Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#44 - Michelle Heaton: Addiction, Balance, Celebrity Mastermind, Body Shaming, Threat Of Relapse, Sobriety Milestones & Reality Show Realities
Emmy & BRIT award-winning singer Michelle Heaton returns to the Believe in People Podcast.
With three years of sobriety achieved, Michelle shares her incredible journey from addiction to empowerment, revealing the raw truths and profound insights gained by delicately balancing family life, self-care, and personal growth.
Michelle provides an invaluable look into the complexities of sponsoring others through their sobriety, and how she manages the looming threat of relapse and the joy of reaching sobriety milestones.
As Michelle peels back the curtain on the world of reality TV, she recounts the missed opportunities that her past struggles snatched away and offers a behind-the-scenes glimpse of her recent participation in shows like Celebrity SAS and Dancing On Ice.
Finally, Michelle explores the pressures of fame, body image, and self-esteem, discussing the relentless pressures created by the media and society, and how Michelle navigates the trials of authenticity in her public and private life.
Click here to text our host, Matt, directly!
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma.
For our full back catalogue you can visit our website ⬇️
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If you or someone you know is struggling then this series can help.
You can see selected clips from the series on social media: @CGLHull ⬇️
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We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.
This is a Renew Original Recorder. Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or, as I like to say, your facilitator. Today, emmy and Brit award-winning singer Michelle Heaton returns to the Believe in People podcast. Discover how Michelle's courage and resilience have touched millions, leading to saving lives and the establishment of a space and hull for her extraordinary generosity. From navigating reality TV challenges to overcoming body shaming, michelle's story illuminates the path to facing adversity head-on. Learn Michelle's powerful coping mechanisms for handling social media negativity and maintaining sobriety through diet and exercise. We gain insights into her advice for those grappling with addiction and body image issues and be inspired by her message of self-acceptance and balance. Michelle, welcome back to the Believe in People podcast. It has been 18 months since we last spoke to you about your journey through addiction and sobriety, and here we are today, another 18 months on and you're nearly three years sober now.
Speaker 2:I can't believe it was 18 months ago. It's gone really quick. I can't believe that it was right in the middle of my recovery as well, and we're here, like almost 18 months later. Um, it's crazy because I remember the interview and um, and obviously I've I've watched it back and stuff um, and whilst everything I said at that point was absolutely true, like, and my belief system and way that I work, recovery hasn't changed, but I've evolved, yeah, even more, and grown in recovery and it's amazing how does that look then?
Speaker 1:How have you grown? How have you evolved?
Speaker 2:I think that I'm better at like just letting things go, but actually I'm now understanding that I'm one of the lucky ones so far and that doesn't really work like that ordinarily. Um, relapse is usually something that unfortunately happens to most people through their recovery and I feel extremely privileged that I haven't been one of those people yet. But how close I could be at every given moment, because those relapses that I've lived through with other people have been on usually minor events that have sparked these relapses, and how fundamentally, if I don't keep on top of my recovery or continue to talk or things like this, and stay connected with people like me, I could go down that road just as quickly as they have.
Speaker 1:And I'm not immune to that. I think that's the weird thing from the outside perspective. Sometimes, once someone has sobriety or has recovery, you think, oh, that's them sorted now and you don't necessarily think of the the day-to-day struggle that that person is probably going through to maybe maintain that sobriety. And some people struggle more than others. Do you? Are you one of these people that really count the days of your sobriety? Do you have, like I? Basically I spoke to a friend not so long ago and I made a comment and he opened an app and he was able to tell me the exact minute hour.
Speaker 2:Yes, I've got the same app, probably it's out there, it's um, yeah, the tools kit yeah that we all have because it's got, um, the, you know, our sobriety date.
Speaker 2:I got it out last night actually because I was with Liberty X, all the Liberty X last night. It was the first time in 8 years and Jessica hasn't been drinking and Kevin's not been drinking and they've got their own app. They're not in, you know, in addiction or anything, but they've got 101 days, 102, and they're really chuffed for themselves and I got mine out in like 1085 days yesterday or something like that. But that was the first time I had looked at the days for quite a while.
Speaker 1:So you're not looking at it regularly and things like that, I think I used to be definitely easily the first year, because we celebrate those milestones in early recovery because it's the toughest time.
Speaker 2:I'm more prone to relapse in early recovery, so we have to celebrate it. It's an achievement because I couldn't get a day or an hour you know, if I was awake I was drinking, fundamentally. So to then have gone one day you know that's where you get your chips, isn't it? You know you get your one day, you get your one week, then it's a month and then it's like 90 days and then now, fingers crossed, hopefully, it will be now yearly, so I don't get a six-month chip anymore. I'm hoping, you know, please, god, I make it to three years and I get my three-month chip. So we celebrate it more. And now I understand why Because I'm not in that early recovery bubble and that you have to remove yourself from the bubble because you have to live life on life's terms.
Speaker 2:You know you have to. You have to be able to live in life and learn how to live life, because you can't control it, and that's fundamentally why I think addictions happen in the first place. We cannot deal with outside influences and things that are happening around us and to us, whether it's early trauma or you know a situation or a disaster and we want an escape. Not everybody turns into addictive behavior without escape, but I did and you know, and that's what I found it was an ease and comfort. So it's learning how to deal with everyday situations and everyday life that I cannot control without reaching for that ease and comfort of alcohol have you challenged that?
Speaker 1:um, do you know that mindset into something else? Would you say then, do you know, I think, talking about the escapism, um, do you know? Sometimes the case with people with addiction, once they give up the alcohol or the drugs, they focus that, that, all that attention and all that. You know time that they invested into substances, into something else? What would that be for you?
Speaker 2:early recovery I was dabbling in a bit of knitting. You know they, you know I remember in my rehab um, it was like get a hobby. We know now, living through it, it isn't that simple. Of course, yeah, we can't replace an addiction with knitting, horse riding, I'll take up swimming, like even the gym, you know. But what it means is that we are actively doing stuff that gives us a sense of achievement or that feeling that we used to get from alcohol without drinking. So I get my kicks from doing a workout. That's what I found. So I really enjoy pushing myself to the limits, knowing my limits and getting out of that, and that sets me up for the day. My morning prayers, I speak to my sober girls, do my meetings, aaca, whatever, and that I put my energy into, and my family, obviously, like first and foremost you know they didn't have a mum, a proper mum really, for like so many years and redirecting my efforts into family work and stuff that I now can do.
Speaker 1:That's where it's all driven towards that's one of the things I do like to see. Following on you, following your journey on Instagram, is seeing all these events that you do take your children to, like the premieres and stuff like that, like how nice are their childhood because I remember when we spoke before about you, feeling like you wasn't there as a mother.
Speaker 1:And I know you can never truly make up for lost time and things like that, but being able to give them that life, I think that looks incredible when you're taking them to all these places, it looks incredible. It looks incredible. It's an Instagram versus reality sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, instagram versus reality, absolutely. I know how lucky I am but fortunately or unfortunately, my kids were born into that way and you know, like all these amazing places that we get invited to go to and to see, that's been part of their upbringing. They have no idea that that's not real life. Yeah, but I think Faith, now she's 12, she's definitely changed her mindset and I think she understands what is real and isn't. She's developed into such a beautiful young lady and that's been because I've been present for the last three years as well Like, had I not been, it would have been more premieres and more parties I dragged my kids to because I could drink. Now I have the ability to say, oh, don't fancy that, we're not going to go.
Speaker 2:So actually, those treats have actually been a lot less than and infrequent, because I don't need feel the need to go to everything anymore, because I'm not aiding my drinking yeah and so as a family, we discuss which ones we'd like to go to, and that's really empowering as well for them.
Speaker 1:There's some like the Disney stuff and I guess that looks a lot more appealing to them as kids. Yeah, of course.
Speaker 2:And now Phase 12, like she doesn't want to go and see, you know, every movie that's coming out that's a cartoon, and even AJ's kind of over that now. So unless it's something that we all want to do and the kids really want to do that I don't drag them to every event, whereas you know, in addiction they got to go more events because I would drag them to them, because I knew that there was alcohol there in a party.
Speaker 1:For me, yeah, and I've been being younger you don't really question it as much do you? I guess you just go along with whatever your parents are doing, because, yeah, I guess I imagine it's quite funny for them at school, like I just go and tell the friends that they're just going to a movie premiere or something, because I imagine that's quite different to what the lifestyle that their friends have.
Speaker 2:Do you know? No, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Are they aware of, like the differences that they have, I guess, with having you as a mother and the things that they get to do in comparison to what other people are doing?
Speaker 2:Faith absolutely does. That's come with age. Yeah, aj's a little bit less aware, but he still understands. You know, like they're 10 and 12 now and they know that not all the kids, their friends, get to do what we do. That's why we we actually extend the invite, we always ask for extra tickets and they rotate their friends so we can take them with us if I get invited to premieres, we very rarely go as a couple me and Hughie.
Speaker 2:We don't have childcare or you know parents that live by, so I tend to take my mates and rotate you know all my best mates and treat them that way. Um, and that's been a pleasure. Can we just acknowledge that? The jacket yes um, because I don't always wear a pink lady's jackets um to to work they're very comfy, but I just got handed this and you're wearing yours and I thought it would be really impolite if I didn't wear it.
Speaker 1:And, and it's so comfy, no well to be fair that that takes us to the point I like to talk about.
Speaker 1:You know your impact on the book, on this podcast, has been nothing short of extraordinary.
Speaker 1:You know, by sharing your addiction, your recovery, you've not only touched, I guess, the hearts of many, but you've also you've saved lives.
Speaker 1:You know, your courage in opening up what your experiences has really highlighted the struggles that so many people will face and, as a result, you know, nearly three million people have been reached by our series and we've had people here refer themselves into our service to help with their alcohol addiction as a result of listening to you. It's nice, isn't it? But not only your generosity the donations from the celebrity mastermind appearance fee to establish this studio space has really solidified your commitment to making a real difference in the lives of us. And, um, I'm actually thrilled to show you that, that your episode has been instrumentally named as a nomination in the radio academy's best new podcast category because your clip featured now a submission, uh, it's undoubtedly contributed to our recognition as a series, uh, but more importantly, has amplified the message of, of your message and the reach of our podcast oh my god, that's a lot it is a lot and uh, to be fair, I had to.
Speaker 1:I had to write that down because I wanted to make sure that you really, really understood. So thank you, michelle, your courage, your generosity, your unwavering support. You have truly made a difference in this community and we are deeply grateful to have had the opportunity to work with you oh, my god, that is a lot to ingest.
Speaker 2:That's amazing guys, well done. But no, like, no, seriously, it's amazing. Um, I remember when I, when I got invited to do the podcast, it was because we had a gig in hull and so we could make it work and it was just a perfect fit and I was finding my feet in recovery and you guys were new and I would like to add it, absolutely, of course, like I'm there anyway like it's not like I'm taking a day away from the kids or whatever and just fit so perfectly.
Speaker 2:so that's what I call like a higher power moment, like i'm'm not a religious person but I'd like to think I'm spiritual now, whereby I think things happen for a reason, and I'm so honoured to have been part of that and to see this grow. It's just that's a lot. That's a lot.
Speaker 1:I like the describing of it being a higher power moment because it really was to think of. When we first met, you were at Proud and you saw a rainbow jacket as you was leaving the stage. You commented that you liked her jackets and I went home and I told my wife. I said, oh, we saw Libby Hicks. She said, oh, did you speak to Michelle? I was like, oh, no, we didn't get a chance. She said, oh, she's in recovery. I was like is she? Because she's in, she follows like a lot of social media stuff. And I was like I came into this office, funn it. We emailed your agent and it all, just, it all just stemmed to where we are here, all just that chance meeting of us seeing you coming off the stage. Yeah, if it wasn't for those, jackets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if it wasn't for which I, which I have. I have that jacket, it's in my kit bag for for stage, if we do pride and stuff, so I still have that jacket? I hope, yeah, I'd love to see you wear it at another pride festival. It is there.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, what a chance. Meeting right place, right time and look where yous are, like all of everything that you've just listed there. It's an absolute honour to be part of all of that. And when, when? I mean I'd like to think most people in recovery when they do talk out and do do podcasts and do speak out that our end goal is to reach that one person. Right, so the other numbers who followed that is just incredible. Yeah, but if we could reach one person like I was reached, then that's, that's, that's our objective of doing this, and also, selfishly, if I don't do things like this, I don't get to let things go or to talk about my struggles for you isn't?
Speaker 2:it absolutely and that's why we, that's why it's so important to open the narrative of addiction and to talk, which is you know. Obviously, one of the ethos's of everything that you're doing here is to talk about what people are struggling with, because it doesn't just reach out to other people. It's also something we need to carry on our recovery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's understanding the weight of it, I guess, isn't it? That's a big thing.
Speaker 2:That's a lot. Well done on the nomination. Thank you very much. That's incredible.
Speaker 1:We're very much looking forward to it. We'll see how it goes. We're half confident, aren't we as confident as you can be in any award situation, really?
Speaker 2:Who are you up against?
Speaker 1:There's a lot of BBC in there. To be fair, we feel like we are among giants when we look at that category listing. But even just to be nominated my producer gave me the facts of how many podcasts are actually put forward even to be shortlisted into that that in itself is an achievement, whether we win the award or not, I think just to say that we have been nominated for this award.
Speaker 1:I don't think I realised the weight of it. To be fair, my producer's more clued up on this stuff. He told me I was like oh cool.
Speaker 2:He was like no, no this is a really big thing. It is a big deal. I is a big deal um, I've been to those awards in the past before.
Speaker 1:It's a really big deal and I'm so happy for years. Yeah, it was. I think it was rylan clark that presented it last year I saw a video. Yes, I was like oh, this, this isn't this is you mean your? Double, yeah, my double, according to that picture, um, I guess, I guess, coming back to my question, then, really and you've kind of answered this already but how important is it to you to use your platform to help others in your, or have been in in your situation?
Speaker 2:you know I'll be honest at the beginning.
Speaker 1:I I didn't want anybody to know um I think that's the amazing thing about it, isn't it?
Speaker 2:it's it's to do that complete 180, to have all that shame about it, so much shame, and guilt and remorse and and like just thinking that if anybody knew the state I'm in or knew that I was an addict, how would that pan out? And my thought process meant divorced, never work again, lose all my friends and never get booked for another job again. That's what my mind takes me to, and you know. And so for anybody going through addiction, I completely and utterly resonate with that way of thinking, because that was me. It wasn't until people found out that I was in the priory that then I could see firsthand how this could go different and how actually there was support. I thought there'd be no support system. I didn't think anybody would get what I was going through, because I thought it was just me who suffered from this you know, when you're in active addiction, you think that you're the only person who can't stop.
Speaker 2:You're the only person that's literally on that floor. You know, when you're in active addiction, you think that you're the only person who can't stop. You're the only person that's literally on that floor. You know whether it's drinking from a massive two litre bottle of vodka in my case, that you're the only person that is there. There's nobody else like you. Everyone's different Because you compare yourself to everybody else. Different, um, because you you don't, because you can pay yourself to everybody else.
Speaker 2:And but once it was kind of public knowledge where I was being treated and what I was being treated for. Um, I was very shut off from the outside world. But the couple days when I came out, it was very supportive and it was all we've suffered too, and I was like, oh my god, there's people like me there. So I was then opened up to the idea that I wasn't alone, and so maybe if that message had been out there for me to hear that I wasn't the only one earlier, who knows, I might have asked for help earlier. Probably not, because they say that unless you're willing to accept help which which I totally understand you can't receive it, and that's kind of how it was, you know, until I was ready to accept what help was there, but I realized I wasn't alone.
Speaker 2:So then for me to then think that way, okay, so then if I'm talking about it openly, so then, if I'm talking about it openly, then maybe somebody who was like me six weeks ago would hear that story and get help before it got to my stage or before it gets worse, because there's so many yets in my story. You know, I didn't do heroin, I didn't take pills, I didn't take crack yet crack. Yet yeah, had I continued down the road I was at, which was quite dark in itself, all of those yet potentially would have happened by now because the drugs, the alcohol, stopped working, stopped working for me. So you move on to something else to get the same feeling or talking about that escapism yeah how else can I escape?
Speaker 2:and what sort?
Speaker 1:of escapism. Can this new substance?
Speaker 2:yeah, made you know because like it's not, it's not like I became a heavy drinker and then and then go right, in a few months time I'm going to go on to cocaine yeah it was like I drank a lot but I'd never touch cocaine. Oh my god, that's, that's a god, I would never do that. And then that came. So me, me swearing off, I'd never touch x, y and z you don't know, do you?
Speaker 2:we don't know, and if I ever you know, they say live, each day is a time. Because I've only got today, because I can't tell you tomorrow I'll be, I'll be clean and sober, um, I can tell you, I hope I'm not gonna be and I'm gonna do everything in my power not to be. And right now, sitting here with you, I don't have any urge to drink or use, but say that relapse came it very quickly, elevates to those.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:That hadn't happened before, but will happen if I continue.
Speaker 1:There's a couple of things that I think, talking about the isolation, one of the lads that I mentored said to me was at the church last week and was talking about the community area and he said you know, he said the opposite of addiction and isolation is community and connection. And I was like, ah, there's this little penny drop moment where I was like, hey, you're absolutely right there and it is a lot of the isolating, as you've said in your story to us, like you, just shoot yourself off and drink.
Speaker 2:Yeah, isolation.
Speaker 1:The isolation and the drink and those things go hand in hand. But for recovery it is about the community. It is about the connection. It is about having the support. I guess reality TV has obviously played a huge part in your professional life and you've got a big break on. You've got your big break on pop stars. Since we last spoke to you, it's fascinating to see how you've embraced challenging experiences like dancing on ice and the celebrity sas, who dares wins, where you got uh whiplash and swamp eye as well, oh my, god, I'm wrecked.
Speaker 1:Do you feel there's an element of intentionally choosing difficult challenges and, if so, do you see any parallels between this approach and the journey of recovery, where individuals often face tough tasks head on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great question. Actually there is a parallel and I think for me, pushing myself in those things and having it a goal helps my recovery, undoubtedly, whether it's running a marathon, a half marathon, you know. For me obviously it was SAS and Dan's Ice. They're the extremes, not everybody gets to experience something like that. But pushing yourself to an end goal, having something to work towards, definitely helps recovery, especially early stages, and I was able to do those things. So, pre getting sober, I've auditioned for those and danced on ice twice before. There was no way that they would have hired me because the last time I auditioned I was drunk. I didn't think I'd be a drunk, I had no idea they knew. But I had just had, you know, a drink in the car park before I went on the ice. How dangerous that would have been, so dangerous. And at that time, through addiction, I was like, well, screw them, you know, what do they know? And I'd be angry, really angry, that I wasn't getting things that I wanted or that I thought I wanted.
Speaker 2:But, no, like looking back. Of course they're not going to hire me. So those two particular shows was something that I wanted to prove myself that I could do. I found out by then being accepted on those shows how alcohol and drugs had been held in me back so long. It proved not that it needed to be proven because I understood, but it showed me that for so many years, so many opportunities would have been missed. Yeah, because of my addiction, when at that time I was so angry that I drank on that so it got worse. So doing those things to push myself was to prove to me that I could do it and I utterly failed at both. So, yeah, I mean, I did everything, everything and more. The experience doing both those shows was incredible, very, very different.
Speaker 1:Is Celebrity SAS as hard as it looks? Because on camera, you know, it's kind of one of the. It reminds me there was a celebrity that one and I'm a celebrity, get me out of here before, and I think it was Harry Redknapp and he said something along the lines of he thought that they filmed it and then cut it, and then they all had bacon sandwiches in the bricks. He said that's what it is. Throughout the full thing. Celebrity SAS? Is it as harsh as it looks? It's worse. Is it worse?
Speaker 2:It is worse and I did do my research before going on it, I mean, I accepted it anyway before. I did my research, but I found out from, like Harry Katona and. Jake Quiginton and a couple of other people that I knew had been on it, that it was going to be worse than what I saw. Okay, but nothing really prepares you. As soon as we went into the jungle, the producers, the cameras, and there's loads they're all camouflaged. You don't talk to them, they don't pull you aside. For, for, for off you know, camera meetings and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:They do not get involved. Wow, the only people in that jungle then is is is yourselves and the four guys. That is it. That's all we talk to them and each other. And there was so many things that aren't shown, like the sleep deprivation. Every hour they would get you up. We were on night watch, so every hour you'd you know two people would be on watch and then you'd go and wake up the next couple of people that were doing it. So by I think I lasted day three. By that time we're all hallucinating and and tired and knackered, as well as doing that day's thing. The backpacks that we all wear are the same weight, no matter who you are. That was my downfall. I couldn't move with the power.
Speaker 2:Me and Melinda Messenger it weighed like half of our body weight. We couldn't walk with it, let alone climb a mountain, so I kind of figured that we were going to be going quite early on. Well, at least you did it, though, but I loved it. In a weird, weird, messed up kind of way. I absolutely loved it.
Speaker 1:Do you know what? I think it's just one of the things where, like I guess, like anything with TV, when you're watching a drama, there's the cut, there's the start again, and you just kind of even when you watch it on tv like is it as hard as as it looks? Yeah, but with those shows, I think, since having little snippets of what things like the jungle could be like and and that it is one of those where I did have to question.
Speaker 1:I was like no, I think it could be as brutal as it seems, you know? No, it is definitely far from the glamour that you got on Dancing on Ice as well.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I mean, there were very, very different things Very different shows.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like SAS was a condensed hardest thing I've done, but Dancing on Ice for my body was the hardest thing I've done. Yeah, long process, the training I loved it Like I loved every single thing about it. I loved being on ice. I just wasn't good at it, even though I loved it. And I think, like I come to terms with the fact halfway through training that I wasn't going to be awesome, so I just gave it away. And that's the power of recovery right, giving it away and going. You know what? This is everything that I dreamed of. I always want to do dance and ice. I know I'm not going to be amazing, so let's just make the most of it.
Speaker 2:I put in 120% effort to end up to every training on time, unlike some people that get away with whatever they get away with. You know we won't rename people. There's always people like that in the past. And usually they do. Well, you know. But anyway, no, not angry at all.
Speaker 1:Give it away, not bitter at all.
Speaker 3:Give it away.
Speaker 2:You see on the podcast and just took it for what it was.
Speaker 3:And.
Speaker 2:I had the best time, just age and my body, you know, through menopause and addiction, like you, a professional ice skater telling me something in here to get down to the feet in a nanosecond just wasn't going to happen. I had to process it, give it a bit of a cuddle down there and then tell it what to do to the feet. And by the time I got to the feet the feet were wobbling.
Speaker 1:It just didn't work for me. It's not easy. It's one of the ones where you see a lot of those shows and and I often question when people come on, and it's like, when they come on and they're able to hit something perfect, they're like, oh, I've never done this before in my life.
Speaker 2:Bollocks Exactly.
Speaker 1:Am I allowed to swear?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Absolute bollocks.
Speaker 2:I know it's bollocks, I know that is bollocks. They've been training for a year already, or something like that, or skated in childhood, I think the people who produce the shows and who make the shows have to have a cast of people who are going to be good and bad.
Speaker 1:It wouldn't be a good show if everyone was bad.
Speaker 2:So it is unfair absolutely. Because we're not starting on level playing field here. Like I am not an ice skater, I can dance on flat floor without blades, but it's very different on ice. But there was a lot of people who had that training and some people who had the training that actually weren't as good as some of the other people, so it's all relative isn't it but? Yeah, there's definitely those people.
Speaker 1:I like how they call it reality TV as well, though, when you do think it's like how much of it is the reality of it and how much isn't it.
Speaker 2:Do you know what Dan's eyes is? Brutal though the injuries that we were, all that most of us had. And you know I remember Carly, the moment that she was left, left the show. She skated through a dislocated shoulder like a battered ribcage. She had to have surgery on that and she skated through that pain. We were all in pain. It wasn't easy. And you come out and you smile Whereas you know, as a viewer of Dancing on Ice before the show, now watching it, I can't really love it as much as I did, yeah and because I know how painful the people who are doing it are going through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's yeah it's harsh it is harsh. I mean to get for the professional ice skater, to get a celebrity ready for professional ice skating. It must be so frustrating. Yeah, so they can be hard on us and like, although we're all friends, it could be tough loving yeah, I can imagine yeah, and lots of fallouts yes, well, that's it, isn't it really?
Speaker 1:it's, it's, it's it's. Do you know? It's like anything, though when you say it's kind of turned it for a little bit, it does. You can watch. So you, I call it suspending your disbelief, and then, once you kind of know the in and workings of it and how it all works and you can kind of understand the things of how it looks backstage and stuff. I've had similar experiences with things before where I've kind of it's just took the the shine off the apple a little bit and it's not as easy to enjoy as as it used to be yeah, it's the same as big brother for
Speaker 2:me because I did big brother celebrity big brother and so I know how it works um. And now, having a bean on it and watching it, I know how manipulating the edit can be that's it and what they're doing, you know, and how they edit situations so that the people who aren't getting on yeah, like we didn't have the whole, there was a secret parlor to do our makeup.
Speaker 2:They do that now yeah, like they all have their hair and makeup done, their nails, and that wasn't like we were roughing it, it wasn't like that. When I did it, it was proper.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've got a friend I was on um. He was on a love island years ago and he recently went on as part of the all-star love island and all right, who's?
Speaker 1:that he's called adam maxted uh adam, yeah, yeah, yeah I've, um, I've been for a few years now but talking to him about his experience and we met in December and I said to him like how do you feel about going in this time round? He said, well, I've got that experience now. He said I'm not going to let do you know what you were saying then about the manipulation of it? He went I'm not going to let the producers manipulate the story.
Speaker 1:I'm going to go in self as possible. Yeah and um, I didn't watch it. Um, my wife watched it and she said it's said you can tell the age difference between him and the rest of them?
Speaker 1:yeah, because he was in there for, I'm gonna say, more genuine and authentic reasons than other people would have gone in for no, absolutely yeah, because I watched that and you could see that he was able to shut down the um, the manipulation and things like that, that probably when he went in the first time around, it was quite easy for him to yes to get caught upon because you're just in there, you're a young lad and you're just doing what the producers are telling you to do, but they're just trying to create good tv and that's the era.
Speaker 2:Like what faith. My daughter, who's 12, is growing up like what. What do you want to do? Faith, I'm going to be on love islands. Yeah, I mean she, she might have kind of gone past that stage now.
Speaker 1:But I get what you're saying.
Speaker 2:But that is what they aspire to be they aspire to be yeah, yeah, Because from that. We've had some you know amazing people come out from shows like that and Geordie Shore, like Vicky Pattinson and some people who have gone on to do you know great work. Yeah, and I'm not knocking them for that and they're the lucky ones, but it really isn't like that. You don't do a reality show and then all of a sudden you've got your rest of your life. Those people who are still here work hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Work really hard at development, because it's not just a golden ticket.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I think it's having that understanding of that. And going back to Adam, he was going in there to further his professional wrestling career.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And he knew what he was going in for. He knew that wasn't his meal ticket.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But he said there's so many people that do go in and you look at reality TV and you look at, obviously, the suicides that have come with.
Speaker 3:Love.
Speaker 1:Island and you know talking about the aftercare of being on a reality show like that, because you've said people think that is their meal ticket. They'll do the show and realistically it's only for a year and then the next series is there and you're not famous anymore. You're kind of you're kind of forgotten about, and it's all about the new cast.
Speaker 2:So that is the you know shame of shows like that yeah, it is, and I think, like you've just when you mentioned the suicide as well, like I lost a friend, sophie from Newcastle, and and a couple of other people who I knew via friends, um, that have been in the Zork places or taken their life.
Speaker 2:Um because the shows and the, the image it perceives is all of this will be the end waiting for you, and it is for a while Like they will get everything they want, they'll get paid an absolute fortune Like it wasn't like that in my day at Liberty X. We didn't get paid to turn up to clubs. We went because it was free drink and that was it it was free drink.
Speaker 2:I was there but like these guys get handed money and then it stops because the new lot are out and then that's a danger zone. There's no aftercare, there's no one looking after their needs, there's just themselves, probably pissed it all away by then, not really got anything to show for it, thinking it was going to always be there. Oh, I'll be the next Vicky Pattinson. X, y, z, and it doesn't happen. And then they get to dark places and it's unfortunately our system that's chewed them up, spat them out and that's what needs to change.
Speaker 1:And there's there's an age thing as well. Like if I, if I went in there at 32 and if I went on a show like that, I'd have that understanding. But I think when you've got people going in on shows like that that are only 18, 19, 20, so young, they're not going to understand it.
Speaker 1:They know and I think we do live in a, in a world where I think it's almost like I thought I was going to be a millionaire by the time I was 19, or something like that is the way, I still think I'm going to be now.
Speaker 1:I'm not, though, contrary to opinion the world, the way the world is presented to you, it's almost like you kind of fed this dream that you're going to be famous, you're going to be a rock star, and then there's this harsh reality. When I said, you know, I remember I think 2000 now, when I got my first job, it was like receiving a, a warm cup of piss in the face. You know where. You realize, oh, this is what life is. Yeah, I was doing a manual labor job and I absolutely hated and it was just that.
Speaker 1:That was the reality of it and I think in a way that led to my own depression at that time. And my own anxiety is because school, um, pop culture, the media had kind of almost laid out to me that that my life wasn't going to be like that yeah I don't know how or why, I don't know if it's just my own personal experience, but I just thought life was going to be different.
Speaker 1:Right, in a way. You go from school, your education, and the path is out in front of you, and then it's like you just come to the end of it and there's just fields of nothingness and it's like where do I, where do? I go now what I do now, because everything's been dictated to you for all that time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean for me I'm the other side, where I had a dream.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I knew what my dream was, and I set out to do it, and I'm very, very lucky that I did work hard, though, Like it wasn't handed to me and I did all of those jobs that you can ever think of to you know, in the meantime, while I wasn't doing what I would love and I really thought that was it, it was the end of the road. And then pop stars came along and changed my life. How old was you when pop stars came along? 20.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And that was, and the audition for it. The advertisement in the stage newspaper was 17 to 21. And I was coming up to 21 soon, so I knew that that was. I was coming to the end of my able period.
Speaker 1:It's a very short window, isn't it? Well, it was.
Speaker 2:I think the narrative definitely changed with. Youtube and all of that.
Speaker 1:People don't know themselves.
Speaker 2:Any age, any age could crack in at any time, which is great. But back then it was literally you had to be a kid and so I had been in and out of bands and solo singing and doing competitions since I was about 14. Loads of auditions that I got from the stage I saved money, work to go down to London to audition for it just happened that that one. I got from the stage, I saved money, work to go down to London to audition, for it just happened that one I got further along and so I managed to get into that bubble.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, it was nothing like I thought it would be, and not that it was awful.
Speaker 3:I loved it. But yeah, so for you that must.
Speaker 2:I can't relate to that because I didn't have that, so I don't know how.
Speaker 1:No, it's weird because, again, you don't necessarily know what you want to do at 18. And I think this is why it is quite easy to think, oh, I want to do this and I want to do this, like the more glamorous things and anything that's going to be handed to you, and then, when it's not, it is difficult, but like, say how hard it is for, for I imagine you know your daughter will experience this maybe in a few years time of maybe she doesn't know what she wants to do yet she has no idea exactly.
Speaker 1:And then there's the pressures when you get 18. It's almost like it's quite funny now, because I look back and think no one expects me to know what I've wanted to do really. But in my own head I was thinking everyone is looking at me like, yeah, you're 18, you should know what you want to go, do, go and do it. But that was our era. Life isn't like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I remember like on work experience in like I don't know how old were we at work experience I mean? Early like I want to say, as soon as we started senior school, we started and they did. I don't even know that they did it now and I remember having a clear insight with school of where I wanted to go, because that was the career path I was going towards yeah, I mean I hadn't got a clue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember doing like I worked with the nursery and then I did work experience in a beauty salon a hair salon.
Speaker 1:That's it. Childcare beauty yeah, yeah, it was like that because it was gvnqs yeah a gvnq of business or beauty. Well, beauty sounded more interesting. So I was going to be an electrician or a plumber or something. Yeah, tradesman, yeah, it's kind of things that was set out in front of you isn't it funny, um, and now, god, you could the opportunities are endless for people.
Speaker 1:I think now but now there's almost made up yeah, I look at things like is that a thing, is that a qualification? Yeah, how does that work? There's an influencer degree or something I'm like oh, that is mental, mental michelle, you've been um, you know, both fat shamed and skinny shamed. I've seen recently uh, some of the comments that I have seen on your social media have been things such as eat more, you're too skinny, you look awful.
Speaker 1:20 years ago, you had the opposite and you was called the fat one in liberty x um, I've got here on the record that you said I was so ashamed I took diet pills, I binged and made myself sick and, as a direct result, I live with a heart problem and it will never get better. I just want to talk to you about this, as you've previously developed an eating disorder and you've said that the same feeling can come back to you when you hear negative remarks about your current physical appearance yeah talking about instagram, talking about social media, talking about being influencers what is that like to have people commenting on on these personal aspects of life?
Speaker 1:I saw a picture you posted recently and you put loose skin and all and I was like I thought it's a bit. Obviously you're taking it on the chin in that sense, but I could see that this is something that someone has said to you and you was turning it back and making it into a caption of your own picture, right, that's very clever of what you said.
Speaker 2:I didn't actually have that, but I have had that. Yeah yeah, and I do do that and that's my own fault in Downfall because then you feel like you've got to prove something.
Speaker 1:Is it pre-empting possible comments that could be made your way?
Speaker 2:It's like I don't know why I wanted to do that. I don't know what came over me. I was looking back at the pictures, that particular picture picture. Recently I was looking back at pictures of the holiday and they were all amazing. And then, um, I was looking at the this picture that I had done. I was on the beach alone. Kids hated the sand, so they were just in the pool and, uh, hugh just didn't want to move. So I, I took myself to the beach and and I usually was there for about an hour just listening to podcasts or listening to music, and I was taking my own little selfies, you know, in an arty way, and none of them I used on social media. And I thought, why didn't I use that? And I look back and I go, oh, that's why. And I'm like, I really like that picture and I thought, do you know what? I'm just going to put it up and I'm going to point out it before somebody else does, and that's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah because I really like that picture of me. It's okay to say I really like that picture of me, because there's like 10,000 that you don't like. And then I was like right, yeah, I'm just going to point it out before anybody else can, and then understand how a woman would feel if it was them. Yeah, and just put it into perspective that all the other photos that I put up are me as well. They're just different angles. I'm jumping, I'm stretching, you know like that piece of me is there. I just choose not to put it on display. It doesn't mean I'm ashamed of it, just means like I don't want everyone to see my skin.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's as simple as that. Yeah, I just think it's. It's one of them things where how difficult is it putting yourself out there in that way, though? Do you find it challenging? Do you worry about the comments that are going to be brought your way?
Speaker 2:I only I think when I put myself out there I expect whatever's going to happen. Yeah, it's when it catches me off guard, like if I'm just putting up a picture or me working out. Usually it's when I'm working out I'll get the comments about I'm looking too skinny old, have I, I eaten? And that catches you off guard, because what my husband sees and what I'd like to think I see is a strong woman yeah I do work hard, I do like lifting weights and I eat good food.
Speaker 2:I do not deprive myself of anything and I love food. Yeah, I mean, that's why I battled with food, because I love food, yeah, um, and I I can't get myself into a situation where I used to be with food, so I'm just aware of what I eat, because that can make a spiral into something else. But getting back to the comments, so when it, when it throws me like that, it does hit a nerve in the same way that the fat shaming comments hit me back.
Speaker 2:Then I can turn to food or I cannot eat yeah so when they say you look too thin or you don't look this way or you look that, I'm like what do they want me to do? Yeah, do they want me to get fat? I don't want to get fat, like without being disrespectful, like I don't want to feel uncomfortable. I don't want to get fat for somebody else, like I didn't want to get skinny for anybody else, like I didn't get skinny for anybody or for me. This is like my natural body, working out, eating well and not drinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I never knew what a natural body looked like for me because I was too busy drinking corpus amounts of alcohol, and but those comments do catch me off guard and it can, it can trigger me in the same way that I was when I was fatter and bigger sorry, bigger that I turned to food for ease and comfort yeah and obviously my most recent addiction is alcohol.
Speaker 2:Now I'm not saying that those comments trigger me to want to drink, but it's the same trigger process and so I can deal with it. I'd like not to have to deal with it. I'd like not to have to recognize that the trigger is gone off in my mind, that switch that we have as addicts, and that switch has gone. And then you're looking for something for ease and comfort. Now I recognise it and I really try not to comment back. That's hard for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would be the hardest part.
Speaker 3:And have your own back.
Speaker 2:I used to do that. All the time I got myself into awful scrapes, awful trouble.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, but why shouldn't you be able to, you know, stand up for? Yourself in a way, that's the annoying thing, isn't?
Speaker 3:it Well.
Speaker 1:You kind of are almost expected to just be the bigger person.
Speaker 2:If somebody said it to my face and give them one back.
Speaker 1:And that's the irony that they wouldn't say it to you first.
Speaker 2:Exactly that. So you've hit the nail on the head. So now I recognise that. Those people who are saying those things, I have no idea what they're going through. I have no idea their pain or their suffering or what they're dealing with, or whether they've had an eating disorder, or whether they can't lose weight, or whether they work out and they're not seeing results, or they've just gone through divorce, whatever it might be there was comments usually are derived from something that they're not happy with themselves, and that stops me from retaliating and that helps me give it away.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's now how I can see it. I mean, three years ago I would never have seen it like that you know, at all. I wouldn't have cared he was saying those comments. I would have been a bright bitch back, but I can't see them, so you don't know what's going on, and that helps me deal with that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it does. It switches that trigger, whereas you know, before, in early noughties, in the beginning of the band, when I was feeling bigger and being told I was bigger from people within our management and that I should think about losing weight, I ate more and then to punish myself from eating more I would be sick. And then I got myself addicted to diet pills and ephedrine um, not just from that comment, like I had this before yeah, yeah um, but that's where I turned to for food, the way that I turned to alcohol you've.
Speaker 1:I've got it here that you said, um, I wouldn't say I had body dysmorphia, but there are definitely things that I've wanted to change. I think I've always had a lot of self-esteem, and that was really hard being in the public eye, especially during liberty x. What other coping mechanisms you found most effective when dealing with the negative comments or pressure from social media? Do you know, and have they evolved over time? Or is it a case of just being the bigger person?
Speaker 2:a bit of everything I do think age yeah definitely educates one on how to deal with negativity.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, like faith is 12 and and she's seen the negativity that I that I've had because she's on social media. You can't stop it. You know that's their era, um, but she can now see the last three years how I've dealt with it, so hopefully that builds well with her going up. Um, but I think age definitely represents how I deal with it and how I feel about it. But I have no idea how the youth of today and the people in the media now who are newer cope with it, because it's everywhere. Yeah, like in early northeast. For us it was just the newspapers on online a little bit, but it was the newspapers. You know, if I did something, got drunk, it was on the front page of the daily star. The next day, um and um, and I was. I was so elated that I was a pop star. Any attention was good for me. I kind of seeked it.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:I definitely seeked it. If I went out, I'd wear less clothes so that I would be on the front of the star, and whilst that's not great, I admit that has been a cornerstone of my notoriety in the business and being able to work unfortunately, it's that old press is good press as well
Speaker 3:isn't it yeah?
Speaker 2:exactly, but with that puts you there then for scrutiny.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because when they lift you up, they tear you down, and so I had both of that, and that's why today's youth who are coming out of those shows that Love Island and things like that they're brought down quicker and more abruptly because that height gets quicker and more intense straight away.
Speaker 1:And the voice is amplified as well. If you've gone back to the newspapers, you was on the front cover of the Daily Star that was one journalist's story and then obviously it'd be public opinion after that.
Speaker 1:but you didn't hear the opinion after that, whereas now you hear the story and then you can actually see the public opinion after that as well, with the backlash for social media. I think we've spoke about um bullying. Do you know before you know you know children were bullied during school hours and at least, at least, they got a reprieve from it over the weekend and on an evening.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but now it's because of social media.
Speaker 1:It's relentless, it's online bullying, it's trolling and it's it's because, of social media. It's relentless, it's online bullying, it's trolling and it's anonymous accounts. And, funny enough, some of the comments that you see on your Instagram if you actually click on the profiles, they're all like anonymous profiles.
Speaker 2:The people without any pictures. Yeah, I do do that now and again.
Speaker 1:They're accounts that are set up specifically to troll and upset other people Specifically and you just think how do you have the time?
Speaker 2:in your life to do that. Yeah, I mean the other time I've clicked on it right and I've gone to their profile Because look, look, look, don't get me wrong there are a lot less negative comments.
Speaker 3:I'd say 95% of the people that follow me, follow me for a reason Positivity, and that's what.
Speaker 2:I'd like to think. I think people who are following me because they hate me is ridiculous. Don people who are following me because they hate me is ridiculous. Don't follow me. I'd rather have less followers, because that's not the point of following somebody. Why follow someone if you hate what?
Speaker 1:it's often when your posts come up in the algorithms, like sometimes the comments are from people that aren't actually following. Yeah, it's people that have gone on the the grid, as they call them, to scroll through and they've come across pictures especially on the public profile, so sometimes it's people that aren't even following. But imagine going out your way. That's what I don't care. Yeah, I know that's the bizarre part, isn't it? So?
Speaker 2:that's what I mean. Like there's got to be something behind it, or you're just pure nasty bitch, yeah um, yeah, because I've clicked on some of those profiles and they're only following me yeah so they, and then I block the account, right, if, if I don't have time to go through everything, but, um, if I do do that, I will block them immediately. Don't respond, just block.
Speaker 2:I'm, I try and do that, but then they, they must reinvent themselves because I can't I can't have that many people who just follow me to hate me it's got to be just the one person where does it come from?
Speaker 1:um? Where does the low self-esteem come from, though? Because, obviously, as an adult especially and you know from for as long as I've been aware of you you always present yourself as a really confident person. So where does the where did that low self-esteem come from in yourself?
Speaker 2:um, yeah, I think confidence is different now to what it used to be for me. Um, confidence was an act yeah, and I was able to act, and then let it all out in the form of, again, isolation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know eating and isolated and eat my feelings and not feel worthy of Like. I definitely still suffer from that today. That's something I really have to work with. My imposter syndrome yeah, so that's what I suffer with. To work with my imposter syndrome. Yeah, so that's what I suffer with like all my life imposter syndrome from going to school with the school friends, getting into cliques, not feeling where I belong.
Speaker 2:You know, we hear this a lot about, about not feeling where we belong in addicts. But I think that's the general like um, not knowing where I fit and then trying to strive to fit into that, moulding myself to fit into it, but never really believing in myself. So then that's where the lack of confidence comes from. And with singing and being in the band, I honestly thought at some point it was going to tap me on the shoulder and say this is all a joke. I'm like how could this happen to me? I've got no training. I'm from a council sketch, say in gateshead. I dreamed about being a pop star and I'm pop star. Like that's not real, like that that shit doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:Just waiting for someone yeah, and in my mind, all of the other members were way more talented than me. God knows why all of us there, and because I thought it.
Speaker 2:I thought they thought it yeah so I convinced myself that the band and other people thought what I thought. And that's where things get worse, because, whilst not saying out loud, if I'm constantly thinking, everybody's thinking that I'm shit. Constantly looking at me, oh she's the fat one. Constantly saying, oh, she can't sing as good as the others. Yeah, I had those comments, don't get me wrong, it stemmed from somewhere. But if I constantly believe that about myself, it's horrible place to be. Yeah, it really is, and and I've been in that place all my life and I can definitely still feel it today, but with sobriety has definitely brought me a newfound confidence of I don't give a fuck.
Speaker 1:Yeah, much like yourself. I think I've had even sometimes sitting in this chair. I have the imposter syndrome like how the hell am I doing this? What am I doing here? But I think there is for me that it was almost like when I turned 32. I just went you know what? Fuck it, just go with it. No one else can tell. And if no one else can tell, no one will know it's just I've got to remind myself that a lot of it is in my head, I mean.
Speaker 2:I have proper inferiority complex of all the things that you've been able to accomplish here with my help not because of me, but with help and that I am unworthy of. But that you understand that, how somebody could feel like that, because that's a lot and it's amazing. But to feel like that about every little thing that goes on in your life is a lot and it's hard, hard work. But definitely there is a turning point and you just like listen, if I don't, if I don't hit something on stage right, or if I, if I do a bum, no, what is the worst that could happen? Yeah, I spent so long dreading it and so doing it so I would infect myself with that kind of mind thought and disease. So I was shit on stage sometimes because I just believed I was. And now I'm like actually, no, I'm here for a reason.
Speaker 2:I know I must be all right, I got in the band yes and it is what it is, and and have fun and and genuinely, when you don't take yourself too seriously.
Speaker 1:You're better at what you do absolutely, yeah, I I found that I think sometimes, even with these podcasts some of them, do you know I get a little bit like, oh, I've got to get this perfecting, it's perfect. And sometimes if I just come and sit and you go, do you know, I'm just having a conversation exactly it suddenly becomes a lot more easier. Yeah, um, going back to the body image and the low self-esteem, um, what advice would you give to people who are dealing with some of the things that you've experienced?
Speaker 1:or are experiencing.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, I mean, it's a different race today, isn't?
Speaker 3:it.
Speaker 2:Like with social media, it's so evident what my daughter's going through, and so all I can do is relate it to her. And she's 12, going on 20, of course, and and it's difficult to give advice because we're living in a world where it was so different to what I was brought up in and although the only thing similar was that I looked up to like the supermodels back then and the actresses People now look up to influencers, it is what it is. We've got to learn to accept it, that social media isn't necessarily real.
Speaker 2:Um, and you have to understand that, because when you put up something on social media, we use a filter yeah so recognize what we're doing about our own things that we put up and, like I, I forgive I sorry, I forgive anybody who puts up a filter. I usually make it brighter, you know, or contrast. Sometimes that makes you look a little bit more defined, you know all these little things, whilst I'm not like making myself look like I've had face work. We all do a filter, so if I'm doing it, the next person's doing it and the next person's doing it more, more. So just don't believe the hype. If you're willing to filter your own life, then just the smartest thing to recognize is that they're all doing it too yeah, I think this is.
Speaker 1:It reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend and he made a comment about about my life on. So I used to put I haven't posted on social media in a while, but I used to post quite regularly about places I was going, things I was doing, um, and he said to me, he made the comment of oh, your life's so good and stuff like that. And I was like, yeah, because I'm only sharing the positive things. Yes, this was something that was said to me. He said if you look at the family photo album, what you'll see is the pictures of your mom and dad smiling, the happy days with the kids.
Speaker 2:He said you're not seeing the arguments you're not seeing the fallouts, he said, and because we don't capture them, we don't capture them.
Speaker 1:So he said what you've kind of got to understand is social media is a photo album of the best moments.
Speaker 3:He said you're not necessarily.
Speaker 1:I know some people are a lot more open about, and that's part of what people do. They share their darker moments as a way of inspiration to other people.
Speaker 2:But for the most part, from your day-to-day person like myself, I'm only sharing the good things I completely relate to that and, and whilst I share, you know, some bad stuff as well, by no means am I going to sit there and put up a picture of me waking up.
Speaker 3:Well, sometimes I do, actually but it's like, of course yeah because we don't, we don't even think about capture. Oh, look, shoot, let me take a picture you know, like that's not what we do yeah and that's the way I look at it as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely diet, exercise, healthy living and cleaning in is clearly a huge part of your recovery journey. How do you monitor and adjust your lifestyle to ensure it supports your recovery goals, and what specific routines have you found most beneficial in maintaining balance and health in your life?
Speaker 2:and balance is key. That's a key word in recovery. Um I it was hard at first to get a balance, because it's all recovery and and and that's not wrong you know, early onset.
Speaker 2:You know, we recommend 90 and 90, which is 90 meetings in 90 days and get a sponsor and do the work. And I did everything. I was told I was so scared of relapse. I'm so glad I did and I still live in recovery, um, but also at some point I had to recognize that I had a neglected family and, um, it became apparent that you can also overdo recovery, um, because I was so fearful of relapse that I did so many meetings that I was missing my family's needs.
Speaker 2:So balance is key. I don't ask their permission to go on a meeting. I still do my meetings, but with time and space and recovery, you find out what meetings work for you, what nights work for you as a family. There's no excuse to not do recovery and be with your family at the same time. Because there are so many avenues to reach out to, whether it's face-to-face meetings, recovery groups, things like what you're doing, listening to podcasts, getting to an online meeting they're 24 hours a day if you look for it.
Speaker 2:If, if you don't look for it, then you don't want it that bad. There are options out there, you know, and doing things like this and speaking out about it and creating facilities. What you've got here is a huge way forward Community coming together, getting community. But that doesn't mean that you have to then neglect your family at home and yourselves. First and foremost, recovery's at home. If I am not working recovery in the house and that doesn't mean walking around with a big book and smacking my kids with it, big book of AA. It means that if I'm not present for my children myself, my mind, my husband, I am no use in recovery or helping other people because I have to be focused at home safe, happy, working recovery.
Speaker 1:That way yeah um, so it goes hand in hand I think balance is a really good word to use. I met someone before and he said he became addicted to recovery he spent so much time just in and around recovery.
Speaker 1:He was volunteering, he was going to meetings every night and you know again, the night in and night he works for people. But when that continues, he said, I realised I replaced one addiction with another. He said, granted, this new addiction was much more healthier, but he said it was still having negative impacts on me Because it was what I replaced, the drugs and the alcohol with, just recovery.
Speaker 1:Recovery, that's a really good word there was no nothing else going on in my life, but recovery is what he said, which again is. It's just interesting to see those perspectives it's consequences.
Speaker 2:Yes, right so the consequences of my drinking and using um. I never saw a while in addiction, but they came with massive consequences. Consequences of putting one thing before the other has consequences on my family, or just being with my friends has consequences on my recovery. If something has caused negative consequences, be mindful of that and make a change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a random question for you. Earlier in the podcast you spoke about ages. Do you ever still get like cravings or ages, or do you ever find like certain surroundings bring that want of alcohol?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think. Oh. So I was out last night with Liberty X and two of them weren't drinking, which was great, so it meant that I didn't have to sit talking bollocks all night when the rest of them were drunk. But I found myself uneased towards the end, and for no reason.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I've been. They're my best friends. They know more about me than probably my husband does.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, because we grew up together and it wasn't in comes for being around them. It was that a switch happens and I am able to recognize that switch and I was the first person to say I think we need to start heading home. You know, tony and kelly were having a great time and um, and I know jess wanted to get home and kev's training for the marathon and he wanted to get home, but I was the first one to say it. That's powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To be able to say right, it's time to call it a night. Yeah, when you recognise it becomes a bit uncomfortable. Not them, just because if I stay longer I'm putting myself an unnecessary. Oh, I'd love a drink. Why put myself? In that unnecessarily In early recovery.
Speaker 1:I did that all the time and it was painful well, that was something that you said in the last podcast.
Speaker 2:When you went to like certain events and stuff, you'd find yourself ducking out like extremely early yeah just because you didn't want to risk it yeah, was it, was it, was it, that was this podcast the day after I was at that place in hull yes, yes, so it was that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we spoke to you. I think it was like a Saturday morning. I think we spoke to you after you'd just done your show at the arena.
Speaker 2:That's right. And that Friday night I remember I was at the bar in the hotel, yeah, with Jimmy from 911 and the band and I just left, and that was then. That was 18 months ago, yeah, and I've grown so much since then.
Speaker 1:That's what I was going to say. How much have you grown since then?
Speaker 2:Actually, when I think about that time is that my urgency isn't so urgent when I become uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:I recognise that earlier, so that I have time to think about right, okay, do I need to be here? Do I need to sit with these people for much longer? If I have to, okay, let me just get a little break. Ring my sponsor, ring my husband, and then come back If I don't need to be in a situation I recognised it earlier, whereas that particular night it just came on me and then I started to walk away and I think in time, you recognise triggers earlier away. Um, and I think in time, you recognize triggers earlier. I've never for quite some time felt like I need a drink.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a long time I'm talking, maybe a couple of years yeah but I do often say to out loud now I don't keep it in, I say out loud I'd love to have a drink yeah as in you're comfortable in voicing.
Speaker 1:I'd love to have a glass of wine with my red meat.
Speaker 2:Yeah oh, that cocktail looks great, fuck's sake.
Speaker 1:I'm out of this and and.
Speaker 2:Without being able to have that voice yeah I, I probably snap, but being able to say it out loud and now the people around me knowing that, that doesn't mean I'm going to relapse, that's just me appreciating if you're like 18 months ago.
Speaker 1:They would have panicked if you said exactly.
Speaker 2:So people around you evolve yeah and that helps us recover, recovering.
Speaker 2:So in time they become more confident about your recovery, that you're able then to let down the gauntlet and be able to talk about alcohol and recovery without them locking you up yeah, locking you up basically yeah, because at the beginning of recovery, you know, like, like my bandmates as well and my husband, like they wanted to lock me away and make sure I was all right and and and I hated that feeling. But what the what did I expect? I had just been for years unavailable, lying, deceiving you know um, hiding my addictions. What did I expect that was going to happen? When I came out it's the big bad world. They weren't all going to want to see me free reign. Thank god they didn't. Um. So that's to be expected in early recovery.
Speaker 1:It does go in time that, interestingly enough, when we did speak to 18 months ago, when I was saying earlier about when someone hits recovery, you think that's them sorted now, thinking back to that time when I did first speak to you, I was like, oh, she's sorted now, but it realistically, now I'm looking back, it's like 18 months isn't as long as it. It kind of felt at that time.
Speaker 1:It is still very new and I imagine that people were treading on eggshells a little bit around you when people wouldn't want to maybe drink around you, in case that was a trigger and things like that, and you know and with time there's no like.
Speaker 2:Do you know what? There wasn't a point where, with like with the Kelly and Jess, where they said is it okay for drink in front of you? That that conversation never happened it just evolved, right. Yeah, yeah, it's natural yeah, I think also I surround myself with people that know me, People who are positive for my life. Now, it used to be the opposite Whoever was negative. I loved that I feed off their negativity because then it was another reason to drink.
Speaker 2:And so because I surround myself with people who are at ease with me. If I'm at ease with them, they feel at ease and there's no awkwardness. Yeah, and there's no need to ask if they can have a drink in front of me.
Speaker 2:It goes without saying, at the house we have a strict no alcohol in the house. Yeah, even if somebody's coming over. Yeah, that goes without saying to my dearest friends. If I have to explain that that to anybody then they don't understand me. Yeah, as a recovering alcoholic, um and and, and that's the beauty of time, it's just so freeing that I don't need to say it's okay to drink, now it's oh. You know, I find it so freeing that I can be around people in social situations and they say it on the meetings that used to. You know, I find it so freeing that I can be around people in social situations and they say it on the meetings that, used to, you know, astonish me. Like, oh my god, how could I ever be anywhere social without having a drink, you know? I mean it got to a place for me where I couldn't leave the house without having a drink?
Speaker 3:yeah, but how?
Speaker 2:could I be the party without having a drink? And with time and tolerance it does come back. It's amazing yeah and I don't know when it just switched, but it did it just happened.
Speaker 1:Um, in what? In what ways do you think you have changed the most since you began your journey towards that recovery and self-acceptance?
Speaker 2:oh gosh, um, how have I changed? Obviously I mean physically goes without saying, but mentally I can listen to people. Now I'd like to think I'm a good listener. I wouldn't hear a word you were saying unless it concerned me. I would talk over people. I really try not to do that. Still because I can get excited.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm like, well, I'm a podcast host. I want to jump in on things.
Speaker 2:But before it wasn't an excitement of trying to get things out, it was rudeness.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I now appreciate people. Appreciation for what I've got around me has come, and also a sense of understanding that not everyone's okay and that listening is a big part of how I can help people. Yeah, and because then I'm listened to. If I go at it the way I don't want people to come at it like me, we feed off each other right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Human beings. So if I brought this energy to you in this podcast not saying that you would change for me, but undoubtedly the sense of the podcast would go a different way yeah and um. So without we're not really realizing how I've changed, I've changed massively. I feel grown up yeah I feel like I'm still an absolute child right, don't get wrong and an absolute fool, and I'm crazy like I'll still do crazy things that that people don't expect, and I love that I've not lost that yeah but feeling like a grown-up.
Speaker 1:Being able to have a conversation is so good yeah, I always wonder when I'm gonna feel like a grown-up too, if I always thought like when I was younger, so when I'm 18 I'll feel like a grown-up too. I always thought when I was younger, when I'm 18, I'll feel like a grown-up, then it was maybe when I'm 21, then I got 20, maybe when I'm 30. Now I realise I'm just in this constant state of feeling about. I don't feel like I've felt any difference since I was about 23, 24 really.
Speaker 2:I do believe that that's the same for me in a way. I still feel like I, but knowledge is a good thing. Knowledge is power and it definitely makes me feel more adult, but in my mind, I want to do everything that I did as a 24-year-old. Yeah, I know, yeah, literally.
Speaker 1:I was walking the dog not so long ago and this kid's chain had come off his bike and he said to me he went. Mr, can you help me with that?
Speaker 1:I went, Mr and suddenly I was like I am the mister. It's like when you're in situations, even here at work, sometimes it's like I need a, I need an adult to help and it's like I am the adult. You know those sort of things where you realize it's like hang on, this is where it comes down to. I have to deal with this now yeah I think.
Speaker 1:Realizing that, though, and looking around at everyone else's, I'm like, if I'm feeling like this, everyone else is too, and for me, it was no more apparent when we went through lockdown, and I was looking at the politicians as if they are the answers and I was like, nope, they ain't got a clue either and then I realized nobody knows nobody, everyone's just making it up as we go along, and there was something about that that was quite freeing in a way to understand everybody is totally winging it, that's.
Speaker 1:That's what I mean. That's realising that everyone's making this up as they go along In pretty much life right.
Speaker 2:I mean politicians are definitely winging it, and I mean, I winged it all my life. Yeah, I don't prepare for things.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Because it's a waste of time and energy, Because you never know what's going to be presented Like. Obviously, if I a waste of time and energy because you never know what's going to be presented like.
Speaker 3:Obviously if I'm doing a big show I'll rehearse.
Speaker 2:Yes, don't get me wrong, but like things like this, I just don't get wound up about it, and that's, and that's what age has given me yeah yeah, whereas I would have, like you know, in the past got like all the questions in advance and went through them and and and oh my god, if you're not gonna ask me that, whereas I think last time we had the discussion that I don't want to know what the questions are well, it's the same.
Speaker 1:Like obviously my producer will prepare everything to to a fine detail, and I'm just like lady daddy does sit in the chair and I'm like, hey, how's it going? And then we just, we just talk yeah, and that that's it really. I mean, you know, I will say all of this is uh that's why you're nominated for an award. Well, Well, it's a conversation.
Speaker 2:That's exactly it. And how hard is it to speak with people.
Speaker 1:I think if you can speak with people, you're absolutely fine.
Speaker 2:I listen to podcasts and my favourite ones are conversations. Yes, if it feels at all awkward or like right number three, I switch off Because in my mind, someone's preparing something.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And whilst, yes, you have something in front, of you that gives you topics of conversation. Yeah, my prompts, because otherwise we'll literally just talk about one thing it could go anywhere.
Speaker 1:This is to keep me on topic, basically to keep me on track about going into everything.
Speaker 2:And me as well, because I'll literally stay on one topic, the whole time as well. It is a conversation absolutely and listeners can feel that yeah, absolutely and tune into that and that's why you're up for a nomination. Yeah, because this is true. This is real conversations. It's a real conversation.
Speaker 1:It's people's lives as well, isn't it, then, much like yourself coming here and telling us about this? This is what we're here to do is to talk about you and your life that's the joy of it. No, well, thank you, um, I guess. Finally, what is next? You know, we know, that you've been previously. Well, you previously brought a self-help book on uh menopause and you recently stated you I know I'm open about my story, but there are always stories behind the story nice are we seeing?
Speaker 2:I was thrilled with that quote. It was a good one.
Speaker 1:It was a good one are we seeing another book in the works and are you going to see us again in another 18 months, maybe?
Speaker 2:Maybe so the process of the first book was that I wrote a couple of chapters before it went out to publishers and then I got a ghostwriter because, I'm not a writer as such.
Speaker 2:And so I'm at that beginning process and I already wrote about a chapter and a half last year process, and I already wrote about a chapter and a half last year and um, and then I realized, going through some of my notes, um, in the priory that I had I had I've almost got a chapter there. Um, whether it's just about addiction or whether it might be a sense of autobiography, because I'm, I think I qualify old enough as one I I always thought, you know, I don't understand these young men stepping out all the time.
Speaker 1:Justin Bieber at 18 with an autobiography. I was like what? I don't get that at all. How is this happening?
Speaker 2:No, I don't get that at all. I've got to admit I'd like to think I've got enough life experiences to talk about quite a bit. You know, growing up in Gateshead, being in early pop culture, what that really looked like. There's lots of stories behind the stories, but whether it's everything or just addiction, we don't know yet. But in the early stages I've got a few chapters written. I know what way I'd like it to go, but it could be something else. So that's where I'm at. It's not a quick process.
Speaker 1:And the.
Speaker 2:Thing about releasing books is that it isn't something that's like a massive lucrative deal. It's something to focus on. It's not much of a payout. People don't don't do books because they're going to be millionaires, unless like you. You know, I don't know, I can't even think well, they were not really well you.
Speaker 3:There's a controversial one, I know Not anymore.
Speaker 2:But yeah, exactly, it is for one. What comes with publishing a book about the topics that you've, you know, chose to raise.
Speaker 1:It's a form of therapy for me and also it's another way of keeping you relevant yeah and a talking point and actually talking about stuff that matters yeah, yeah, and I think people are so interested in your story around addiction, and it goes with, I think, because you've been so open about it as well, I guess it's a. It's a big thing that I suppose people are following you for as well. Do you know, since you've been open about your sobriety I think that's the interesting thing when you talked about the, the shame that you felt because of it. If anything, it's something that people absolutely love you for. Do you know? It's people that, like I said, evidenced in the downloads of the episode, of your episode last time that we spoke people really like to hear your insights on on addiction and where you've come from, so I think, a book around that, but it's again. That is your life, though, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I think, an autobiography would be be a wonderful. It'd be a wonderful read at christmas time, wouldn't?
Speaker 2:it when you get the obligatory autobiography?
Speaker 3:yeah, maybe after christmas presents, when everyone's feeling worse for where?
Speaker 2:like you're very um but yeah no, thank you very much.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that and, lastly, I've just got my ten questions that I asked. I asked you this last time.
Speaker 3:I want to see if your answers have changed oh gosh, you won't even remember what your answers were. Last time too, I won't remember, so you won't know my memory's gone.
Speaker 1:No, no what's your favourite word? Were these asked last time? They said last time yeah what did?
Speaker 2:do you know what? I have no idea what's my favorite word? Oh no, my face, babe. Least favorite word I can't something that excites you those are two words, weren't they something that excites me um Chan and Tatum.
Speaker 1:Something that doesn't excite you.
Speaker 2:Politics.
Speaker 1:Tell me a sound or noise that you love.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh, my watch beeping that. I've got that. I've done my work, my working out on time. What sound or noise do you hear? The washing machine or the dishwasher being done? What's your favourite curse word?
Speaker 1:Fuck. What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
Speaker 2:I mean actresses kind of lend themselves to this, so I would say actress.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:But if it was, would say actress Okay, but if it was just say actress.
Speaker 1:Okay, what profession would you not like to do?
Speaker 2:Politics.
Speaker 1:And then, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?
Speaker 2:Thank fuck, you got here.
Speaker 1:Michelle, thank you so much for coming on the Believing People podcast. As always, you've been an absolute delight. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I need to know what I said last time we'll find it won't, we'll get the cliff.
Speaker 1:Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Thank you god, thank you for having me and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believing people podcast, then please check out our other episodes and hit that subscribe button. You can also find clips, outtakes and extras from this series on facebook, instagram, twitter and youtube at cgl hull. That's at cgl hull. We're on apple music, spotify, google and youtube music, so please like and subscribe to be notified about new episodes. You can also search for believing people podcast on your favorite listening device and, if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.
