Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
2024 British Podcast Award Winner & Radio Academy Award Nominated Podcast
Believe in People explores addiction, recovery and stigma with different people.
If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction then this podcast can help.
Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma
#42 - Kirsty: Escaping Abuse, Overcoming Addiction, Building Self-Worth & Paying Her Lived Experience Forward
WARNING: This episode contains discussions of sexual assault including graphic descriptions of violence, trauma & abuse
Matt explores Kirsty's journey through amphetamine addiction and the challenges of navigating complex relationships. Kirsty shares her experiences with substance misuse and how it shaped her life, reflecting on her upbringing and family dynamics.
Kirsty courageously shares the weight of her previous relationships, shedding light on the impact of exploitation and multiple abusive partners who brought her to arrest and then reaching out for help. Kirsty delves into the psychological effects of trauma bonding, vividly illustrated through her first-hand experiences.
Kirsty's narrative is punctuated by victories, including marking her six-year sobriety milestone and embracing her role as a valued DWP Peer Mentor for the UK's leading third sector provider of drug and alcohol services, Change Grow Live.
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We'd like to extend our heartfelt thanks to Christopher Tait of the band Belle Ghoul & Electric Six for allowing us to use the track Jonathan Tortoise. Thank you, Chris, for being a part of this journey with us.
This is a renewed original recording. Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast. My name is Matthew Butler and I am your host, or, as I like to say, your official sayer. Today I have with me Kersti. We explore unfit of contradiction and the challenges of navigating complex relationships. Kersti shares her experiences with subsist misuse and how it shaped her life, reflecting on her upbringing and family dynamics. Kersti courageously shares the weight of her previous relationships, shed the light and impacts of exploitation and multiple abusive partners who brought her to a rest and then reaching out for help. Kersti's narrative is punctuated by victories, including marking her six year sobriety milestone and embracing her role as a valued DWP peer mentor for the UK's leading third sector provider of drug and alcohol services, changegrow Live. Kersti, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Can you tell me a little bit about yourself and what brings you to the chair?
Speaker 2:Well, I've just recently reached the six year mark for being abstinent.
Speaker 1:Congratulations. Thank you. So six years is a long time of abstinence obviously needs to be celebrated. What was your drug of choice? What was the one that you turned to the most?
Speaker 2:There was quite a few, but the main one was unfit of mean speed.
Speaker 1:How old was you when you first started taking unfit of mean?
Speaker 2:I think I started dabbling it, I guess, when I was about 16.
Speaker 1:That's quite a common time for people to start dabbling on fens. Did you do anything before then? Was you introduced to alcohol at an early age than that?
Speaker 2:I suppose I used to drink alcohol when I was younger. Yeah, then smoking a bit of weed.
Speaker 1:It does. I think at that age there's almost like this you're in this really experimental stage in life out here. So if I think about myself, I started with alcohol very young. I think I first started drinking with friends when I must have been about 13. And then with amphetamines. It's not something that I ever partook in, but I noticed a lot of my friends started to take it around that age of 15, 16 and that was that progression of let's try and take bigger risks. Was there any elements of peer pressure for you with amphetamines? Because I experienced that as a kid, the peer pressure to take amphetamines. I just obviously didn't start taking it myself, but did you experience that?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't so much say the peer pressure, but you try something, don't you? Yeah, you get a buzz from it, and then you just go on to try other stuff.
Speaker 1:What did you like about?
Speaker 2:it. What did I like about it? The buzz, the buzz, the way it just yeah, just the buzz it gave me.
Speaker 1:For someone who's never taken amphetamines. How would you describe the feeling of taking amphetamines to that person?
Speaker 2:You just feel high, you just feel you're active, you just make you busy At the time, you think you get stuff done but you don't actually get anything done.
Speaker 1:When did you realise that it had taken over for dependency? Because obviously, if you started taking this at 16, much older now than that when did you realise that you actually had a dependency to some?
Speaker 2:certain friends. I didn't really, sir, although I tried it when I was 16, I then went on to other stuff and there was other stuff that I was trying. I didn't actually bother that much with amphetamine till a little bit later on, probably about 18, 19, that's when I started using it.
Speaker 1:What was the other stuff after the amphetamines?
Speaker 2:So I was taking pills, those people that I knew I don't know if you've heard of, like damps, that and glue have I?
Speaker 1:obviously heard of glue, yet yeah, just try it. Actually, maybe I think someone else has mentioned that before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just trying stuff like that and just whatever you could get a buzz out of.
Speaker 1:Tell me a little bit about, I suppose, family life and stuff growing up, Because as far as amphetamine, when we spoke in the past you seem to have quite a strong family background.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sir, I was brought up with. Both my parents come from a really nice home, nice big house. I've got seven brothers and sisters. Really nice home life. Dad always worked. My mum was a housewife. My parents was quite strict, always tea on the table at six o'clock. My dad had come in from work at six. Just, it was quite regimental and it had to be probably because there were so many of us. But yeah, we had a nice life, went on holidays so many times a year because we had like toro, caravan and stuff. Yeah, I'd say I had quite a nice life.
Speaker 1:So it's interesting, I think, the reason why I ask, a lot of people who go through substance misuse sometimes talk about adverse childhood experiences where their childhood was maybe quite traumatic and they found comfort in using substances later in life. But I think one of the things I always find interesting about your conversation is that you always talk really positively about your parents and about your home life, and so it's kind of, I guess, really it's interesting what brought on that substance misuse and that full seeking behaviour in your own personal life to want to do that? Did you maybe find that, being one of having seven brothers and sisters, did you feel like you maybe didn't, was acting out or anything? Where did it come from?
Speaker 2:I mean to be honest, when I was a kid, I always did feel like a little bit left out, although I wasn't. I just always felt like I was and I was not jealous of my brothers and sisters, but I always felt like they got more than what I did, Although they didn't and looking back now I know that they didn't but it was more probably because of the attention that I was obviously getting elsewhere, Because you're not the youngest, are you no?
Speaker 1:So you're kind of lost in the shuffle of the middle of those.
Speaker 2:Yes, I was the oldest girl but I was always like I was the one that was cheeky, I was the one that had been getting grounded all the time because I was just a bit of a pain. But no, I'd say it was more like the people that I was hanging around with and the people I was socialising and stuff with, because I was possibly not having healthy relationships and just not knowing what healthy friendships and healthy relationships were.
Speaker 1:Tell me a little bit more about what healthy relationships, or unhealthy relationships that you had. How well does it feel when you experience your first unhealthy relationship?
Speaker 2:I wouldn't even say it was a really. I mean, I started smoking when I was quite young and probably one of my earliest memories of smoking would be there was an older boy and he used to take me to somewhere quite near where I lived and he used to give me six in exchange for doing stuff.
Speaker 1:Sexual. Yeah, okay, so tell me a little bit more about that. How did that make you feel? Did that feel normal to you At the?
Speaker 2:time.
Speaker 1:Sexual favours for cigarettes and.
Speaker 2:I suppose at the time I didn't see it like that. It's only been since I've been clean that I've actually looked back at my life and Because I never understood where it came from, my parents would always say I don't understand why you're an addiction, you've had a nice life, why? And I didn't understand it. But it's only been, I'd say, since I've been clean, since I've been working, since I've been a professional, that I've actually looked back at my life and thought this is actually where it stemmed from. And yeah, probably being exploited, just being out and rebelling against having to be in a certain time and stuff, but yeah, just being exploited from quite a young age.
Speaker 1:I think one of the things that we've talked a lot about on this podcast is trauma and normalising trauma. And I think, when we have said this before, but when we experience something traumatic, we don't realise it's traumatic and so much later on when we look back and go hang on, that's not normal, that's not right and I think in your case, looking at what was happening there in terms of performing, you know, sexual favours for things like cigarettes, you're going to look back at that now and think, well, that's not right and if you normalise that, I have a feeling that that's going to be something that is. It was a reoccurring thing for you when you moved into substance misuse. Did you find that later on, in terms of your activity around substances, that you continued to perform sexual favours for drugs and more, I suppose, more expensive things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't suppose it was even. It wasn't even just about drugs. Like you know, there was this, that boy that I'm talking about, who was older than me, and I can't even remember how old I was. I just know that I was that young that some of that sticks in my head is when, you know, I did, like, obviously, have my pants and stuff down that one of the comments that I'd made was well, you're not very hairy, are you? You know, you want, you haven't got many ears. And I look back now and I think, well, actually that's because I was a child and you know I was probably just starting puberty or whatever.
Speaker 2:But then, moving on from then, there was, you know, there was other people, there was, there was men, like when I was, I was underage, I was a child. And you look back now, don't you?
Speaker 3:And you realise that, then people you know, pedophiles, are being exploited.
Speaker 2:But I never saw it like that. I just, you know, it was just an unhealthy relationship. You know this. There was one particular guy who was a you know he was a lot, lot older than me. He was a fully grown man, you know, married, with kids and stuff, and you know I was, I was that young I used to have to be in half-past-eight on a night and he'd meet me and you know, we'd do stuff and it wasn't. It wasn't a healthy relationship and like at the time, like I loved this person, you know. So, feeling heartbroken, like at quite a young age, when you're not even old enough and you shouldn't even be in relationships like that, just led on to to more.
Speaker 1:I think that's one of the things that I've spoken about with, with my niece, who was who's 14 now and it's awful I reference to have these conversations, but you know, I don't I don't believe these conversations are necessary and I've said to her, like if, if you ever meet a boy who's older and they talk about you being mature for your age and stuff like that, I said you need to understand that you're likely there's an attempt at grooming there. Because that's what that's what groomers will do.
Speaker 1:They will take advantage of young girls by. And here's the thing when you, when I was young, if someone told me, oh, you're mature for your age, I take that as a massive compliment. Do you know? I think girls even more, so girls would probably take that even more as a compliment. Aside, you know you're really mature for your age because that's the thing. When you're a child, you think in a strange way, you always want to be older than you are until you're old enough. And then it's this paradoxical thing where you know teenage girls want to be older and then, when they're older, they're using products to make themselves look younger. Do you know what I mean? That's the paradox, but I was never like that.
Speaker 2:So when I was a kid, like I was a tomboy, I want I dressed like a boy, like I had short haircuts, you know, and I was quite a late developer, so I didn't really, I didn't even really have any like boobs until I was probably about I don't know 14, 15. Like I wasn't. It wasn't like I was. I was a young girl and I'd be wearing short skates or anything you know, even if I was, it wouldn't have mattered.
Speaker 1:But I want to dress like a boy. I didn't feel like you was advertising yourself to older people to you know for them to try and exploit or take it. Take it yeah.
Speaker 2:I would. I'd wear tracky bottoms, I'd wear trainers, I'd wear shorts, and you know I played football and all that kind of stuff. But I want I never put myself out there like wanting this male attention. I don't, I was vulnerable, wasn't I?
Speaker 1:I was going to say so from your point of view, why? Why do you think it happened then? Because, from what we've discussed as well, that you know, on and off this podcast and around exploitation, is that there was a pattern to it. And that you know you felt sometimes you was almost targeted because of it.
Speaker 2:Because, probably because I didn't know what a healthy relationship was and when when you feel that when you feel like someone, you feel like someone loves you, when you'll love them, even though actually you're looking back and it wasn't but you get. You get some kind of comfort from that dirty. When it makes you feel, makes you feel like you special, it makes you feel wanted.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's always one of the things that I found most upsetting or distressing about. You know, abusive relationships and people are experiencing multiple abusive relationships is that if you start, or if you have a very early abusive relationship, then you could experience another abusive relationship after that, but because it's not as bad as the first one, you will somehow think that that is a healthy relationship. Or, you know, because you compare it to something that was much worse.
Speaker 1:But, then you talk to people, you talk to women about the relationships they've experienced, and it's I think it's heartbreaking that going back to the idea of normalizing behaviors and these relationships as things that are again normal, when, when they just aren't. And you know, you've said about this being kind of a pattern. How did it go then, from obviously being a young girl and experiencing exploitation into adulthood?
Speaker 2:because I know something that would discuses people and then in 10, 16, you know, Got my first like jobs and stuff like that and you know I left her. I left her because I thought I was older and at 16 as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was yeah, and I can remember I'd started, I'd had a couple of little jobs which didn't really work out, but then I'd started this one particular job and I'd had gone home that day and said to my mom, and I'm, I'm going out of town to a party tonight, and she was like no, you know, said yeah, I am. No, you're not. Yeah, I am, I'm 16. I can do what I want. Hmm. Well, if that's what you think, then pack your bags and leave. Yeah, I packed my bag on the left.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and she wouldn't have meant that your mother I'm sure she didn't she just, you know, you've just called that bluff.
Speaker 2:I'm living my house and you follow my rules if you don't follow the rules. You know there's the dog. You know, see if you can be on your own. And you know like she'd say to me You're not an adult, you're 16. Hmm, um, but I did. I packed my bag.
Speaker 1:I'm a bag and I went. Where did you go live?
Speaker 2:I said either everywhere, um Mainly with men. Hmm mainly with older people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's kind of where the drugs and the parties and all that kind of stuff Started again, it's the exploitation of a young girl at 16, left home and in a way You'll start to rely on these men in somewhere over that big, you know, financially or emotionally. Because one is the thing I think when people are older than you, you just naturally some that they're more mature than you or they can be more trusted than you because they've got, you know, age. On this side I mean now it's a little bit different. You know that, the age right now, but when you're a young person, you, when I was at 16, I thought people at 21, at the lights, all figured out. I thought by 21 my life would be sorted, you know.
Speaker 1:And it's ironic that now, at 32, I look back at 21. I think 21 you was, you was still a child, you know. I mean you hadn't really developed mentally between 16 to 21. I don't think I really developed mentally until I hit about 26, 27 and then some sort of sort of click to me. Well, I was a little bit more accountable for who I was and my actions and things out. But you do when you're younger, I think you rely on, on people who are older and and you just assume that they're gonna be more trustworthy, that they can have more knowledge or that they can help keep you safe and somewhere, and I think For a young girl as well, I imagine that that sort of thing is doubled as well, really. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm also so. Did you, did you settle down when many of these men did any of these relationships?
Speaker 2:The one, even really relationships. I, you know, looking back now I can see that I was just, I was just being exploited, and you know, by People that were higher up than me in like jobs and stuff like that you know they would. Yeah, they're just, I was, I was exploited and I eventually when you say exploited, do you mean sexually, emotionally?
Speaker 2:I was, just because I was vulnerable, like I'd just be get you know, I'd I'd be feeling, I'd be feeling sad because one person won't treat me very nice, or you know I was upset or whatever, and just yeah, I, just I, just the next, the next one had come along and it kind of you know, you know You're not being treated right, you don't deserve to be treated like this, let me. Let me treat you better.
Speaker 1:That's what we're saying. And if they treat you just a little bit better, you're thinking, you're something, thinking I've hit the lorry here this one's gonna be much better. This relationship is gonna be much better than the Mars, because it's just it's. All it takes is for that next relationship To just be a little bit better. And I think that's when you hear these stories about you know these these, you know domestic abusive relationships and things like that, and that's the part that I think, I think always upsets me in that sense.
Speaker 1:But when you, when you're staying with these people, are you paying rent or is there an exchange in there, if like? Because, you're having sex with them, they're paying bills and stuff like how did the workout? Because when you say about being exploited, obviously there is that generally you're younger, they're older, but but how? What was it that was being exploit?
Speaker 2:just parties, drugs, alcohol, sex, you know yeah exploited in that way and sometimes probably doing things that I didn't want to do. And then, yeah, I, yeah, just staying, staying from place to place. And then I moved. I moved in with a girl and I moved into a flat with another girl. Moves probably round about. I think she was round about my age, maybe a little bit older. Hmm, I moved into a flat with her. I mean years ago. It was really easy to get a flat one.
Speaker 2:He just approached her landlord and you know somebody, they just let you move in now.
Speaker 1:There's like credit checks and you know.
Speaker 2:And you know I'd lived in a few flats. I'd just I'd live there for so long, Not pay any rent you know, get evicted and just moving to the next one yeah.
Speaker 1:So when you say you was doing things that you didn't want to do, when you look back at that now as an adult, why was you doing them? Don't know You've ever thought about it, do you know? I've never really not wanted to think about, I guess is another thing.
Speaker 2:Probably because they showed me attention, you know, and I just, I thought at the time, I was thinking you know, I'm 16, I can do what I want, or I'm 17, I can do what I want. You know, at the time I'd say, I thought I was, I thought I was the one In control, I thought it was me getting what I wanted out them people it's. It's only now looking back that I realized that you know.
Speaker 1:There was taking advantage of me, yeah and that's what it seems to come down to, I think, really, for if you kind of Try and tie it on together, you know, being being a sort of middle child from a big family and that lack of attention, yeah, and now it's probably what it was, because I was quite needy as a child.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my mom and dad will tell you like I was. I was just needy, I was, I was quite ungrateful, I just, you know, it'd come to Christmas day and I'd look at everybody else's pile of presents and kind of say, like where's man is that? But I'd have the same as everyone else. It's just that I was getting older so I'd be getting smaller piles. You know I'd be getting jewelry. You know my younger siblings would be still getting the toys and yeah.
Speaker 1:You don't look at the monetary value when you get a little bit older. The pile then piles of toys and Presences you get all they get smaller, but they're probably cost more money as well.
Speaker 2:I was just ungrateful and I just thought, like you know, you care about everybody else more than they care about me. But that's just. That's just how I was as a child. And you know it. Maybe it was because there was a lot of us and was you know there was you know my mom and dad had had all of us to give their attention to, didn't they, sir? Maybe that's why I acted out quite a lot and, you know, always in trouble at school and yeah.
Speaker 2:I just I, just I just thought. I just thought I want as loved as everyone else. Yeah but I was. It was just I want getting attention, that I probably needed, yeah, at the time when it must be hard as well.
Speaker 1:Do you know? So I think, for even look at this as from a parent perspective, you know, when you've got a big family, because there is that element of and it's like you know, see where I feel like I'm doing multiple jobs at the moment, I'm giving a hundred percent to four different jobs, which means you only given 25 percent to each each role, really, and it's it's similar with kids. You've got four children. You give a hundred percent. Are you really only giving 25 percent to each kid?
Speaker 2:Yeah, do you know I mean it's that hundred percent. It has to be split somewhere doesn't it now, because I'm a mum yeah, yeah so you know you do love your kids all the same, don't you just that you know. Every one of them is different, so the attention that you give each child is different to the next child.
Speaker 1:How old was you when you became a mum?
Speaker 2:I was. I came a mum in 2001, so I was a Mumfuff being 21, so I was quite young.
Speaker 1:I was still in primary school in 2001. Yeah, I feel like that. But, that's, that's young. That's still young to be having to know, obviously, your first child I tell me a little bit about, because you know still that's it's not far off the edge of still going through all this, that you're going through the substance, misuse, that party lifestyle. Tell me a little bit about the circumstances around again.
Speaker 2:Somebody I met, somebody I met at work what older than me and and in fact I'll say this like I'd had sex with his brother, and then I can always remember he'd said to me at work, my brother's had you know, so it's Martin kind of thing, yeah, and I did how did that make you feel when he said that? At the time, I don't know probably Wanted special. You know I was young. That's what I mean, because I think it was all day when you say that it sounds.
Speaker 1:That sounds awful. My brother's had, you know, it's my turn that and it sounds awful. But there's something about basic what we're talking about so far, which I felt like you would have taken that as a compliment, as being wanted and maybe even enjoying a comment like that being passed your way, yeah, which to me obviously that sounds awful. But I think for you and what you've gone for at this point, that's normal behavior, that's a normal way to speak, to do you know?
Speaker 2:20 year old Kesty or whatever you was, it was yeah, how does that make you feel, though?
Speaker 1:when you think about that, and the way you was spoken to about then and the way you Just try as a bit, of, a bit of an object, almost you know what I mean and that's what it, that's what it sounds like.
Speaker 2:Looking back now like yeah, made me feel shit, hmm, made me feel shit, but I can't, you know, I can't change that, I can't do anything about it? Again, it was, it was the lifestyle, it was, it was the drugs, it was. You know Some, it was all there. We had a car. Yeah, it just just was one of them. So how?
Speaker 1:did that relationship go then obviously you had a. Yeah, you're a child person how to tell me a little bit about how it was very abusive.
Speaker 2:There was a lot of domestic abuse involved and a lot of drug abuse.
Speaker 1:From both of you. Was that? What was it?
Speaker 2:I'd say so, yeah, but Me being me being 18 and being 10 years older, and you know the way it progressed as it did, you know he shouldn't have. He shouldn't have been treating me the way that he was treating me and Really, really highly abusive, would put me down, would bodyshape me and Would come into the place where I worked. He would spit in my face. It would spit in my face in front of my younger brothers and sisters to the point where my mum and dad stopped my younger siblings coming to my house because they didn't want them around that. But for a long time, like I hid that from, I hid that from my parents.
Speaker 2:He had it from my family, but then it just got to a point where you know I couldn't add it anymore and you know People were seeing it, neighbors were seeing it. No, like nobody ever reported things, people saw things, people had things and you know the fact that he was, he was coming into my place of work and stuff and you know spitting in my face and stuff like that. Like not nobody ever, not one person ever, reported anything.
Speaker 1:There's something about that as well. If you think about even how we've progressed, is just a society in the last 20 years? I mean, you got used that the toilet and, as during this, opposed to like if you feel Unsafe, you know, speak to someone can help you, and things like this. There's loads of things around that now.
Speaker 2:I didn't know anything about Domestic use. You know, even like growing up and stuff like that, I know like being exploited, there was nothing. There was nothing on social media. You know we didn't get them talks from our parents about Healthy relationships and being exploited or being used by men and you know your body's your own and you know Don't let anybody come near you and stuff it won't. We was just told like Beware of the man down the street. You know the we had all looking one at.
Speaker 1:you know that was probably quite innocent, and you know the incomparison to what we just got warned of you know strange, you danger.
Speaker 2:I don't speak to strangers that speak to them because there could be you know the bad man and stuff. I won't never warned about. Things like that I won't talk to about, even like domestic abuse and stuff like I didn't. I didn't know what domestic abuse was. I'd never been brought up around my parents. I'd never, never read my parents argue, never. They kept evict the shelters from all that. If they obviously did, because you know they'd have had the struggles and stuff. But I was just never subjected to anything like that growing up.
Speaker 1:You know it was so was it like to be on the receiving end of it then? Because you can, you know, yes, now we're. There's a lot more messages out there around healthy relationships and what healthy relationship should look like, but back then, the only thing you can really model what is a healthy relationship or what isn't a healthy relationship Is your parents, like you know, and their relationships and kind of thinking well, you know, my mum and dad are like this, so that's what a normal relationship looks like. That's kind of what we do. So what was it like to be on the receiving end of something which, by the sounds of it, is a complete polar opposite to what your parents was?
Speaker 2:I hid it.
Speaker 1:Hmm, why did you hide it Was it was? Did you just know it was wrong and you did you feel ashamed about it? What was the reason for hiding it?
Speaker 2:I suppose because growing up I always, I Always imagined like you grow up, you meet someone, you get, you know, you have kids and you get married and you have this happy ever after. So I suppose I wanted I wanted people to think that that's what I had, because I felt ashamed that I didn't have that so I hid it for a long time.
Speaker 1:Hmm, how long did that relationship last?
Speaker 2:Seven and a half years. Yeah, and it was you know.
Speaker 1:How do you? How, because for someone who's been so openly abusive in front of family and it's going to your place of work and be abusive, I Drift, I think, how, like, what was that like for your child? I Mean like, how did you, you know, protect or shield them from it? Could you even protect or shield them?
Speaker 2:probably, probably not. No, I mean, there was, there was. There was quite young. When we split up, I think my youngest was four and the eldest was five. And no, I didn't, I didn't shield them from it. I didn't know how to shield them from it. I was, I just I just used. You know, we had a huge drugs motor function.
Speaker 1:Hmm.
Speaker 2:That's, that's all I did. Yeah, I didn't, I Couldn't. I just couldn't get by. I just couldn't get by every day without without using it's. I just used every day and just got on with it and functioned almost like a robot. You know, and the way it was at home. The more I was I would put into work, the more I would be at work.
Speaker 1:Was there an element of? I mean, I guess well, firstly was, you would have had these conversations with your children by now. I'm sure you know they're not that much older, but have they said anything about what it was like for them as children growing up in that house, where that was happening?
Speaker 2:I Mean, that's kind of their trauma and I'm not a lot, you know it's, that's not my story to tell, but yeah, there's.
Speaker 1:There's been aware of it. They were, there was, it was, they were at the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah they've. They were subjected to that trauma too.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, there was so, being in domestically abusive relationship, being in addiction, and what was that like for you?
Speaker 2:It was horrendous, it was horrible and you know, if my whole life was a mess and my mental health was Like really bad, like I just lost all my confidence and I just I just literally cry on a daily basis and didn't have any confidence to just felt worthless, and I suppose some of that probably comes from while I was with him. Um it, you know it be, telling me that I was sleeping with my friends and it refer to my friends as fit and just stupid things like Women being on the TV like physically made me feel sick because of the fact he used to be saying, you know, you know, look at the tits on air. And just just being like vulgar about them.
Speaker 1:I was done to show like it is what you're, not his. Do you know your friends are more attractive, yeah yeah it's doing a way to really manipulate you, isn't it, and make you feel much, much less Wavy of you own self-love and care, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So you know, I stopped, I isolated myself. I stopped my friends coming around and even just like Watching the TV and stuff, like if somebody was good looking on TV I would literally just feel physically sick. Yeah, and that was it whilst whilst I was with him, but then also going on to like a new relationship that just stayed with me like I couldn't, you know I'd cause an argument just because we'd be sat watching something on the TV and somebody nice had been on the TV or Would you know, would we'd be at the shops or whatever. Do I? Just being in a car and passing somebody that was nice and Seeing my partner look like I'd just be just physically make me feel sick and that that's.
Speaker 1:I think that's the thing, isn't it? When we talk about like Well, like social media and everything today, people constantly comparing themselves. I honestly think comparing yourself to others is the one thing that leads to really low mental health, whether that be on social media. When you scroll through Instagram, you've seen the life that other people have and Doing that constantly, not even on social media, but in real life.
Speaker 2:That's something that I imagine really Affected you long term it did because I just I didn't want to go out. You know there'd be there'd be like social situations where I want to go just for that fear of other people looking nice.
Speaker 1:Comparing yourself, yeah sounds.
Speaker 2:Sounds like really sad now, don't it? But it does. And Because he always told me that I was fat and stuff, like I just felt physically like disgusted with myself all the time, which, you know, taking speed does make you lose weight, don't it? And but I would. I was taking it to the point where I was that thin like just getting a bath, like it hurt me because you know, like you cox it, you burn on your own yeah yeah, yeah, it on the bottom of the bathroom stuff when I was in the bath, because I was that thin and but I just saw myself as fat.
Speaker 1:Did that lead to? Any is only eating disorders as well with yourself. Do you know? Was you making which?
Speaker 2:make this off. I didn't eat. No, I just didn't eat. If I, if I was hungry, I'd just I just eat more speed.
Speaker 1:Eat more speed to stop me wanting to replace and replacing food with with amphetamines and yeah you know, the more out, the more I was in addiction and stuff, obviously the more dead.
Speaker 2:And that I got in Like, yeah, the more, the more I was using, the more I couldn't afford it, the more I was. You know, just, my deck was spiraling, I wouldn't open my mail, you know, and then just having like bail if sat the door and stuff like that, and then started like using like doorstep lenders and stuff and yeah, just got in a mess with all that.
Speaker 1:That's it, it's the em. So quickly it can spiral, isn't it? I suppose? And I was talking about like tackling stigma and trying to kind of put yourself in other people's position. One of my colleagues said to me before said you're only two miss paychecks away from being homeless, and that always resonated with me. I thought, you know, it's probably right, if I didn't pay my mortgage for the next two months, if I didn't pay my bills over up next two months, I probably would end up homeless. And you realize the gap between you and people like our street homes that are often ignored. It's a very small gap, yet in our mind. We probably like to compare ourselves more to having more in common with the likes of millionaires and these Celebrities that we see on social media. When it's not the case. We do have more in common.
Speaker 2:I'd been threatened with eviction. You know, from my council property and stuff, because I just want won't pay you.
Speaker 1:I won't pay my rent. Just moving on to the next one, as you said, you don't you know I?
Speaker 2:did. I did that. But then when I had a council house and I was on my own with the kids and stuff like it's a bit different.
Speaker 1:When you've got kids in, I suppose you can't be stopped on.
Speaker 2:Leave as easy as you used to moving, go live somewhere else, but then obviously when I had a family Like it, yeah, changes, everything doesn't yeah the thought of like being kicked out and stuff Won't nice. But you know, luckily I had my family who'd bail me out and but yeah, just yeah, it was just, it was just not nice one, nice at all.
Speaker 1:If you think of all these these years of abuse of substance, misuse of, you know, physical abuse, sexual abuse, what what would you consider now, on reflection, to be that rock bottom moment? What was the worst moment of it where you thought, right, I need to, I need to make some changes?
Speaker 2:That was probably years and years later. Yeah, just, I had. I had my children removed for six weeks and I got placed on my parents, mm-hmm, and luckily, you know, I've had, I had a supportive family. They'd been an incident at my house. Obviously, the police came, I was under the influence and you know, I was arrested and that was. That was probably the lowest point for me what been arrested. Yeah, the look the lowest point in my addiction there's been. There's been a few lower points and yeah tell me one because of the reason.
Speaker 1:The reason why we do this podcast is because I don't think people really Understand what someone with substance misuse and substance dependency go through. I think they see a very surface, very surface level to it, where they may see someone under the influence in town center, do you know, causing some sort of do not public disorder or something, or they'll see homeless people. But I think the reason why we do this podcast is because, to that point, to be it, to be in that state in public, and it yes, there is an element of choice to start using substances. But to be that far into it, to be constantly trying to to cover up these feelings, to be trying to to escape that trauma, people don't necessarily look at homeless people or the person under the influence of public and think what has that person gone through? Tell me about some of these rock bottom moments, what was they like? There's gotta be, you know, I mean, there's gotta be a reason to just continue, because that's the thing. There's got to be a reason to continue that pattern of behavior as well. I.
Speaker 2:Couldn't, I just couldn't stop doing it. I literally I knew, I knew I would fall to pieces if I didn't, if I didn't continue using, because I couldn't function without using. I Couldn't function without using. And you know, even after that relationship ended, I got involved in another relationship that was unhealthy. And then, you know, I went on to have another relationship that should have been healthy because we ended up having a child together. But I didn't know what a healthy relationship was. So I, you know, I didn't. I didn't treat him that well. I didn't treat him that well and I Was using drugs. He was unaware that I was an addict, because, because I'd had it or I'd pretend I was just using on a weekend or whatever. But it became. I just became consumed with it and I needed it. I needed it to get up every day. You know, I needed it, just a function. I needed it to go to work.
Speaker 1:But why? What was it? You know? I mean, we talk about substance misuse and the escape some. What are you escaping from when you think you need it's a function? So it says is that what? It was? Just a trauma, just escaping?
Speaker 2:trauma, just escaping trauma, and just, yeah, I just I just couldn't function without it. There was I, just I don't know, I can't explain it, I just could not function without it. Hmm.
Speaker 2:I just couldn't function. I couldn't get out of bed in the morning, I couldn't get my kids to school on time. I was consumed in with debt. You know there was bills that I want paying. You know I'd had my car taken off me at one point because I didn't have any insurance. And you know I was. I was driving my kids to school. My car got took off because I didn't have any insurance. I was just, I, just, I just couldn't keep up with, I just couldn't keep up with life.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I just couldn't, I couldn't function I think that's it.
Speaker 1:Once you, once you lose sort of grip of it.
Speaker 2:I just lost myself. I just lost myself and, yeah, I just, I just couldn't. I just couldn't cope with life. I Couldn't cope with feeling like a shit parent. I couldn't. I Just couldn't cope and I Didn't. I didn't ask for help because I didn't know there was helping at that time. I didn't. You know, even after I'd come out of the abusive relationship, I didn't know I'd been in an abusive relationship. That's only something I've realized in the last six years. I. Didn't know it was abuse.
Speaker 1:What made you feel like a ship parent?
Speaker 2:Everything, the guilt, the guilt of what my kids witnessed, what I put my kids through. You know the fact that I stayed with someone that was not only cruel to me, but you know he won't. He won't gonna be a good father to my kids, was he, you know? And the the waste that it was to me, the more. The more I would go to work, the more Later I'd come in on the night, so the more I was leaving him to look after my kids when my kids needed me. But I won't thinking about my kids, I was just thinking about myself. I didn't want to go home.
Speaker 2:You know when you're going home and you you're being checked, when somebody's literally Taking your knickers off here to check see if you've been having sex with other people and stuff. I didn't want to be at home. I avoided all that. But then, when, when we did split up, I Was left with the trauma that I'd done to my kids. You know the, even at four and five. You know the be it the behavior and stuff. It was it the behavior that they're lashing out and stuff. You know that all started and I just, I just couldn't deal with it. I couldn't cope with it and Just feeling like a shit man.
Speaker 1:So what you've just Explained, that checking. You're going out to work, coming home, having your partner at the time, checking your knickers to see if you've Cheated on him. Yeah that I Can't even fathom that. That sounds horrendous. That sounds like a Case study where they've come up with like a really worst case scenario of a type of control and abuse. You know it's something that you just wouldn't think that Actually happens, but to experience that yeah, what nice how? How does that make? How does that make you feel?
Speaker 2:Humiliated, embarrassed.
Speaker 1:Do you think that was the aim of it? I?
Speaker 2:Think it was just to belittle me and to degrade me. It was, it was just horrible. It would it would hard in the house and stuff while we was was was in the house.
Speaker 1:What do you know it?
Speaker 2:It had in the attic for hours. It would hard in the attic for hours and then it would pop his head out the hatch.
Speaker 1:But why to hiding for what?
Speaker 2:purpose to see if I was doing anything, to see if I was.
Speaker 1:Cheating the house. Yeah, yeah it wants.
Speaker 2:I mean, it once hid under the cupboard and in a cupboard under the stairs and he was in there for hours. I didn't know was there, but I kept hearing like tapping noises and it was clearly trying to frighten me to the point where I actually left my house and I got my neighbors to come in my house because somebody was in my house, you know, and we found him in the cupboard under the stairs.
Speaker 1:What was his excuse when you found him?
Speaker 2:He didn't have one.
Speaker 1:He didn't have one, jesus Didn't it was this the reason, then, to scare you to the all. My son's a case, trying to make you, make you feel like you go in mad. Yeah, do you know what I mean to start to see that you're the one that's losing a little bit, but then actually having a sound reason to feel it when he's behaving in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah it just. I mean, it's when the when the behavior starts like that. They had it from people, don't they? Everybody used to think I was, you know, it was this great guy. This time you're there, but he won and eventually Is behavior just escalated to the point where it won't. Like I said when he was spitting in my face in front of, like my younger brothers and sisters and stuff, like it's be, if you just escalated and it didn't care, he didn't care what was in front of. You know, when I'm at work it come in and I wait in a shop. At the time They'd come in and just spit at me and then walk back out.
Speaker 1:Hmm you know, it's hard as a Just, generally as a man to you know, even put yourself in that mindset as to why you would Do that, and I think obviously really just shows that a couple of things.
Speaker 1:One Generally sounds like her end. This person, I think, to be fair, going back to what we talked about with With trauma and modeling our relationships after relationships that we've seen, and it doesn't excuse it by any mean, but I wonder what type of life he had. Do you know what I mean? Growing up, I wonder what his, the relationships he was modeling himself after, what was his parents like? What was his story? Because there has to be something there for him to think that that is Okay to do or that it's normal to do. That is do not mean like what, because for someone now Again, someone like myself, you know, to even try and support myself in that position, it's just I Can't do it. I can't ever think of a reason why, and the only thing I can think of is God knows what his life was like growing up to to be able to think that that's the normal, normal behavior to to betray.
Speaker 2:It's not a normal behavior, is it?
Speaker 1:absolutely no, you know.
Speaker 2:But I ended it in the end, the very, the very last, the very time that I ended it like either he used to body, he used to body shame. It to the point where I didn't I didn't want him to see my naked anymore. I just hid away from him, I'd get a bath, I'd locked the door, but then it kicked the door down because I was in the bath.
Speaker 2:Hmm and the door. The door was locked. Why you in the back of the door? You know why we're in the back of the door locked. So the last, the very last time, he kicked the door down while I was in the bathroom and he flicked at me while I was in the bath spot, at me, and At that point I didn't care because I just got out the bath, I had nothing on, and I told him to get up, I told him to get out the house and I was. I literally was at the door naked and I didn't care, you know. And he was, he was body shaming me at that point and I just I didn't care. Hmm.
Speaker 2:I did not care.
Speaker 1:How much courage did it take to do, and how long had the abuse been going on before you decided this is enough?
Speaker 2:years. It's gone on for years and, yeah, I just, I just had enough. I just had enough, I had enough. You know, I've just had enough of him. There was, there was a point where I wasn't working and he was working, he was spending all the money. He'd come home with no wages, you know any. Yeah, he was. We had. We had nothing. We had nothing while I was with him absolutely nothing.
Speaker 1:I think go, can I? I'm a Abusive relationships. From now outside perspective, people often think, oh, why don't you just leave? Why can you leave us Something's that happened? Why did you pull up with what you put up with? And because this is it, I guess this is the one wants to ask. You know, you say it lasted years. Why did it last years? Because I know for well, if I went home and did anything that was remotely abusive to my wife, she'd like right off you go. I should be out there in a heartbeat, and rightly so.
Speaker 1:Because it's just a gradual why do people stay in these relationships? They're from someone who's being you can't them the more.
Speaker 2:The more abusive that relationship gets, the more intense that gets. The more you love them, the more you need them. You can't. You can't be without them, because you're nothing without them.
Speaker 1:Is that what they are portraying on to you, though? They're projecting that that you are nothing without them and that you do need them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's like you used to leave me all the time. Tell me was leaving me and I beg him not to leave me. I beg him not to leave me Because I thought I needed him, because no, always gonna want me. You know what you say to me. You've had two kids. Look at the state. Yeah, you fight, you disgusting. Who's gonna want me? So I felt like I was nothing. I just I just felt worthless. I Felt worthless.
Speaker 1:When did? When you did leave him? When did you realize that All this stuff you'd gone through was was as wrong as it was? When did you realize that I Mean, do you look back at it with like, why did I? Why did I believe him? Why did I think I needed him? Why did I tell myself all this?
Speaker 2:stuff, do you?
Speaker 1:know when did that moment of clarity come, after that relationship of ended of it?
Speaker 2:kind of didn't, but For a long time after we'd split up it was it was stalking me. I would be reporting it to the police. You know it was. It was following me on the school runs and I Changed my kids school and he was still following us.
Speaker 1:It's bizarre that for someone again dream we talk about if someone who was body shaming and telling is worthless enough of writing what. What's the reason for stalking you Do you know? What I mean Is that is that I think it comes to the scare tactic in it. I think it's the possession. I think he's got to a point where he sees you was all like almost like some of his property. Do you know sir?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when, when I did get, when I did get in a new relationship which was with my younger two's dad, he started stalking him as well. And I think it was at that point when he, you know, because he once scared of him and he, you know, he'd jerk it off and say, oh, he's being that again and he's followed me and he was, you know, near my work again or he was behind me and yeah, I just I can't, I can't fathom, I Know that's kind of what I have a lot kind of be here. No, that's the position. I've come to know.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to.
Speaker 1:I've got so many questions, but the question doesn't seem to make sense. And the reason I think, why don't these questions? I suppose because the behavior doesn't make sense. No, none of it ever. But this is the thing I suppose to the, to the perpetrator and to the victim, and and it's Normalized and it does make sense and it's it's just a weed one to try and get your head around from a fair person perspective, looking in on those relationships and and thinking what created that behavior? How did how did that come to be? How did that even happen? But I guess really. So you've gone through all this. What was going on with the substance abuse at this time? Was you still continuing to use?
Speaker 1:Yeah, my did you use substances, more so after the breakup, where? Was your with that at that point.
Speaker 2:Yes, uh, just, yeah, my, my addiction got worse. Um, I was then Just trying, trying to function and, yeah, my addiction did get worse. But because I was secretly using it I Was, I was hard on it from everyone and people, people knew I'd go out and use on a weekend but the thought it was recreational. But then, you know, my, my behavior started to get Not to be normal and you know, I had it, I didn't trust, I didn't trust anybody and I didn't. I just I couldn't, I didn't trust anyone, I didn't trust anyone. You know, I was the.
Speaker 2:I ended up being the one that was kind of like leading a double life you know, being a drug user and hiding it from, from the person that I was with in the end, but then not trusting him and kind of waiting for that, waiting for him to treat me the way that the last person treated me.
Speaker 1:And that's it. It really does have that domino effect on to other elements of your life and to to forever. Because if that's normal to you, you kind of expect in it as well, because not all relationships start off abusive. You know, you hear about a lot of stories where as soon as we got married, it all just hit the, you know, hit the fan. And there's an element of it where I imagine when, after going for what you've gone for, when starting new relationships, almost like there's a little timer on it, like just waiting for it to go south, waiting for it to go wrong, and if, if it doesn't and I know your current partner, you know from what we've spoken about, you know, previously is it sounds like a really genuine and nice man and there must be part of you that either wants to self sabotage that relationship because before, before they do something wrong to you or you just I could, or I'm just thinking they're going to turn at some point.
Speaker 1:Are they going to do something wrong? Because that is all you've ever experienced? I imagine that's what happens. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong on that one, but yeah, with with I'm, I mean I'm quite naive to to amphetamine use in the sense of like, how much was using like? Can you quantify it? When people talk about cannabis use, alcohol use, heroin use, it's quite an easy way to quantify. I'm quite naive to how how much is too much amphetamine really?
Speaker 2:I was probably using. It probably went from I don't know, like an eight per day to a quarter a day, and I wouldn't just go to one dealer because I thought people didn't know that I was an addict. So I wouldn't just use one dealer, I'd use, I'd use a couple of dealers because I didn't want them to know. You know, and I've only, I've only kind of realized that just recently, because obviously I work with people who've got alcohol issues and when they tell me that the Dutch issues won't shop and they use several shops because they don't want that shopkeeper to think they're an alcoholic.
Speaker 2:When actually that the shopkeeper already knows, because they've got that bottle on the counter. You know when they walk through the door, and that was. It was kind of the same thing for me. I didn't think people knew. They did know, didn't they? Because you know.
Speaker 1:Amphetamine's quite a obviously quite a broad, broad term for it. As far as, like stimulants go, was there a particular substance that you was using with the amphetamines or I would, I'd smoke weed and I'd take that. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but ones, ones are downer and ones are not up here. But I never felt, I never felt normal until I'd had both.
Speaker 1:Because like ritalin to damp-phetamine, isn't it? Do you know what she's like? Used for like ADHD and things like that?
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's the kind of thing when people say, I take amphetamine.
Speaker 2:It was just cheap. Like you know, I'd sometimes use cocaine and stuff when I went out, but the fit was cheap like the speed was cheap. You could, you know, you could buy quite a, you know, a big amount and it was cheap.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am. One thing that I'm really naive to is amphetamine, so I think that's partly also just not having the conversations with people around it. You know, most people I've ever spoken to has been around like opiate dependence, alcohol and things of that nature, so it's interesting to hear it from your perspective. So I guess, going back to it, there's a lot that's gone on there, a lot of abuse, a lot of different types of abuse, a lot of drug use. And even you know when, when not in these relationships, there was still the drug use continuing. Obviously, it didn't just stop with the, with the abusive relationship. So was there, was there a rock bottom moment where you thought right now, I have to, I'm going to get clean, though, I'm going to stop taking drugs? You've recently celebrated six years of sobriety. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And what was it that happened, you know, six years ago. So where you thought right, that might not be the rock bottom moment. That's the rock bottom moment, and the decision to get clean could have come at two different times. I've had you tell me.
Speaker 2:I'd say me getting clean was more of a light bulb moment. Yeah yeah, I've had a lot of rock bottom moments which I want to talk about, but I can't talk about because I am worried about the backlash that I'll get and it does involve my children and you know it's not my story to tell. I'm pretty sure it is. But yeah, there is, there is.
Speaker 1:What was the light bulb moment? What was the moment when you thought right, I'm doing it this time?
Speaker 2:I mean I'd had, I'd had social services involvement quite a lot, but I was quite in denial about my drug use. I wasn't honest about it because of that fear of having my children taken away. And I suppose the light bulb moment for me was when I actually admitted I had a problem and I felt like I was able to ask someone to support me because I needed help and I wanted to get clean. I'd tried getting clean so many times. My friends had helped me, my family had helped me. I'd gone to a buddy centre twice, stayed there for a week, because I used to just think if I had a problem I'd go to a buddy centre twice. I'd stayed there for a week because I used to just think, if I can just if I can just get clean and stop using for a week, I'll be fine.
Speaker 2:But then, you know, I'd stop using for the week. But then I'd use again and I just couldn't get clean and I realised it's because I didn't have no stability and I just thought if I stop using I'll stop moving. Like I couldn't. I couldn't get out of bed if I didn't use. If I didn't use I would be in bed and I would be in bed for days. I'd be depressed, I'd be crying, I just couldn't function. And you know, at the time my kids was on a child protection plan and stuff and I just at that time I thought I'd need to keep using because I need to keep going.
Speaker 2:And because of a lot of trauma I couldn't deal with and trauma that my children had gone through that I couldn't deal with. I felt like I needed to. I just felt like I needed to continue to deal with that. But probably the point where I realised that I needed to stop was when somebody said to me basically I know what's, you know, I kind of know the summit going on. It's okay, talk to me like I'll support you. And that's what I did, you know. And that was to the safeguarding leader at school. You know I would. I'd be having school at the door because my kids weren't on time for years, and then I would moved and the kids had changed school and the safeguarding leader at the new school, you know she'd said to me my door's open. If you want to talk to me, talk to me. You know I work, I'm here to support you. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, and I think that's all it can take sometimes, because from what I know, you know for you subsistence issue services, did you like?
Speaker 2:I did. When social services first got involved. They made me go to groups, they made me go see people about my debt. But they didn't know the full extent of my drug use because I hid it from them. They didn't know the full extent of why the drug use was there. What else was going on in the background. They didn't know the full extent of all that. But to be told by someone that it's okay if you're struggling, like talk to me, that kind of like was the breaking point for me.
Speaker 1:I think that's it's powerful, isn't it Just that all some people need really is to know that there's someone out there that doesn't judge them or won't judge them. But I think it comes ultimately again down to stigma. We know how people in society with substance misuse issues are trapped, and even people you know that are experiencing dependency. They're aware of the stigma.
Speaker 2:They're aware of how people go through. I never thought I was as bad as other people.
Speaker 1:Nobody ever does, do they I?
Speaker 2:would go to groups and I would.
Speaker 1:Sit around thinking well, I'm not as bad as this person, not as bad as that person. Everybody does that, doesn't they?
Speaker 2:I'm not a smackhead you know, I'm not an alchie and I don't inject and I don't do this. I didn't think I was as bad as other people were, because I didn't. I probably didn't realise that I was as dependent as what I was you know. But then when I got to the point where I did and somebody kind of opened that door for me and said you know, I worked at J.
Speaker 2:J talked to me, you know, and I went away and I thought about that. And then, you know, I knew that door was open and I used that opportunity to go into the school one morning and say look, this is my situation. You know, I'm an addict, I'm really struggling. I want to get clean. I keep trying, but I just cannot function. I just cannot get through my daily life without using. I can't do it. And she supported me. She didn't judge me.
Speaker 1:How did she support you Like? What did that look like? I mean, obviously she's a safeguard and lead for a school that there's only X and much that she can do with. Was she referring you into things? What did that look? Like to that journey to actually getting cleaned from.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so what she did say was there was a service children's centre and they had a project with Child Dynamics, and she did mention about, you know, needing a focus, you know having a focus to get up every day. So she mentioned about doing some volunteering and doing some courses and stuff, and I suppose the first thing what she said was trying to get into a routine, just trying to get up every morning, get up at the same time, get up, have a shower, brush your teeth, get dressed, get your kids to school, and if you go home and you sleep all day, that's absolutely fine.
Speaker 1:But at least you've achieved some at that day. But at least you've achieved some at that day.
Speaker 2:So for me it was not having the pressure. You know she didn't judge me. She didn't say to me you know you're a bad parent and you know you shouldn't be doing it and what you're doing is wrong. She sympathised with me and said it was okay and said she'll support me and you know, let's just concentrate on the smaller things, which was a massive thing for me because I couldn't function and I couldn't get up in the morning. So that was the first thing that I focused on was just getting up in the morning, getting a shower and getting some clean clothes or getting some clean pajamas, getting my kids to school on time. And then she referred me on to Child Dynamics to do some volunteering and that's when I started doing some courses and stuff I was still using at the very beginning, you know, like when I was attending these courses. But the days I was attending the courses I wasn't using and my usage became not daily like it was, but still on them days.
Speaker 1:It's a low reduction. In that, it's because you're actually filling your days with something meaningful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but still on them days like I was really, I was struggling to stay awake and stuff. I can remember actually like being on these courses and you know I was really tired, I was nodding off, I was falling asleep and I'd have to get up sometimes and go outside and you know the girls who was running the service, you know they'd come out and ask if I was okay and I'd just say I'm tired, I'm not feeling very well and stuff. But I just knew that I needed to start somewhere, not using just on the days that I was doing a course or doing some training. You know that was a start for me and that's how I did it.
Speaker 1:Good. What was the next step on from those courses? Where did you go next?
Speaker 2:So on the courses I was doing, obviously I started getting like certificates from them and you know I started getting a bit of a buzz out of that and I did the Pia mentor like as a parent support worker for that project and I got allocated my first family, you know. By that point I'd given up the drugs, starting from getting up in the morning, having that routine of just getting up and, you know, going on a course like one day a week and then an afternoon, and you know one afternoon a week and then a morning once a week and stuff.
Speaker 1:And then started to fill your days with enough stuff to not feel the need to be used.
Speaker 2:You know and at that point, like I didn't even have a car, at that point, my partner well, my husband now he bought me a push bike and I got allocated, like my first lady to work with. And I started working with this lady, started, you know, going around to a house supporting her as a Pia support, and I quickly noticed that something was not quite right. There was an occasion where I was with this lady and her partner came home and they helped the other body. You know everything about it just changed. So together we got some advice and I ended up taking her to Preston Road Women's Centre, which is the domestic abuse service, started supporting her attending there and then started from there. Really, there was the women's centre run courses as well. So I actually supported this lady to start doing a course there. But then it was a self development course and I wanted I wanted to do that course myself and I'll always remember the first day that I walked in with this client that I was working with and I walked in there and I said I love this place Like this is where I want to work.
Speaker 2:One day I'm going to work here, and it just stemmed from there. Really, I was volunteering at Child Dynamics, I'd you know I'd been allocated another, another family to work with another lady, so I was supporting another lady. And then I started doing some courses at Preston Road Women's Centre, did the self development course, which then led me on to do like interview skills and CV building, and then I wanted to volunteer there. I knew that was the way. You know that was.
Speaker 2:That was where I wanted to work and the way you know, I wanted to get my foot in the door, so I wanted to volunteer there and I started volunteering there as well, and then a job came up, so volunteering I did. I did one shift on reception volunteering.
Speaker 2:And then the job came up for a full time receptionist that never had a full time reception they had always been run by volunteers and I wanted that job. I wanted that job and that job was going to be mine. So I applied for it and got shortlisted for it and then I had two weeks to prepare for that interview and everything that I'd learned from the CV, cv building course, the self development course. You know the lady that ran the course there she was, she was course there, so she was absolutely amazing. She really did get the best out of me.
Speaker 2:I can always remember one time she'd asked in this course about you know something that we're proud of, something that we've achieved, and I kind of said, well, I've never achieved anything. And she said you know, there must be something. You know you must, there must be something like. And I said, well, you know, I'm a recovering addict. I said I've been clean for nine months. And her face and she was like wow, like that is, that is amazing. And it was the first time that I probably said it out loud and somebody actually told me you know, that is amazing, you know, that is something to be proud of. And it kind of made me think, you know it is, and she just, she just got the best out of me and she, you know, she just made me realise that actually, you know, I had a lot to offer.
Speaker 2:So, but yeah, I applied for this, I applied for the reception job, and then I got an email to say that I had an interview and I had two weeks to prep for this interview. And I literally prepped every single day for this interview. I researched, I researched the charity, I researched all the funders. I was watching YouTube videos every day. I was falling to sleep watching YouTube videos because I wanted this job.
Speaker 2:Like I'd drive past there and I'd look and I'd think, like I'm going to work Very determined, to do it Very determined, and I kind of knew that job was going to be mine and I just wanted to do everything in my power to get that job and so how long did you do it for after you got it? The job.
Speaker 1:So that's what you tell me. After all this prep, I was on there for weeks.
Speaker 2:No, no, I was no sir. I had the reception job for two years. That's brilliant. It's a long time for me, yeah, and it just built my confidence up and you know, I started getting responsibilities there and it just it made me start looking at my life. I'm thinking, you know what, like I have achieved something you know, it's my fit.
Speaker 2:I hadn't worked for 10 years and the last job interview that I had, previous to that, I'd gone for a job interview at school because I've been into college and I wanted to be a teaching assistant. I'd done my level one, I'd done my level two and I'd gone for this. I was still in addiction at this point and I'd gone for this job interview because I was thinking, if I get a job, it's going to, it's going to stop my addiction.
Speaker 2:You know, clearly it wouldn't have done anywhere because, I, you know I wouldn't have got the job anywhere. But then I'd gone for this job interview at school and I fell to pieces in the interview and I just sat and cried. There was.
Speaker 2:There was literally a panel of three people interviewing me and I just sat and cried and I just like had a massive breakdown in this job interview and that stayed with me for a long time. And you know, I didn't up until getting this job at the Women's Centre. I hadn't worked for 10 years. Like it put me off applying for jobs, like it just just took my confidence away. But yeah, then when I got this job at the Women's Centre, worked there for two years and then while I was working there and it was, it was during lockdown as well. So I started volunteering upstairs, I started supporting the women that was coming into the centre, I started chatting with them. You know, I'd make them a cup of tea, I'd be getting the food parcels together, I'd be sorting out the stuff that they needed you know when there was fleeing and going into the properties and stuff.
Speaker 2:And then I just thought, like you know, I've kind of outgrown this job. Now I want to, I want to job upstairs, I want to, I want to work in that, I want to work in that team. And so job came up as a housing support worker in the domestic abuse team, you know, like a crisis worker. So I applied for that job and, yeah, I ended up doing that for about 13 months.
Speaker 1:So obviously you've now here working at Change, grow Live and the Renewal Service. What made you do that job then? To do something specifically in substance misuse, because I guess, based on your lived experience, you know the domestic abuse has been a big part of it. What was the reason for now moving into more substance abuse and, I guess, based treatment and working, working in this place?
Speaker 2:I suppose all my life I never knew what I wanted to do. And then, obviously, working, working at the Women's Centre, and it just it was.
Speaker 2:it was literally the making of me you know the women that was there that I worked with, absolutely amazing. There was all empowering. You know. Eventually I disclosed bad drug abuse to the you know, like my circle of friends there and stuff and what one of one of the ladies that I worked with she'd she'd left there and gone away and work somewhere else and she'd seen the job on Indeed and she sent it to me.
Speaker 2:And she said this this job's for you apply for. It's perfect. And I did. I just she'd sent me on my phone and I'll always remember as well. It was a Wednesday. I was just laid on my bed. She sent me this job to apply for, clicked on it and I just I applied for it there. And then I just applied for it and was you wanting to leave?
Speaker 1:the Women's Centre at that time, or was it just a case of the job was too good to turn down? It sounds like you do know somewhere. I just I guess what I'm trying to get is that sound like?
Speaker 2:that was somewhere where you really wanted to work. I got to a point where I'd outgrown it Like I wanted more. There was. There was no progression for me there you could do yeah, and you know, I'm not.
Speaker 2:I just I always kind of dreamed about working for services, but I didn't have a clue how to get involved with it. I want to know how to like. I just didn't. I didn't know how to go about it. But yeah, I'd got to a point where I wanted to change and I wanted to do something else, but I didn't know there was any other, I didn't know what opportunities was out there. But, yeah, somebody, somebody, send him that job, just on a whim. And as soon as I read the job description I just felt like it's perfect.
Speaker 1:So tell me a little bit about the job then. What is the role of the DWP peer mentor?
Speaker 2:So basically it's, I'm a support worker for people that are on benefits that are struggling with substance issues, drug and alcohol issues. It's kind of like early intervention you know getting. I'm wanting to target them people that are on benefits. You know that I've got the drug and alcohol issues that have not yet disclosed, that they've got them issues or they don't know that they've got them issues. Some of you can really relate to.
Speaker 2:You know, just give them some reassurance you know there's they're not going to be judged. You know, bring, bring I'll. You know, just bring in, bringing them into the service.
Speaker 1:How many, how many of these people do you often think are confident in disclosing that they've got substance misuse issues to the DWP, because of stigma, you know, and the shame that comes with it? I mean, if I was going for I found it really difficult to say to my white coach, yeah, I've got a drug addiction problem. I didn't think they're going to sanction me off my benefits. So I'm like, because technically I can't work if I've, if I'm, you know, under the influence.
Speaker 3:This is where I come into it and it's a breakdown that the barriers between the job centre and addiction services.
Speaker 2:How do I do?
Speaker 1:it. Yeah, how can you increase confidence in you know, in someone, in being able to disclose that information to the job centre?
Speaker 2:By by being a peer mentor. You know it's, it's telling them people that actually I've got lived experience of addiction. You know and I've been where you've been and you know let me support you.
Speaker 1:So what sort of things do you do then, really, as the do you have to do so?
Speaker 2:it can be anything from the basic things of being in a routine, you know, helping them with. You know some. I know for me when I was in it, obviously when I was an addiction you know the bills and all that was mounting up. You know I was in loads of data. I couldn't function. There was no routine. So for me it's just starting with them basics of helping them get into a routine. You know what. You know what debts, what debts have you got? What have you fallen behind on.
Speaker 2:So just supporting them, like Setting up the utility bills, you know, getting in a routine, getting into the habit of coming to appointments. You know I can. I'm assisting people, going to the job center with them to the appointments and actually you know Breaking down that barrier of job center and addiction services and supporting them through that process of disclosing to the work coach and you know work, working alongside the addiction service as well and just letting them know what that person's going through. You know, letting them know that actually this person's turning up for appointments, this person's been really struggling but they're trying and this is this is the support I'm giving them to try and just giving them more of an understanding of what that person's going through. You know, giving them appointments first thing in the morning and back and actually support that person to say to the work coach, well, actually this person can't function first thing in the morning.
Speaker 2:This person needs an appointment in an afternoon, yeah, and so it can be anything put it, just handholding them with the referrals you know they might need Mental health support, so it's not actually sending them away and saying you need to refer yourself to these places. You know, let's go, let's do it together.
Speaker 1:I think that the best part about all this is based on what you're doing now. These are the sort of things that, when you finally disclose to the safeguard and lead what issues you had, she kind of did the same thing there for you giving you small dinner, smart goals yeah, giving you those and and that was enough to really set you on to the path as to where you are now. And now You're paying it forward and doing that exact same thing for other people as well.
Speaker 2:It's just giving, giving people that support that I believe that I needed at that time. You know, and I Think, once I sit, you know, when I'm speaking to people and I say to them look, I've got lived experience and I've been where you are and I get it the tender thing like, oh, I didn't, I didn't know the support was available. And, you know, supporting him, even coming coming into service. You know when, when, when I was told that I needed to self refer to the addiction service, like I Was scared, I didn't want to, like I was, I was scared of being judged. If I'd have had that person that I'd said you know, let me support you, Let me let me come with you, you know I'll attend that appointment with you, then it would have been less scary for me. And so, just reassuring them that you know I've been where you are, there's, there's no judgment. You know, let's do this together and let's just, like you say them smart goals of just taking them small steps, you know, one one day at a time.
Speaker 1:And obviously you've helped with things like funding as well as you know helping people get the basics for truce as washing machines, you know.
Speaker 2:Tell me a little bit about that, then so the there's people out there that are in addiction and it's because you know the scared or the they've got alcohol issues because the scared to go out, or the you know they've just got no confidence because they're lacking them basic the app, the basic needs that being met. You know.
Speaker 2:I've worked with someone who didn't have a washing machine. You know they didn't have no and gas supply, so they've no hot running water, just small things like that. You know that the two ashamed to ask for. So once I build up that relationship with that person and then, you know, they open up to me and I get a full understanding of actually, you know what. Where is this issue come from? You know why. Why are you? Why are you turning to alcohol? Why? Why do you need that confidence to be able to, you know, go to your job center appointment or to leave the house? You know, and it turns out that they're just, you know, for some people they just, they just have haven't had the basic needs met but, the two ashamed to ask for it, and that's kind of where I come into it.
Speaker 2:Um, you know, identifying what, what the need, what the you know, and, just yeah, supporting them with and you've been doing this job nearly a year now.
Speaker 1:Tell me what you, what do you enjoy about it?
Speaker 2:Just being able to be myself. You know, it's the fact that I can speak to them about my own lived experience is. You know I get paid to come to work where I can be myself. I don't have to. How do I am?
Speaker 2:I don't have to feel ashamed, and that's kind of what I want to inspire them people to do. You know, don't be, don't be ashamed to say that you need support or ask for support, because it's nothing to be ashamed of. And you know, we all need a bit. We all need a bit of help sometimes, don't we?
Speaker 1:I think the summit really Beautiful in the sense that you are getting paid to to be yourself, yeah, to think of everything that you've gone through and and obviously all the levels of trauma and the substance abuse and and how. All those things that were about one point and you know you could.
Speaker 2:You could maybe self-identify as it being a weakness to yourself is now your biggest strength in helping other people, I think that's, that's great you know, get get into a point in my life where I don't have to be ashamed about my addiction anymore and I can. I can promote that to people that I'm working with and inspire them and give them hope that actually, you know, I've. I've got no qualifications to do this job, I've just got life experience.
Speaker 1:So you're recently celebrating six years of sobriety. So what are some of the Contributing facts as what are some of the things that you've got in your life that are able to provide you with the stability that you never had whilst you was in addiction?
Speaker 2:And definitely it was meeting my partner and obviously as my husband now, paul, and Met him seven years ago.
Speaker 2:So I was still in addiction. I was in addiction for I think it was like 11 months after being with him, but just meeting someone who didn't judge me and just, you know, saw that I was worth something. And you know, like I said, my relationships with men previously you know it was it was always about sex and stuff. But I'll always remember like the first, the first time I, like I went on a date with him and I was staying at his apartment, when I lived, lived in an apartment, and but you know he'd said to me you know, there's a present in the top drawer for you and it won't what I was expecting. You know, when any man said that to me, it was always, you know, like Underwear and stuff. But the fact that he'd bought me some pajamas and a bottle of perfume and actually said to me you know, I don't, I don't just want you for that, like like I want, you know, I want to get to know you and you know I don't, I don't just want you for sex.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not just as not just a simple transaction which, to be fair, is about the sounds of. It seems what a lot of these relationships had been was very transactional around sex. I imagine that was a massive difference of Paul and. Peter, marry him, obviously, I imagine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how long you've been married and we've been married for two years. In May and it was just yeah, it was just, it was just different from any other man that I'd been with. You know, and even like the first, the first couple of times I'd met him and stuff and I'd sent him a text message, but, you know, just saying, you know, well, you will have a night out, take me to a fancy hotel and stuff.
Speaker 2:And he was like absolutely not, I'd like, I don't, I don't just want you for the night. I really like you and yeah, and just giving me that stability and that self-worth.
Speaker 1:I was gonna say giving you the self-worth. Yeah you've never. You've never had pride so that and I guess it comes into what we're saying about the Purposely sabotaging relationships. I'm sure that came into play with Paul and at some point. What did that happen early on?
Speaker 2:No, do you know what it never did? Really it never did. That's great.
Speaker 1:Cuz. I think that's the thing that you see the most is People purposely sabotaging relationships and they've got good things after being in abusive relationships for so long.
Speaker 2:Previously previously to him, like I did, sabotage every relationship that I had. There was just something different about him. You know I was. I was up front, I was honest with him. I told him I was an addict. You know this is a situation I mean, you know I'm I'm pretty much, you know I'm pretty screwed up, and he won't bother.
Speaker 1:What was that like them? First, 11 months with Paul, and when you explain that he was an addict to him.
Speaker 2:Um, well, he tried to help me. I remember, with it taking me, I'm it taking me to the. I'd previously visited and the Buddhist Center for a week and did like a working visit later Because I initially thought, if I can just go away and stop taking it for a week, like that would make me clean, and I tried it and I'd failed. But then, yeah, I'd met him and you know I'd said to my wanted to give it a go and stuff, and you know it took me to this Buddhist Center and you know I'd stayed there for a week, but you know I come back and I relapsed. But I think it was at that point that I realized that actually it's, it's not just about, it's not just about stopping using and everything's gonna be okay, it's about just having that address the ability and having you know some it to focus on, which I think that's why me doing the Volunteering and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:I think that just kind of give me a purpose and give me a reason To get clean, and so many people do that they go to detox or rehab Outside of the city where they're from and they think that kind of all the problems gonna go away with that. But there's such a. I mean I always say the addiction itself is that's the safest level stuff. It's addressing all that stuff underneath it to stop a no lapse or a relapse from happening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's the hard part isn't it, do you?
Speaker 1:know, people come to detox often say especially like if he's alcohol, detox is an example. That's the easy part, because you're in a safe environment where there's no alcohol, yeah, but you come home and then you go to shop on the weekend, and then you have to be faced with Adverts and aisles of alcohol, you know, which are just screaming like three for two, one crores. So do you know there's all this stuff and said that's the difficult part and I think In a way you have to, you know, address those underlining.
Speaker 2:And I did like like I said like quickly to yeah, I didn't, I didn't use to up my meals, I just like I'd get accumulated and stuff, and then I would, you know, I'd just, you know, I'd have bailiffs at my door and stuff, even when I was with Paul and you know, kind of just, you know, let's, let's pay it, let's, let's just sort out, let's stop ignoring it. And you know, let's just address it. And you know, gradually I did he sounds like a wonderful man. Oh, it's great. That's why I married him.
Speaker 1:KC, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I like to finish all my podcasts with a series of questions that questions that I ask all my guests and and quick fire questions, nothing to do with anything that we've spoken about so far. So my quest, my first question, is what's your favorite word?
Speaker 2:my favorite word.
Speaker 1:It's more of a quote, probably give me a quote that would be quite interesting to. A favorite quote is what it is Go on.
Speaker 2:It is what it is. It is what it is nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah what's your least favorite word?
Speaker 2:I can't think off the top of my head what my least favorite word is you must have one that you're hearing moist, moist. That's a common one, but I'll take it.
Speaker 1:Tell me something that excites you.
Speaker 2:Coming to work. I like that coming to work and working with people and inspiring other people and giving people hope and, like I said, just yeah, being paid to do a job that I absolutely love, surrounded by inspiring people and, you know, giving people hope that's what.
Speaker 1:That's the one my favorite answers to this question. Tell me something that doesn't excite you. Doesn't excite me days off annually by the sun.
Speaker 2:That doesn't excite me. Again, I can't. There must be something that you just think oh god, I can't be asked with that. Washing washing yeah, my husband does all the washing, so yeah, that really doesn't excite me.
Speaker 1:What sound or noise do you love?
Speaker 2:I'd say white noise at the minute because I can only sleep with Like the fan on, so I love that noise.
Speaker 1:What sound or noise do you hate?
Speaker 2:When people are eating chewing chewing with a mouth's open, yeah what's your favorite case word? Can I see it?
Speaker 1:Can I just kind of masking you the question? It's a problem, man. And if you wasn't doing this as a DWP, pimentel, what profession or job would you like to attempt?
Speaker 2:I would love to be a counselor. Thank, you. That is my long-term goal.
Speaker 1:Kesty, thank you so much for being on the believe in people podcast and thank you for being so open about these things as well. It's been much appreciated, and if you've enjoyed this episode of the believe in people podcast, then please check out our other episodes and hit that subscribe button. You can also find clips, outtakes and extras from this series on Facebook, instagram, twitter and YouTube at CGL Hull. That's at CGL Hull. We're on Apple music, spotify, google and YouTube music, so please like and subscribe to be notified about new episodes. You can also search for believe in people podcast on your favorite listening device and, if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.
