well, just before I was 17. Anyway, I got you know I'd been arrested a few times. I was a little shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know excuse me, you're welcome to swear, don't worry go, but you on.
Speaker 2:But you know, that's you know. Growing up it was just, you know, 14, 15, I did start to get maybe a bit younger anyway, started to get into trouble with the police and stuff.
Speaker 1:Was it just like normal teenage rebellion behaviour or was there anything specific?
Speaker 2:Yeah to begin with it was like fights between schools, just misbehaving in general. There was a little shoplifting thing when I was quite young where me and my friend stole some Corgi cars and the police took us home. But you know we didn't get charged that time. But you know I started to get into more trouble at age 14, 15 and you know I took a lot of drugs. I was involved in selling drugs from an early age as well. You know Got involved with some people who were a bit older and you know I was really impressionable. We was able to access, you know, drugs to sell. Do you know what I mean? And I'm six foot tall with ginger hair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're quite recognisable, I stuck out like a sore thumb, so I didn't make a good drug dealer.
Speaker 2:By the time I was 15, I did have some charges for possession intent and then, you know, by the time I was 16, I got charged again with some other things and these things all just amounted up and, you know, my mum always used to come to court. She'd give me a bail address. My family were always there for me. But it just got to the point where enough was enough and my mum said you know, we're not giving him a bail address. The judge said you know, remand him, command him into custody. And yeah, it was a bit of a reality.
Speaker 1:Did they think that it was going to help you by going to prison?
Speaker 2:I think so, yeah, I think so. I think some parents kind of love the children to death and some, you know, stay a distance. I don't know if there's any better way to kind of deal with people in addiction, whether there's any middle ground. But you know, yeah, that was the stance my parents kind of took, don't get me wrong. They were still there for me right throughout. But you know, from a distance, if you're going to kind of do that, sort of stuff.
Speaker 1:What was it like for them? Because you talked about your sister not having any problems around substance misuse and you know, I kind of get the idea of a bit of a yin and yang sort of thing. You know quite the opposite with you both. What was it like for your parents?
Speaker 1:When you're going through all this as a teenager because, like you've said, no trauma there it's I guess, as a parent myself, one of the things that I'm really conscious of is I've got to get this right. You know I've, and I'm very much I've got to get this right. But then sometimes it's like, well, how do I get this right? You know, because you talk to people yourself will come from good families and you're not the first person. I've working services, you know doing home visits, and you turn up and say, oh, this is a nice house, or the parents have a nice car, and you think, oh well, you know they've not come from like a, from poverty. I'd say, yeah, um, so what was it like for them really? Because it sounds like you've come from a decent family. It must have been really frustrating.
Speaker 2:It must have been really frustrating, you know. I mean they tried to instill them values and principles that they had within me, and I just kind of always did my own thing. If someone told me something, you know I would do the opposite. I was kind of a bit of a rebel. So you know, I have a good relationship with my dad. Now my mum's passed away, unfortunately. You know my dad, we have the ability to laugh about it. Today we can laugh and joke. You know he still brings little snippets. You remember when you did that and I thought come on dad. Yeah, come on dad.
Speaker 1:It was 40 years ago.
Speaker 2:Leave me alone 40 years ago now, but yeah, it must have been really tough for him. And to also like, when I look at it now and I say some people's parents love them to death and some people go from a distance, like I can't blame them for doing that.
Speaker 1:Do you know?
Speaker 2:what I mean and I totally respect what they did. Do you know what I mean? But yeah, prison was. I'd say it was a wake-up call at the time it was, but you know it wasn't the last time that I went to prison, of course, no, no.
Speaker 1:What was it like at such a young age, though, to be in prison? Like was you quite scared going in there? Because I guess one of the things that I found with teenage culture is, especially even 15 years ago, when I was a teenager, if you got an ASBO, if you got a tag or something like that, you took that like a badge of honour, and I guess, in some way, speaking to people being to prison at a young age, that was almost what it was like a bit of a badge of honour.
Speaker 1:It kind of to the peers was like, yeah, like I'm the real fucking deal. Do you know what? I mean? I'm just posing sort of thing. What was that like for you? Was there elements of pride about going in at that age, or was it scary?
Speaker 2:well, I'll just be honest. I was kind of shit scared. I wouldn't have told anybody that at the time. I had my chest out and I was walking tall and all that. But you know, growing up, age 15, 16, I thought I was some sort of gangster.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think a lot of teenagers do learn that. That's quite common.
Speaker 2:I had this like view of myself. That wasn't real. Do you know what I mean? And to be walking through the gates of H&P Mall, and you know, just before my 17th birthday, I think it was. It was like I was shitting myself. Do you know what I mean? And you there, but that still didn't take that fear away. You know, I remember getting on. You know, getting into my cell on the first night, my padmate's snoring and I'm on the bottom bunk sniveling. You know, thinking of this letter, that I was going to write to my mum to tell her it was her fault. I was in there. You know if she'd have given me a bail. You know I just couldn't take personal responsibility for my own actions. But yeah, that bad giovanna thing, I suppose coming out it was like, yeah, you, you know I've been mental really.
Speaker 1:It's what we do when we're younger and stuff like that. What was it like when you come back out of prison? You said coming out and you know a bit of a badger on it, you know, and obviously the behaviour's continued. You know, I've known you for a better part of you know seven to nine years now, somewhere in between there, and that's when things started to turn around for you. You said you're 50 now, so there's still there a lot of time of in and out of prison substance misuse. Let's talk about where it went from there as a young adult. Yeah, I could probably sit here all day. I do appreciate it's quite hard to get a lot of this into Going to prison and substance misuse.
Speaker 2:But you know, like I said, that thing of people dying while I was in on my first sentence kind of did wake me up. I didn't like jail, I was wet behind the ears, it wasn't for me, it didn't stop me going back. So, you know, when I came out I tried to implement some changes in my life. Do you know what I mean? And I thought I need to do what normal people do, I need to settle down, you know, and I thought if I don't use certain drugs I'll be okay. But I didn't know at that point. You know that any drugs, whatever substances I take, don't just impact my life, they impact everybody's around me. So I kind of made these changes, set up a little family, you know, got a job, I worked for myself, I got a beginning. There's more to the story than just kind of you know I was.
Speaker 2:I did have the ability to get and do things at times, but I just couldn't keep them because you know, I would always go back to addiction and that would take everything from me. So, you know, settled down for a bit, had some kids, and uh, you know, I think I just came around one day and I thought what you know, my mates were going out and enjoying themselves and I had kids and I was like, well, I want to do what they're doing, but you know I couldn't have both lives. You know, my mates were going out and enjoying themselves and I had kids and I was like, well, I want to do what they're doing, but you know I couldn't have both lives. But you know, I kind of tried and it never worked and you know, it kind of broke this relationship down. I was an awful person at the time and I don't kind of yeah, it happened, you know it happened and it kind of broke wanted to blame everybody else again. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:and come to personal responsibility that's a common trait within substance misuse. So I think you know, working in services, it's rare that you have someone come in the door and with with an addiction problem and say, yep, it's my fault. Do you know what I mean? It's everybody else's fault. It's our fault as a substance misuse service. It's probation, it's their family, it's whatever. It's never, never their fault. So I completely understand that like taking like a personal responsibility. Do you think that? Why do you think that comes from, though, with addiction? Because it is common with people with addiction problems, isn't it to blame other people?
Speaker 2:where do you think that comes from? I don't know. I think it's just one of the traits that comes out. It's just, it's. It's a self-centered illness did I mean yeah yeah, yeah, we just like we did blame everybody else everybody else, uh, and it's just that not wanting to look at yourself. You know there's nothing wrong with me, it's every, it's everybody else kind of thing yeah when really like what was got. The results that were happening in my life were all because you know the actions that I was taking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you're talking there about family breakdown and and naturally, I think, when you, when you go for that and you said you know feeling heartbroken what you're going to do is you're going to go back to using substances as the coping mechanism to that situation, aren't you?
Speaker 1:which again, is only going to exacerbate that situation yeah so tell me about, like I guess, uh, one of the things that we explore in this podcast is there's really low moments in addiction, the realities of what addiction is, because, as you've said, we can glamorise it, we can talk about going to prison and it being almost like a badge of honour and that cultural thing, but what about the real low moments you experienced during addiction?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, there's been many of them, you know, throughout highs and lows, but I suppose when the relationship breakdown went on, it was kind of, you know, a lot had created it. Again, it was me who was in the doldrums and, yeah, you know, there was a lot of times in my life when I wanted to end my life.
Speaker 2:You know, I never had the minerals to kind of put any action into doing it. Do you know what I mean? And yeah, some very low moments. I remember once when the relationship had broke down, I didn't leave the house for a week. I had enough drugs in the house to take and I just kind of shut the curtains. I remember my sister coming and I was sat in the living room I could hear her, but you know self-pity as well, like feeling sorry for myself, and you know they were there to help me and I just wouldn't answer the door. So, yeah, some pretty low moments Towards the end of addiction.
Speaker 2:You know I was living in the eighth floor of the High Rise flat on Great Fountain Street, opposite the hospital, and I remember just looking out the window on a daily basis, just wishing that I had the minerals to throw myself out. You know, because I didn't, I didn't want to be alive. Yeah, I didn't want to be alive and that's that's just where drugs had taken me to. You know it was glamorous when I was a kid and, and you know, at age 42, when addiction had finally finished with me and spat me out the other side, it was just, you know, I wanted to die yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So just going back to that then. Um, what's, what's the part where you're thinking this has got a grip on me now do you know what I mean? Like you, you've gone through substance misuse as a as a young kid, early teenager. When did you realize that you was addicted to the substances and that it was no longer a choice? Oh wow, at an early age. Was that really early? That happened?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean, before I was 17 I'd been to prison. I'd you know my parents had taken me to a meetings because they believed it was just it was just alcohol. They thought I was drunk all the time. You know, they thought I was drunk all the time, or hungover. And you know I'd also been in a mental health institution and that was to come off.
Speaker 2:Uh, diazepam yeah because I was just, I was like literally just eating them like sweets yeah you know, and there's some massive withdrawals from diazepam, I remember, uh, that you know they put me in delapol for two weeks to come off these, these diazepam, and I remember thinking, god, what the fucking hell have I done to myself? Yeah you know and yeah, I just having to you know, bear back. You know they was giving me some kind of medication while I was in there, but but at that early age I knew did something happen for you to go into the mental health institute, sort of thing, or well, you know I was working like I said.
Speaker 2:I was taking, you know I said, diazepam. It was temazepam, yeah, temazepam. Back then I was buying bottles of you know tamazepam linked to us, bottles of you know. At a very young age I could access as large amounts of drugs, do you know what I mean? And because I was selling them, I had access to them and I think my parents came in one night and found me I'd like a denim jacket on with top pockets, trouser pockets, and there was just these little gel fix there that you know the tamazepapan back then. They're like a little rugby ball and I think there was just hundreds of them, but I was asleep on the floor and they're just, they're all over me. You know, they're coming out my top pocket. They're coming out.
Speaker 1:There was in my you know because I just kind of, you know, knocked out unconscious with the amount that I'd taken, and what was the reason for taking them in such high volume like that, then, rather than because that's, I guess that's not even that's not even taking it for the high at that point, is it? That just sounds madness to me. Yeah, I mean, like I say from a very early age.
Speaker 2:The first year of taking drugs for me was fun. After that the impacts were. You know they were massive. Do you know what I mean? And that's just one example of it. You know, like I don't really know, there was, like there was the kind of the feeling that Tamazapan gave me this warmth but eventually, like they just knock it. You know the sleeping tablets are tranquilizers, so if you take enough of them, but I know today that I'm an addict and when I take a substance I can't stop. Do you know what I?
Speaker 1:mean, so if I've got, loads of it.
Speaker 2:I'm just going to carry on taking it, yeah.
Speaker 1:The identity of an addict as well, I found is interesting. Um, in general, because I think you know, for the most part we're so against being labeled as anything.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that addicts is one that people kind of take with not necessarily as a badge of honor, in the same way that was talking about, um, you know, going to prison and stuff like that. But do you know there's a difference between realizing you're addicted to something and realizing that you yourself are an addict. When did that guess come into your mind? That, okay, this isn't just a? Basically, because I think one one thing that I find interesting is it's not necessarily the substance, is it? It's, it's the feeling that you get from taking the substance. So, um, it's almost like. It's almost like a dopamine addiction. Anything that's making you feel good, you will take.
Speaker 1:And talking to people before, they said when there was younger it was video games, then it became a teenager and it was alcohol, and then when there was in the early 20s, it was sex and then, you know, then it became like heroin. It just became one thing after another and it wasn't't the thing that I was addicted to. It was the feeling of that dopamine, that release that what I am doing is making me feel good. Did you have the distinction between not necessarily being addicted to the substance but being an addict in general? Like, when did those sort of thoughts kind of cross your mind, or when did you come to that conclusion that you are an addict and that what you have is, as you said earlier, a disease.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean when I finally bumped into people who lived like me and walked in my shoes.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, so the peer support element of it? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was a bit, you know, I just thought I was a bad person, a junkie, I thought there was something wrong with me. You know, I've always known I was wired up a bit differently to to other people, did I mean? But when I found, when I finally met somebody else who was an addict, who told me what an addict was, you know?
Speaker 1:holy shit, that's me. I'm the same.
Speaker 2:I can relate to that yeah, and, and what this guy told me about it was like it's not about how much you take or what you take, it's the process, you know, it's the obsession, it's the compulsion. And, and I just instantly got that identification with this guy and you know, like I said earlier, my parents took me to an a meeting when I was 17, took me a couple of times, and what I used to do was it was near the whole new theater and I would. I would go up the steps, go behind the door, wait while they're driven off, and as soon as they'd gone, i'd'd run off. I never actually, you know, stayed for a meeting and I was really resistant most of my life to going to any kind of 12-step or 8 or anything.
Speaker 1:I think it's hard to. I've had this conversation plenty of times but I think it's really hard for young people to listen to the language that's used in those fellowship meetings. And it does happen. I know some people are, you know, exceptionally young early 20s that identify as addicts and go to fellowship meetings. But I think sometimes for younger people to go in that environment and be surrounded by do you know, men in the men and women in their 30s, 40s, 50s and so forth, and listen to the language and and them terms of even, just like even I just identifying as an addict at 17, I don't think you're wired that way.
Speaker 1:I think it is as a 17 year old. It's all this is a bad habit that I've got and like any bad habit, you know, I can learn to. As much as I learned the bad habit, I can learn to kick the bad habit. I think those environments don't always resonate with young people, so it's like it's less about the program. I guess it's more about the age that you was when you, when you first went to it, isn't it? That would have been the issue there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I wasn't ready for change. I wasn't receptive to change.
Speaker 1:I didn't think that I had to change. I thought everyone else had to change, or I?
Speaker 2:thought I just need to change the drugs that I'm taking.
Speaker 1:These drugs aren't working.
Speaker 2:I need to find the ones that do, because I truly believed that they were the solution to Ambrose, and they were In terms of medication.
Speaker 1:Now, just as a side note, I'm jumping ahead a little bit to where you are now in life. But if you go to your doctors and they offer you painkillers or whatever, how do you respond to that? How do you navigate that situation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I don't think they would.
Speaker 1:Have you not even tried?
Speaker 2:I had an operation not so long back and I spoke to the doctor before and then I said you know, I'm in recovery. I've been addicted to these drugs and these drugs, and he kind of took note. And then when I woke up, every one of the drugs that I didn't want to take were prescribed for me on this sheet if I wanted to take them. And at the moment of waking up the nurse was saying would you, you know? Do you need, would you like? And I was like, no, I can't. But in my mind I thought, oh, I could just, maybe just have.
Speaker 2:I'll just have one lot.
Speaker 1:Would that have triggered a relapse for?
Speaker 2:you do? You think I don't know, I don't think it would, and you know, because that's the difference.
Speaker 1:Now I'm talking about that mental, uh, the, the mentality of um, of the substance and and how you're feeling, uh, as a person, as you identify as an addict, you're in a much better place mentally now. Yeah, so would the substance necessarily trigger that reaction? That's the part that I'd find interesting, because mentally you're in a completely different place sometimes we need medicare like that's what. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:Sometimes you need the medication yeah, my legs are ulcerated through addiction. You know, I've got I had some really nasty kind of wounds on my legs through injecting drugs and you know, in recovery I needed to take some I can't think of the name of them now the codeine, yeah, I needed to take some codeine tablets and I needed to take some codeine tablets and you know, the doctor prescribed me and I was you know, it's a really painful thing, an ulcer and he gave me three days' worth of codeine. Now, I didn't feel anything from taking the codeine. It didn't get me high, I didn't get off on it or anything like that, yeah, you took it as prescribed.
Speaker 1:I took it as prescribed.
Speaker 2:But after the three days of taking this codeine I felt a bit fuzzy. You know, it was just something within me that knew. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:That this could be the start of something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I knew I was taking codeine. But what they say is like they reckon our bodies don't know the difference between prescribed and that's pretty true, do you know? What I mean, because whether someone was prescribed or it was street drugs like it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:You know, my body, our body wants as much of it as it can get. Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a little bit of a funny story about the kind of doctors prescribing things Like when I was young I actually went, you know, totally out of my face. You know I took loads of temazepam, I was totally out of my head and I was at my doctor's just down the road on Beverly Road there and while we're sat there he's looking at me, I'm looking, taking things off the desk, totally believing that he couldn't see what I was doing. I think I stole his pen. I stole one of them little calendar things and I took his back in the day.
Speaker 2:It was a prescription pad. They didn't print them out on a computer and I stole his prescription pad, then left the doctor's surgery, wrote myself out a prescription for something like 18-artrazepam, went to the chemist across the road and as I'm there waiting for this you know prescription that I'd wrote in total english and they're writing latin, I think it is uh with a pencil and there was a pen, the police came and kind of arrested me.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you know when I go in the doctors, like the screen starts. You know, the screen starts flashing up and and my recent doctor, dr cald, he's kind of just retired, but you know I remember going to him once in pain and I was telling him I need some pre-gabbling. He's like listen, you're not getting anything.
Speaker 1:Like that yeah, yeah. So yeah, because, going back to what you were saying about the prescribed medication, it must be hard as well looking at you know, when you're saying there about being in recovery and the difficulties of being prescribed medication that you don't want to take when you're an addict and you may encounter things where you actually need pain medication, all those things, the irony being that you'll go in and they don't give you one. They might not because they'll be reluctant to give you one, but you're in recovery and you say I'm an addict, I can't have that. They give you them, but you're in recovery and you say I'm an addict, I can't have that. They're like, oh, you'd be fucking fine, you can't take this, you'd be all right. What's that like? I guess?
Speaker 1:Um, because obviously the years of addiction you've had, what was that like experiencing, going into, going into a gp with genuine, genuine medical issues and I guess, because of that stigma of being an addict, them looking through you and thinking, yeah, you're not getting shit, because I know you, you're going to try your luck. Sometimes You're going to go try and get some prescribed pre-gablin and stuff like that when you don't need it. But what's it like when you actually do need it and you've got to be like look, I've got this issue. Did you encounter that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, it's frustrating, but there's always other drugs that aren't so addictive that they can do with alternatives there were many a time when I probably needed something that they couldn't give me.
Speaker 1:I find that sometimes the substances that aren't necessarily addictive, but you can find a way to misuse them, crush them up and snort them, whatever it is, there's always a way to get some sort of different reaction out of it, isn't there, I guess? Yeah, it's just quite a hard process to navigate. I think, in in um, in addiction, you know, being in being in recovery, you don't want to be prescribed the medication, and when you're an addict and you need the medication, they're reluctant to prescribe it to you. It's a bit of a bit of a weird dynamic, isn't it there? Yeah, it's not a thing. What's um? You know, how long was you, how long would you have said you was in addiction for?
Speaker 2:Is there a time frame? Well, I mean, I don't know the date, I would say that it began, but you know, from an early age I drank alcohol. But you know, I started smoking cannabis when I was about 13, 14. So nearly 30 years then, would you say. Yeah, I think maybe 28 years or something like that. So it was a long old ride.
Speaker 1:What was the lowest moment? What was the? I'll tell you what. I'll share a funny story. It's not funny as in ha-ha, but in terms of your transformation, one of the things that every time I see you I give you a big hug and I love seeing you because I remember delivering a prescription for yourself to the pharmacy in the town center and I went in and you was, you know, you were taught, lad ginger, as you said. You know you stick out, don't you? Some of the, some of the warts. And I saw you sat there but you just looked like a skeleton. Your face was gone. You looked so skinny. I remember kind of walking out of that farm that day, going, oh God, you don't. Look like he's got long left, you genuinely look like he was on death's door.
Speaker 1:And I think, talking about how well you're known on both sides of the spectrum, I think, with such a unique name like Ambrose, as I've said, someone mentions Ambrose. I know exactly who they're on about. Again, mention Mike. It could be any mike. Mention ambrose. I know exactly what they're talking about. But it's funny to hear people talk about you so positively when I remember when, not necessarily talking about you negatively, but it was oh, this has happened, oh, he's in this situation, and much like the time I had to deliver the prescription, you wasn't in it, you wasn't in a good way. What was that rock bottom moment where like six, you say, because it wasn't long after funny enough, it wasn't long after I took that prescription where you was looking at volunteering with me? I think there'd been a massive change not long after that time. What was the moment where the light bulb went on and was like right, I'm going to get my shit sorted now, after 30 years? Was there a really low moment? Was there something that clicked in your brain?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I found myself, you know, in the criminal justice system again really close to going back to prison. I think I'd been locked up all weekend, absolutely rattling me tits off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, took to court on a Monday and given the option because you know the crimes I was committing were so petty they weren't really. You know the crimes I was committing were so petted there was they weren't really. You know. I remember the judge shaking his head as if he felt, felt sorry for me, do you know what I mean? And they took me downstairs to probation. They said you're either gonna get like a 12 week you know short prison sentence or you can go back on a methadone script because I believe at the time I'd been kicked off. Methadone, you know from your appointments were that important to me if there was some drugs. I remember that happening and and you know I chose obviously I'm going to go to prison. I said I'll go back to renew and get the methadone script.
Speaker 2:And I remember getting released that day and having to walk from the town back to my flat and and you know the way I I don't even know I got home anyway and then when I got home I thought I need to score. You know I didn't have any money. Obviously I'd been out to kind of get money and been arrested for doing that. And I remember going out to try and it was just.
Speaker 2:I remember, getting back to my flat I'd managed to get something together and I just laid on the couch and you know, I truly believe to this day, because so much just came over me and I believe that I would, if I didn't get up and kind of move. You know, I would have died there and then I felt my life slipping away from me and and it wanted it want that the drugs were killing me. I hadn't had any drugs to kill me, do you know what I mean? But what was going on for me was like loneliness, isolation, fear. You know my counsellor spoke about it as like I was a mouse. You know, the only thing I did was go out of the hole to get the cheese and that was me going out to score drugs.
Speaker 2:My world had become so small. I didn't have any friends because I'd kind of burnt them all out and I didn't want to share my drugs with people. So if I had them, I'd be using them by myself. And yeah, I was just in my flat and I truly believe that I'd have died if I didn't get up and do something and that that was the moment when something kind of snapped inside for me. Yeah, it was a really lonely, lonely.
Speaker 2:That isolation, yeah, yeah, and, and you know, I think I've said it twice, but I'll say again I truly believe that if I'd have just laid on the couch, I would have quietly slipped away. And then, dad, you've just spoke about the Ambrose that you saw in the case. I wonder if that was the time.
Speaker 1:You know, when you said about coming out of prison, I wonder if that's why I had to deliver the prescription to you. I think it was one of the cases straight out of prison, straight to the pharmacy. Yeah, Because that was it. I remember in terms of the timeframe, it was around that time that you did you was just looking like you was on death, just really really gone in the face and things like that, and obviously it's not nice to see anyone in that situation and stuff. But I remember looking at you thinking I think we'd had quite a few service user deaths at that time, you know, here in the service, and I was like in my mind I was like that's going to be one of them, you know. So it's quite an awful thing to say and to see as well. But yeah, that isolation, I I guess and we always say this but the opposite of when you went in, when you are in addiction, you there is the isolation. So the opposite of addiction being recovery is that community and that connection yeah what did you do then?
Speaker 1:you, you're, you're at death's door, you're feeling low. What was your first move to? To getting your shit sorted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah well I'd been I mean, I always tried, you know, I was definitely a trier I would come and attend the groups here and I'd do a little bit of okay while I was in group sessions and then, obviously, the doors here would shut at five o'clock and I'd just be left, you know, just left by myself, and came across a couple of group facilitators who were in recovery. You know, I think they'd managed to reach me at that point as well. You know that I spoke earlier about being resistant to going to any kind of 12 step or putting any action in. Really, yeah, other than you know what the services were going to do for me.
Speaker 2:And there was a guy called Jason and he always used to say to me you know what, what you're going to do about that, ambrose, you know he didn't say you know, we're going to do this and we're going to do that. And he said you know what you can, what you're going to do that. I'm going to say you know what you can, what you're going to do about that. And he kept putting it back onto me. And, yeah, you know, and that is just just to touch on that.
Speaker 1:That is so important because I think there is this expectation of services and I think even sometimes the key workers, recovery coordinators, whatever you want to call them in order for them to feel like they're helping, they have to be doing things for people. And I say this to I you know, I manage a team of mentors and I'm like it's not what you do for them, it's what you help them do for themselves. And I think that's so important what you're saying there with jason, to say what are you going to do about it? Because I think in in some way, people come into methadone treatment thinking it's like we wave a wand and you're fixed and and it's not, it's, it's, it's a tool to be like.
Speaker 1:Look, this is just to help stop the withdrawal symptom that you're experiencing, so you can tackle them. Them other things, and not so we can tackle them for you, but so you can do them yourself. So talk, talk to me about that, then what? What was you going to do for yourself? What was the plan of action?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, well, I mean it's like I spoke earlier about not never having any personal responsibility. You, you know not wanting to accept personal responsibility, and I suppose that's that's what Jason was trying to kind of instill into me. Do you know what I mean? And we do stepping stones. We'd always set goals and it was just a menial task and I would say I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that. I wasn't really ever going to do it, you know, just white sort of thing, lip service.
Speaker 1:How are you feeling?
Speaker 2:I'm feeling okay, I'm feeling good, I'm going to do this at the weekend. I didn't have any intention of doing any at the weekend. I don't know what I mean.
Speaker 1:I always find that funny as well. You say then, obviously lying. I think substance misuse services and the people working there, they're the last people you need to lie to. They're the people that probably understand the situation you know. But it is that I guess, coming back to the stigma, you know, of what you've experienced in the past, it has to be the lip service. I am going to do this, I am going to do that. It's like when people say to us I ain't used this weekend, I ain't used in the past, I ain't used for two or three weeks. I tested positive for people you need to lie to, exactly yeah, but the last people that that people need to lie to around substance misuse is a substance misuse service, isn't it really? But yeah, that's interesting. So did you go to? Did you did you go to a meeting and what was that like in comparison to when you'd went as a younger person?
Speaker 2:eventually I did. Yeah, eventually I did. It took me about two weeks. Again I would sit in the group and say I'm going, I'm going and I was getting honest. I mean I said I never got there. I attempted to go, you know, and I did. There was about three attempts where I would walk to where I knew this meeting was and you know my ego, my pride, would have me over. You know, I'd get within 500 yards and and I'd turn another way. You know, I'd make an excuse in my mind why I couldn't go, why you know why I didn, why I didn't need to go, even though my life was falling to pieces. I was probably ten stone wet through at the time.
Speaker 1:Well you, saw me, you described it.
Speaker 2:I've got some new trainers today. I've had my hair cut. I'm all right, Jack.
Speaker 2:I've got it going on again and this final attempt I was walking down the boulevard, the meeting was down there at the time. Walking down the boulevard, the meeting was down there at the time. And you know, at these meetings they have people stood outside to greet people. And the guy on this evening who was greeting people and knew me and I was on the opposite side of the road, I still had no, I'd changed my mind, I wasn't going in. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1:I called you my intention.
Speaker 2:It was like ambrose, what are you doing? And it got me over, and they got me through the door and, yeah, it was the best. It was the best thing I ever did. I mean, it was yeah.
Speaker 1:I love how welcoming those environments can be for people like yourself. You know, when you are so reluctant to go and, going through the door and being met with a hug and happy. You're here and here's a cup of tea and biscuits, and it's like oh God. And I think again at that age. Now you're in your early 40s, here, the language makes sense to you and you can relate to the people who are in that group now as well, and you can't when you can't when you're 17 can you can't relate.
Speaker 1:So, at 17, when you've been using substances for two, three years or whatever it is, you can't relate to people who've got, you know, 20, 30 years of addiction under the belt and I've, you know, really felt those lows and those hardships. It's just not something that relates to to younger people, but to go in at that age, at 42, you know, or whatever it was to, you can relate to people. Okay, and that's the massive thing about the peer support element of it is that connection and and, as you said, you know, it's like, ah, same way, when you said about identifying as an addict, you listen to someone who said, oh yeah, that's me, same way recovering. You hear someone tell their story or give a share and you go fuck, that's me. And I think it's inspiring. Did you find it inspiring being around people with X amount of years under the belt of recovery? Was that something that you was considering when you was in there?
Speaker 2:Like, oh, these guys have done it. I mean initially, my biggest enemy is me.
Speaker 2:My biggest enemy is my thought process. My mind is me. You know, my biggest enemy is my thought process, my mind, the kind of internal dialogue that goes on. I remember being in the first meeting and looking around the room and kind of judging people about what they had. You know, if someone had some really smart trainers on and a nice top, or if they drove away in a car, I'd be like he must be selling drugs, he must be getting the drugs off him, like she can't live, she can't live, you know.
Speaker 2:So I'm just looking around this room absolutely judging the life out of everybody in the room, but again, I'm stick. You know, I'm stick thin, with barely any teeth, like, yeah, but I've got kind of, uh, an ego that's, that's over inflated, you know, because I ain't used, I ain't used drugs for a few days, I've got it good. So that was, that was how I was initially. There was definitely a process of changing. When I look back at how I was, how I felt and thought about other people when I first went, it's quite funny really.
Speaker 1:Especially now because I think you've become quite a beacon in the recovery community. As I was saying, everyone recognises you and people mention your name. People know you and I know in the past I don't know if you still do, but you've chaired meetings and things like that. You know, had those responsibilities in there. So quite a way to go from where you was to what you're doing now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean initially, you know I got help off others and what others said to me was like you know, I thanked them and they're like listen, you only need to do one thing for me and that's keep giving it away to other people, and that is what I've tried to do Like my life today.
Speaker 2:You know, I've got a beautiful life. It ain't all based around recovery. I've got lots of other things going on but it kind of, you know, recovery is at the centre of it all. Everything else that I've got know.
Speaker 1:So that was like, oh, because I'm volunteering here or because I'm working here, it means I'm doing well, it means I'm in recovery and and, um, you know we see that a lot. And going back to to yourself, you started volunteering in service, you did an apprenticeship and then you was a you know one of the recovery coordinators here as well, which I think that was a massive know one of the recovery coordinators here as well, which I think that was a massive thing for so many people because of how recognized you are to be that visible recovery for people. And you did that in quite a short space of time, to be fair, and I think it's so important in that. That experience isn't from a degree, from reading textbooks. It was how you was able to relate to people and one of the biggest strengths that you brought to the team when you was here was the work that you was doing in the Hep C Trust and around Hep C, testing primarily to begin with. Where does the passion for Hep C and the work you're doing there come from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean of uh kind of addiction and attempts to kind of stop and things like that. I ended up on a drr in 2007. That was like a drug rehabilitation requirement, a court order, yeah. And while we was on that, we got tested for for blood-borne viruses. And you know, a week later the lady called me in the room and I knew something was wrong by the look on her face, you know. She kind of said the good news is you don't have hiv, you don't have hepatitis b, but I need to inform you you've contracted hepatitis c. And uh, you know, I didn't know anything about blood-borne viruses. You know, while I was using drugs, I didn't know, you know, I wasn't really aware of the risks that that I was taking. So to be diagnosed with that for the first time, it was kind of a bit of a shock where did that come from?
Speaker 1:was that from like sharing equipment, then? Or yeah, I mean I couldn't pinpoint it but yeah the 70 to 90 percent.
Speaker 2:I mean I work in the field of everything so you know, kind of. I've got little bits of information about that. So 79, 70 to 90 percent of all new cases are caught through people who inject drugs. You know, but generally people will use a clean needle, you know. But what kind of blindsides people is. They'll share a spoon, they'll share a cup of water they'll use a filter that somebody else has used.
Speaker 2:So you know they're generally the. You know the, the, the route, the routes of infection. So I don't know how, exactly how I caught it, but I but I know that I did and I was diagnosed at that point and you know I felt dirty and disgusted, I didn't feel like I could talk about it like I am today do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:but and that's because the stigma of it and that lack of understanding of what it is, I guess yeah yeah, and I lived with it for a lot of years and then eventually treated it in, you know, 2017, just before I started my apprenticeship here. So that passion was was kind of born from that, because I'd had some treatment years ago which was called interferon.
Speaker 2:That was, you know, when I was initially diagnosed I had one injection of it and the side effects were horrific and you know it kind of knocked me sideways. You know the court order that I was on got revoked because my behaviors came back and you know I got I think I got sent to prison again for a few weeks and I never cleared it and I made a decision at that point in my life that I was just going to live with hepatitis C.
Speaker 1:And was that because the treatment at that time was, as you said, so invasive? Yeah, I found it interesting it was called interferon. Yeah, because it does sound like it really interferes with your system and how you feel. Yeah, definitely interfer, definitely interfered.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was kind of it's based on like chemotherapy similar drugs to you know what you use for chemotherapy, things like that so you know the side effects were horrific for me and I just ran for deals and I made a decision, because I didn't have any information, that I was just going to live with it because you know, if somebody has it it's not apparent. You know it didn't make me feel ill, it didn't show outwardly. The nickname for it is the silent killer.
Speaker 1:And I think that's the interesting thing when you talk about, I guess, being in the madness of addiction, trying to encourage people to get Hep C tested, to have Hep C treatment because, as you said, it's not affecting them at that point. And I guess, in that today, now, now, now mentality, why are you going to be bothered about something that's not going to affect your life for another 20, 30 years? That's part of the problem, isn't it? I guess? When did you decide to actually take the hep c treatment seriously?
Speaker 2:and, and you know, yeah, so it was just after just after I'd got clean. Yeah, you know I'd got clean, I'd stopped using drugs, but I still knew that I had Hep C and I was sitting in group sessions, I was around other people in recovery and I was just hearing these stories about it just being a simple course of tablets and there was no side effects. But my belief system was that previously it was horrific. When I took it, I relapsed and loads of things went wrong, so I'm in recovery.
Speaker 2:I had a bit of fear around taking this new treatment because I thought things are going good. What if they start to, you know, take a downturn. But you know, I came across enough people and the evidence eventually was like, you know, if one person was saying it was great, you know I might not be able to believe them, but 10 people saying it's great, you know I went for it and it's the best thing. Well, I keep saying it's the best thing thing. Well, I keep saying it's the best thing. It's another one of the great things that happened in my life. Because, you know, coming off methadone, initially a layer of fog lifts, but when you get treated for hep c, I said earlier, there's no. You know, you don't really know you've got it, but the symptoms like fatigue, you know, inability to put weight on, you know, loss of appetite, there's all diff, there is different. So I felt so much healthier and so much better after treating the hepatitis c is different so I felt so much healthier and so much better after treating the hepatitis c and uh.
Speaker 2:As a result of that, you know, I had that passion to kind of pass that message on to others that it's not the old treatment, you know, it's just a simple course of tablets now and there really isn't you know, in my experience any side effects. There's still people who walk about telling more stories.
Speaker 1:Yeah about the new treatment.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's this's this, it's that, it's the other, but they clearly aren't taking it. You know, because my experience of supporting people and that's lots of people you know the main thing that people say is you know, I had a bit of an headache the first week and you know they just need to drink some extra water because the liver's doing some extra work to kind of kick the virus out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the virus out. Yeah, so that's. I guess that's the interesting thing, isn't it? With it, it's almost like just taking a course of antibiotics now, isn't it? How long does the treatment last then? Is it is it? Is it a 30 days? Is it a?
Speaker 2:month. So there's there's. There's two different lengths of treatment, so you can have one for eight weeks or one for 12 weeks it's all dependent on that kind of what genotype the individual has and they'll find that at the point of testing anyway, won't they?
Speaker 2:yeah. So I mean, at the point of testing it just identifies that somebody's got it. You know the nurses at the uh, the specialist nurses who do further tests and that tell them what kind of genotype they've got. And years ago there used to be worse genotypes to treat. You know, there were some that they said were more difficult to get rid of. But in this day and age the genotype is just to kind of determine which form of medication you need, because there's different ones.
Speaker 1:Now there's a few different types of tablets and you work for the hep c trust now yeah, yeah so how long have you been there?
Speaker 2:now it's been a few years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's five, it's four and a half, four and a half years, five years next april I remember you getting the job because obviously you started me as a volunteer, got the the apprenticeship, did the recovery coordinator job and we'd gone to the recovery games. I think it was in 2019.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's brilliant and I remember Hep C, the Hep C trust was there and you were spending a lot of time where I was like they're poaching him for a job. At one point I think he actually came over and said to me, oh, they've run about a job. I was like, oh, nice one. I bought a job. I was like oh, nice one. And when you got the job I remember you coming to me going, oh man, and you felt bad for telling me and I was like, why do you feel bad for telling me? I was like I volunteered here and you opened it.
Speaker 1:It's like, I admit, but seeing how passionate I think you was around the hep C treatment and and the work you was doing here with hep C testing and obviously as your supervisor at the time, I remember observing you doing the, the hep C testing and what I thought was interesting is that you didn't tell the girl you was in with that you had hep c treatment. And then when she left, I asked you. I said how come you didn't like talk about your own experience and stuff like that? And you said something like I kind of share on a need-to-know basis, like I only share if I think it'll actually be beneficial and I I always use that as an example because I think with people that come through into volunteering, that are in recovery, they think that helping people is just talking about themselves and their own story. And I was like it's not the case, it's, and I'll share your story. I was like it's on a need to know basis.
Speaker 1:Would that have helped that girl at that time who was getting the hep c testing? No, I don't think it would have. And that said she wasn't panicking about it, she wasn't worried about it or anything. Uh, she just going through the process of it. I reckon if she was panicking or she was scared or something like you might have said to her and shared your story, but I guess it didn't need it then. And it is about sharing our experiences on that need to know basis, because sometimes people just come in and just talk about themselves and that doesn't help anyone. Does it really from that, from a peer support perspective?
Speaker 2:just it's their appointment, not yours yeah, it's what I try and say to people.
Speaker 1:But yeah, seeing the passion you have for it, and is it the same job you've done or have you moved up?
Speaker 2:it's the same job but my kind of role has progressed a bit since I started there. So I was just a prison educator when I first started. I was given 10 prisons in the Yorkshire area. It was quite a massive educator. When I first started, I was given 10 prisons in the Yorkshire area.
Speaker 2:It was quite a massive ask yeah, I was going to say when I look back now I mean I was just invincible, I could do anything. Yeah, I'll take the world on, but just given this list of 10 prisons, I had to contact the prisons, gain access and for someone who'd been in quite a few of them prisons, that was quite a difficult ask to begin with yeah, of course. Yes, covid, had just happened as well.
Speaker 1:That was the interesting thing. So just before you went, I remember you saying, oh, it's good because I get to work from home. And I was like work from home. I said that's amazing, lucky bastard. And then we all went into COVID about a few months later and we was all working from home. I remember thinking this going ambrose will be all right. This is exactly what he's been doing for the last like six months or so. At that point I think yeah. So for someone that doesn't know anything about hep c and hep c treatment, you are, in this instance, the expert. Talk me through it, because you said for a lot of people it's the silent killer. There's people that may have been in the way you was before quite ambivalent to taking it because of how invasive it used to be, scared it might interfere with your recovery. A lot of people could listen to this relating to exactly what you're saying.
Speaker 2:So so talk me through it then yeah, so the so the new, I mean, let's touch just quickly on the old treatment again. It was, it was an injection once a week and it was tablets and the injection side of it was what I believe was quite invasive and the side effects of that were horrific and there was just so much stigma built up around treatment and what went on with that treatment there was only a 50% chance that you would clear hepatitis C. And today the new treatment is just a simple course of tablets. They're called direct-acting antivirals so they directly attack the virus. So within that, the kind of non-invasive, so it takes them side effects away. So there's limited to no side effects.
Speaker 2:You know some people, like I said earlier, report a headache. You know some people have other side, you know, but there's there's no like the horrific stories of interfere on a gun. You know it is just a simple course of tablets and the most difficult thing for me to do is remember to take it every day you know that that's, that's how we that you know that's how straightforward it was.
Speaker 2:Uh, you know we support people through through that process as well. So the kind of that, that lived experience of being able to say to someone you know, I've taken it. You know you might have heard your pal say that it's horrific and that this happens and that happens, but my experience was that you know, I felt better as a result of taking it. You know there's different durations, that people, you know some people have it for eight weeks, some people have it for 12 weeks, and that's just kind of down to the specific genotype that someone might have.
Speaker 1:What is just kind of down to the, the specific genotype that someone might have. What is the aim then for the hep c trust, because I remember the campaign a couple years ago was find the missing millions? Uh, they talk about micro elimination. What is the mission of what you guys are doing then?
Speaker 2:yeah, so the overall aim it was is to eliminate hepatitis c by by 2030. When I first heard about that, I I thought that's impossible, that's never going to happen.
Speaker 2:And then the next thing I heard was that Public Health England had gone one step better and said they're going to do it by 2025. And I remember thinking, well, that's definitely not going to happen. I know how many people I know who's got it. But like the work that we've done, you know we have kind of, you know we've smashed the figures that are in this country and we've done some brilliant work. You know, within the prisons that we work in, we've kind of micro-eliminated a lot of those, certainly in the South and West Yorkshire area. And when I say micro-eliminate, that means that we've tested over 95% of the population and then got 90% of those who were positive on treatment in a kind of timely manner. And that's massive really, because when we first went into the prisons to start rolling these programs out, I think one prison was at 3%. You know they were offering 3%, you know, and that won't be up. You know that won't be uptake. So it was really dire and really poor. But prisons are busy places. So to add this extra kind of noggin of work on was a bit of a you know, shock for him.
Speaker 2:But what we do is we kind of support, you know we support that process and we kind of help as much as we can. So you know, within the prisons we run awareness groups, we support any individuals who you know who've contracted it. We do clinics, we do peer training. So you know, I said earlier, I've had 10 prisons initially. Now it's impossible for me to be in 10 prisons at once. So what we do peer training. So you know, I said earlier, I've had 10 prisons initially. Now it's impossible for me to be in 10 prisons at once. So what we do is we look for lived experience within the prison and we'll kind of train the lads up to deliver the workshops that we would have done if out, if I was there. So we help them build a life story, get some key messages in there and, yeah, it's a, it's been a good program, because there's quite a lot of volunteers, even in the community.
Speaker 1:Do you know here, do you know, in this service particularly, you know we've got sam and and paul, uh, and I believe it is like I've not seen much of you. Do you know what I mean? So it really is like not reliant on volunteers, but it's so important for volunteers to be in those roles, I'm guessing as well, isn't it? Yeah to be doing that work you've seen in the prisons and in the community as well.
Speaker 2:I mean I was a volunteer to begin with. Yeah, yeah, I remember. I mean I did the Hep C prior to getting the role here. I did the Hep C training for three days and I think two days later I was offered the role of, I did a health and social care apprenticeship and then to that. I have to leave here to go back to the episode you said earlier. You know I was like I don't, but I did feel that. You know I'm quite a loyal guy, I know that's what I mean.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I appreciate that, but no, I think in terms of you have to. You have to work, I think, where your passions are as well, and I think that when we talk about the importance of lived experience in these, you know recovery, recoverybased roles and stuff. I think it's so important to get you where you are. Do you know much about how it's funded, then? Because, from my understanding, looking at hep C treatment in America, it's on the individual and it's very expensive. How is it funded here in the UK for so many people?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's a partnership between the NHS, public Health England, the pharmaceutical companies and the Hep C Trust, so that was kind of formed maybe five or six years ago. It made the drugs more readily available, you know, cheaper to access, and yeah, there was kind of, you know, when them dates were kind of set, when they said 2030, 2025, a lot of money was pumped into it. We're quite fortunate in this country, you know, that we've been able to do the bits of work we can, but it's really important that we're doing them bits of work as well because, you know, we said earlier, it's the silent killer, it's progressive and left untreated. People do pass away. You know one of my colleagues, neil I'll say his name because you know he- left a video because it was his legacy.
Speaker 2:You know, hepatitis c took his life. He worked with us for kind of, we worked together for five years. I knew him for seven years and is he wasn't, uh, diagnosed in time, you know. So he had some damage to his liver and that progressed over the years and tended to liver cancer, liver failure, and he passed away and we buried him a couple of a couple of months ago now and uh, he left. He left a legacy of a video. You know. Tell him, you know, because he he was passionate, that other people should, you know, be able to access treatment and uh, yeah, people, people pass away if it's not.
Speaker 2:You know, it's really important that that people get treated. And you know, when we got the prison work, you know, and they were testing 3% of the people going through the door, there was so many opportunities getting missed. And now to be at the point where we're testing over 95% of people in some prisons it's not happening at all, but we're working, you know, we're working towards that. Yeah, group work, you know, I had a guy in one of my prisons the other month. He knew that he'd had hepatitis c for years but but he was, you know, resistant to being treated. I shared my life story. He hung about after the group. He said, oh thanks, mate, that was really helpful and, by the way, could you help me access treatment? You know?
Speaker 1:so after, after, I think, a lot of years of him living with it, you know, through hearing my story, he decided that he was going to get treated and that that is the power, isn't it, of sharing our stories and things like that. It's part of the reason why we do this podcast, you know. I mean, it's the way listening to someone's story can help people is just such a massive thing, and it just goes to show in the way that you're doing as well. Yeah, thank you, ambrose. Thank you so much for coming on the believing people podcast just before we before we finish, though, I have 10 questions, 10 quickfire questions that I like to ask all my guests and completely unrelated to what we've spoken about so far. See how quick you can answer them, because they are a bit tricky. What's your favourite word? My favourite word? See what I mean. It's such a care ball, isn't it? When we talk about?
Speaker 2:everything we've talked about.
Speaker 1:I don't even know, no care about it when we talk to what everyone talks about, I don't, I don't, I don't even know. No, I don't even know. I don't think. I think of the first word that pops and said that you're like, I don't know that I have one. You don't know if you have. So do you know if you have a least favorite word?
Speaker 2:a least favorite word. Wow, you should have given these questions it's like a, like an interview. Listen I could have thought about them. Uh, no, I don't, I don't, I honestly don't know.
Speaker 1:You don't, do you? Yeah, for sure, tell me something that excites you, something that excites me.
Speaker 2:I suppose seeing change in other people is really exciting for me. When I see somebody new come about like me who was dishevelled, that really excites me because I know the possibilities that are there for them.
Speaker 1:Thank you, tell me something that doesn't excite you.
Speaker 2:Something that doesn't excite me Football.
Speaker 1:I can't stand it. I can't stand football Terrible. What sound or noise do you love?
Speaker 2:What sound Running water? I love running water.
Speaker 1:What sound or noise do you hate?
Speaker 2:Busy traffic, I suppose. What's your favourite swear word? My favourite swear word Probably cunt.
Speaker 1:Nice what profession over the new year would you like to attempt?
Speaker 2:Dream job A dream job, do you know, maybe self-employed again? Odd job, man An odd job man.
Speaker 1:I'd love that realistic. I like it. Odd bloke does odd jobs Odd bloke does odd jobs. Odd bloke does jobs. What profession would you not like to do? Oh god, oh yeah. So Oddbloke does odd jobs. Oddbloke does jobs. What?
Speaker 2:profession would you not like to do? Oh God, I would like to be a school teacher.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't wait to hear that too. And lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates? Now then, son, there you go. Brilliant Ambrose, thank you so much for coming on the Believe in People podcast. You have so much for coming on the believing people podcast. You have been wonderful. Thank you, matt, and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, please check out the other episodes and hit that subscribe button. We're on apple music and spotify, so please like and subscribe to be notified about our new episodes. You can also search for the believing people podcast on your favorite listening device and, if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.
