Believe in People

#25 - Jill: Alcohol Addiction, Suicide Attempts, Relapse, Rehabilitation, Recovery, Aftercare, Family Strength, The Forward Trust & Empty Nest Syndrome

• Matthew Butler • Season 1 • Episode 27

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Matt delves into Jill's profound journey of overcoming alcohol addiction, surviving suicide attempts, navigating relapse, and finding renewal through recovery. 

In this deeply personal and transformative podcast episode, Jill courageously shares her own lived experiences, recounting the challenges she faced on her path to healing. 

Matt and Jill also explore the critical role of organisations like The Forward Trust, which provide a guiding light for those seeking recovery. 

Click here to text our host, Matt, directly!

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🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

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🎙️ Facilitator: Matthew Butler
🎛️ Producer: Robbie Lawson
🏢 Network: ReNew

SPEAKER_02:

This is a new original recording. Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host or as I like to say, your facilitator. Today I have with me Jill and we discuss her journey through alcoholism, if recovery can become recovered, highlighting the weight of responsibility as a child and as a mother, emptiness syndrome and And her courage to overcome relapse. First of all, would you like to introduce yourself?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, my name's Jill.

SPEAKER_02:

Jill, thank you very much for coming on to the Believe in People podcast episode today. Obviously, I know you briefly. We've met a few times already. You were part of my recent PM Mentor course, so I got to know you a little bit then. But obviously, a lot of this stuff I'll be hearing for the first time, so... Can you tell me a little bit about yourself and I suppose your experiences of what brings you to this chair today?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, I was addicted to alcohol. It started, well, I drank normally, I would say, whatever normally is, from the age of 15 with friends just on weekends. Previous to that, I lost my dad when I was 11 years old and my mum became depressed, really depressed. And I was caring for my mum, really. She was on a lot of tablets. She took an overdose and I found

SPEAKER_02:

her. So your mum went, okay, what did she have an overdose on?

SPEAKER_03:

To Mazepan.

SPEAKER_02:

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_03:

And I found my mum when I was 11. And I think my life changed from there because previous to that, just normal. Mum, dad, brother, sister. Yeah. As I say, until I lost my dad at the age of 11. And then that's, I think, when I started to go in on myself. Obviously, when I found my mum had overdosed. That's when I started with fear to leave my mum. Because I thought if I left her, she might do the same again. So I spent a lot of time... At home, on my own, in the bedroom, you know. Just didn't really want to go out much. I went to school.

SPEAKER_02:

It's not something that someone your age should be thinking about, though, is it? Do you know what I mean? No. I think I can't leave the house in case my mum has another overdose. Yeah. What happens if I'm not there and stuff like that, yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, and I think sort of that's when sort of like everything changed for me. I just... no confidence, things like that. And I remember my first drink, actually, was when I was 15. And the thing I can remember is the way it made me feel. And it took away all the feelings of sadness that I had and the fear of leaving my mum. And it gave me confidence to sort of think, well, I'm my own person. I can do what I want to do. And I do remember that from when I was 15. But as I say, I drank just like normal. Well, as I would have thought, normal people do the same as my friends.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

As I got older, going out on a weekend, didn't drink during the week or anything like that. Looking back now, I can see the progression, but didn't see it then.

SPEAKER_02:

When did you first notice that it was a problem? Because I think that's one of the things I always find interesting with any addiction story, is that realisation of when the penny drops a little bit, it's a hang on, I'm using... cocaine more than my friends do I'm drinking more than my friends do and that's kind of when it becomes this issue where I guess the party doesn't stop for you when it is for everybody else around you

SPEAKER_03:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

when did you what sort of age did you notice them sort of problems

SPEAKER_03:

I think that was round about I would say maybe two years after I had my last daughter so I would say 30 33, 34, was when I noticed I was drinking more. I was drinking during the week and it was becoming a coping mechanism

SPEAKER_02:

for me. Coping mechanism for what? Was it the pressures of having chilled? I

SPEAKER_03:

think for me it was a confidence thing as well. I was anxious quite a lot. I was anxious of everything. My mum was still alive then and I was still trying to care for my mum as well as I have a husband and four children. And it was quite difficult because I felt torn between my family and my mum. because I was still trying to care for my mum as well. And still, I still had that fear inside me of leaving her. So I would try and spend as much time with my mum, which was basically nearly every day. As well as looking after my own family as well. But yeah, I think it was round about, roundabout when I was about 34, I think, after my last daughter, I noticed that I was drinking just about every day. Looking back, I didn't see it at the time, but looking back, I can see how I'd started on drinking cans of lager and cider, what I had in. And I remember my husband saying to me when he came home from work once, have you had a drink again today? And I thought, oh, maybe I'm, you know, drinking a bit too much. And so I changed it and I went and I bought wine because I thought if I buy something strong and maybe I don't have to drink as much.

SPEAKER_02:

So you were already aware that it was kind of becoming a problem then? I think

SPEAKER_03:

I was, yeah, I think at the back of my mind I was aware that, you know, I was a bit different. I was drinking more than what my friends and my family was drinking.

SPEAKER_02:

So even though you were drinking daily, was it to the point of being drunk or was it just like, I'll just have a beerie and a beer there and then eventually a glass of wine, even a glass of wine there? It

SPEAKER_03:

was... I'd maybe drink a few during the day just to keep me functioning, as I think it was, keep me functioning. And then when the kids would go to bed, that's when I'd drink more.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you look forward to them going to bed so you could have a drink? Yes. So yeah, okay, I get that. See, I think it's always interesting with alcoholism because we often see sobriety and we see addiction, but we don't often see that sort of build-up. to the point of addiction and how it sort of creeps up on you and it does start with maybe like just a couple during the week and you're not really thinking much to it and the next thing it's as you've said you was having them so you could function so was there any cause was you not concerned when you was having them drinks during the week and thinking i need this so i can function and did it feel like you could physically function or just so you can mentally function because like i've had those periods where i thought right let's have a drink and i can But sometimes it's a cup of tea. Have a brew and then I can get something sorted. But it's that same sort of thought process and pattern about just have this and then I can do that. So is that kind of what was happening? And I

SPEAKER_03:

think that was exactly as it was. It was just, oh, grab a beer or grab a can of cider and then I'll be able to carry on.

SPEAKER_02:

When did your husband really notice it and challenge you on it?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

That would have been when I was 35. Yeah. 35. Talk me

SPEAKER_02:

through that then. Because obviously it sounds like you've got the role of the stay-at-home mum. He's come home, found you drinking.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, my husband, well, my husband worked away. Oh, okay. He used to work away a bit as well on business. So there was a lot of periods, obviously, that You know, my husband didn't see my drinking. It came to the stage where I hid the drinking because of in previously, you know, saying, oh, why do you want to drink again today? So I would hide it. And that's when I started hiding the bottles. And then when it was all in bed. That's when I'd get up. Yeah. And that's when I'd drink. Yeah. It came to... It came... I'd say when I was about 36. I just knew... Drinker took over, basically. It was a case of I had to drink to function.

SPEAKER_02:

How old were your children at that point?

SPEAKER_03:

I had one that was... One that was 17, one that was 14, one that was 7, and one that was 4.

SPEAKER_00:

Wow.

SPEAKER_02:

That's just because even just generally as a parent, the problems that come with that 17-year-old teenager are different to what come with that 7-year-old because they were just starting school and things like that. And then you've got the 4-year-old. So to be looking after four children... such a broad age range and then to still have that going on with your mum as well I think my head would kind of want to implode on that and obviously you need to find some way to cope with that amount of stress and that amount of pressure and actually I think alcohol for for most is that first coping mechanism for escapism isn't it and as you said you know mirroring the the thoughts and feelings that you had when you was a child um uh do you know drinking and no longer caring, but having been a bit more carefree about the worries you had with your mum, that's now, you can see it's kind of replicated into adult life. Yeah. Because then you're drinking and you're going to care, not care, but care less about all this sort of stressful situations. Yeah. Was you aware that the reasons you was kind of drinking as an adult, independency, was the same as kind of what you was experiencing as a teenager, or did you make that connection later?

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I think I made the connection towards the end of my drinking because my husband used to say that I'd cry out and ask for my dad. I'd blame people. So I'd blame my mum and things like that. So I think the connection was there. There was a lot of blame. why I was drinking. It's difficult when looking back now, thinking, did I exactly know why I drank the way I did? I thought along the way I was just a bit of a heavy drinker. didn't realise that my body needed the alcohol.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, because a lot of people don't even realise that until, sometimes even until abstinence, really, I guess. The physical dependency and the mental dependency, you know, are two completely different things.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. The thing is, I got to the stage where I thought, I can't live with it and I can't live without it because my body was crying for the alcohol. Basically,

SPEAKER_02:

I said this recently, but one of the things I saw about alcoholism was one is too many and two is not enough. And I thought it was a very poignant thing where I just went, oh, I like that interesting sort of thing. So what was the moment where you did realize, I suppose, obviously, you've realized that there's an issue. What was the moment where you thought, right, I've got to make some changes then? I often use the term rock bottom moment

SPEAKER_03:

I was hospitalised a few times detoxed a few times leading up to that moment I took an overdose

SPEAKER_02:

what was that of? just alcohol

SPEAKER_03:

vodka and paracetamol and I was...

SPEAKER_02:

Was the intention with the parasite, was it? Yeah. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah. I just got to the stage where I thought, I don't want to put my family through it. And I didn't know what to do. And I thought there was better off without me. And then I came out of hospital from there. Previous to that, I'd been going to a few AA meetings. only because my husband had said you need to go and do something about it. So I did, I went along to it.

SPEAKER_02:

Had you identified yourself as an alcoholic at that point or was it no?

SPEAKER_03:

No, I didn't. If I'm honest, I didn't even know what an alcoholic was. I just still thought, I didn't understand why... my body started shaking when I hadn't had a drink. I didn't make that connection because I didn't know what an alcoholic was.

SPEAKER_02:

So did you know when you was feeling those shakes and those tremors to have another drink and it'll

SPEAKER_03:

make it stop? I knew that if I had a drink it would

SPEAKER_02:

It would stop it. But you didn't know why it would stop it. I didn't know

SPEAKER_03:

why. I thought it was my anxiety. I thought it's anxiety and stress. And the drink is taking the edge off. And the drink is just taking the edge off. Interesting. I didn't make the connection until later on, until I started to learn about

SPEAKER_02:

it. Some people don't even realise that you can have withdrawal from alcohol. This is something that we talk a lot about on this podcast is the... because it's legal people don't realise how dangerous alcohol can be especially in excessive amounts of consumption to the point of an actual physical dependency so I always think it's interesting when people are going through alcohol dependency and not realising why these things are happening and that's really interesting to know that you're going through that withdrawal you're feeling those withdrawal symptoms and you're thinking it's just because you're anxious so if I have another drink that takes the edge off it as opposed to if I have another drink that's actually going to help my body sort of processed this this withdrawal

SPEAKER_00:

that's crazy that i know yeah interesting

SPEAKER_02:

it must have been a pretty low moment for you to feel like my family will be better off about me yeah for you to get to that point what brought you to that point of thinking do you know everyone's better off around me Why did suicide seem like? Because it's the most extreme thing an individual can do. What brought you to that point of trying to take your own life? I

SPEAKER_03:

felt like failure. As a daughter, a mum, a wife. And it's so difficult at the time because... You know, I love, loved and still love my family so much. They're everything to me. But it came to a point with my family where they had to say, you know, enough's enough, Jill. We can't cope with this. You know, we can't have you under the same roof as the children because, you know, you're a danger. I was waking up during the night looking for alcohol. After blackouts, I would walk out the house at three, four o'clock in the morning, searching for anywhere that was open I could buy alcohol. And my family, You know, I ended up sleeping, waking up on the streets sometimes. My family, my husband, not knowing where I was. And I felt the pain that I was causing my husband and my children. And the pain I felt, the guilt, the guilt crippled me. And I felt there was just... There was no other way out. There was just better off if I weren't there. Then they wouldn't have, you know, they wouldn't have that worry.

SPEAKER_02:

I'm trying to think, obviously, because with your children being so varied in age as well at this point, your eldest is going to look at this in a completely different way to what your youngest is going to. What was the reaction?

SPEAKER_03:

My eldest one... Couldn't cope with it. He left and stayed with his grandparents on my ex-husband's side because my two boys was to my first husband, but was only married for four years. My husband now, I've been with 30 years. Oh, my two daughters. I've got two daughters with him. My oldest one, he couldn't cope with it. My two sons spent a lot of time with their grandparents. They didn't see much of their father, but they spent a lot of time with their grandparents. And he eventually just stayed. his nana and grandad

SPEAKER_02:

do you think they understood what was going on in any sort of capacity what was the conversation because i i think when you when you're younger the world is very black and white i don't think you really see the gray areas until you get a little bit older and you start to have an understanding and you see things from people's you know at least in terms of my own experiences the The empathy in myself seemed to come with age. When I was younger, it was like, this is good, this is bad, you know, and there was no sort of in-between. So how do you think that was sort of processing? I

SPEAKER_03:

think my oldest one was very much.....just that I was selfish and blamed me. Whereas my 15-year-old son... He stayed with me through it. The times when my husband had said, no, you've got to go, and I'd go to my mum's, my son had come with me. And I think as well, the guilt there was the fact that I felt as if I was doing exactly the same to my son as what I'd had with my mum.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, he couldn't leave your place? He couldn't leave me. Just in case sort of thing, yeah. Okay,

SPEAKER_03:

yeah. And he was just constantly watching me, you know. And I felt that I'd put him in that same position. But the suicide came, obviously, when all my family... basically given up you know that said you know we can't we can't have you here you're just a danger um and I I just didn't know where else to go um I ended up in Dockhouse hostel for a week um I managed to come off the drink I stopped the drink um because my husband had taken all my cash um I banked cards and everything off me at that point. And so I went through withdrawals in there. And then I came out of there. And as I said, I'd previously been going to air meetings and somebody from an air meeting suggested a rehab.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And so I went down to the rehab and I agreed to go in. I stayed sober from that point and went in two weeks later because I'd just got to the point where I knew for me if I didn't do something I was going to die and I was either going to die through the alcohol or through walking the streets, getting murdered or getting run over because half the time I was in blackouts.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's it. You see it sometimes, don't you, when you're driving around the city, people just wandering out in front of traffic and Talking about, you know, when I was younger and the sort of black and white areas, I'd just be going, what the fuck are they doing? Absolutely now I see them and there's just this sadness because I'm like, they're completely unaware of where they are, what they're doing. And I often, now speaking to the people I speak with as a job and as part of this podcast, not so long ago I was just sat in traffic watching somebody, you know, all over the place, wandering around in front of the rug, thinking, what happened to you? for you to get yourself to that point because there's a story behind everyone that's part of what this podcast is about you know is knowing that people don't just choose to become an addict there's things that are going on in someone's life that makes them turn to substances as we're discussing today um so with you then you obviously failed suicide attempts you'd gone for rehab What did you learn in rehab? Because obviously we were having a dependency for an amount of time there, and I suppose if your son leaving and your husband, basically people kind of being washing their hands, it had not been enough for you to want to get well then. What happened in rehab, which was the lightbulb moment where you thought, okay, I guess this is making sense to me now?

SPEAKER_03:

Well, the rehab I went in was a 12-step process. program rehab which is um obviously a yeah um it's it's difficult because in there um you're like in a bubble so it's like i was in there for three months um not being able to go out for the first two weeks no phone um And you're in that, you're in an environment where everybody's in the same situation, you know, either alcohol or drug dependency. So you're eating it and sleeping it, you know, basically. What I did go through was telling my story. Was

SPEAKER_02:

that the first time you'd had the opportunity to do that as well? That was

SPEAKER_03:

the first time that, yeah, everything had started to come out. It was a gradual process of weeks, talking to counsellors on a one-to-one in there and doing group therapy in there. But it started to slowly come out.

SPEAKER_04:

And

SPEAKER_03:

that's the first time that things had started to open up and things had started to come out. And then through the rehab, after six weeks, we could come home for a weekend.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

But we had to go to an AA meeting over the weekend, which I did. And so I'd started to go to the AA meetings every week, coming out of the... rehab on a weekend.

SPEAKER_02:

Did that help you, being around people that you could identify with and see people with similar issues to yourself?

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, because as I said previously, I'd gone to air meetings, but I was still drinking.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I'd not taken anything in.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

And

SPEAKER_02:

you was in denial a little bit yourself. I was in denial,

SPEAKER_03:

wasn't taking things in, didn't really want to be there. But when I'd... obviously going into the rehab I'd sobered up I was abstinent from alcohol for weeks and weeks and I'd started to listen to people and I could relate to what certain people were saying obviously not everybody's story is

SPEAKER_02:

the same

SPEAKER_03:

um but there was little bits

SPEAKER_02:

yeah yeah pick things up from different people don't you know everyone's story is different but there's i suppose what i find is there's themes and often it's like oh i get that part or that part resonates with me um so you're taking all these do you know you're taking a lot more responsibility by the sound of things at this point yeah When did the relapse come

SPEAKER_03:

then? It's really hard to say because looking back now, I think I relapsed before I actually picked the drink up, mentally.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. I'd stopped. Just describe that one because I'm aware of this, the relapse happening before the relapse, but not many people would get that.

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

The thoughts, little things coming back into my mind, you know. Well, I've not had a drink for 11 years, you know. Maybe I want an alcoholic. Little thoughts like that coming back in, going out, coming in, going out, you know, fleeting. But still going in there and thoughts that I've not had. previously due to going to meetings and mixing with other recovering alcoholics. And going to meetings and being reminded of where alcohol had taken me, I'd started to forget.

SPEAKER_04:

I'd

SPEAKER_03:

started to forget the bad times. And then it's, again, it's like just watching people enjoying a drink and thinking, in summer, no, nice

SPEAKER_02:

spritz there. In the garden, yeah. In the

SPEAKER_03:

garden, and then little things would come back, oh, well, maybe I'd be all right to do that now. You know, maybe that would be okay for me to, you know, have a couple of drinks now. I might be okay. And things... you know, started to...

SPEAKER_02:

Because you're aware of their physical dependency at this point. So you're aware you haven't got that physical dependency now. Yeah. So technically, you would be right in thinking, oh, one won't harm me. Maybe. One or

SPEAKER_03:

two, I'll be all right.

SPEAKER_02:

I'll be okay. And that's where a lot of people go wrong because it's not... When you're an alcoholic, it's not just the physical dependency, is it?

SPEAKER_03:

It's the mental side of it as well. You're always... If you're not drinking, it's when you're going to get your drink or... Where's the next drink going to come from? It's constant.

SPEAKER_02:

It goes back to that thing of the one being too many and the two not being enough, isn't it? So talk me through that then. Can you remember that day that you picked up that drink? Talk me through that then.

SPEAKER_03:

As I say, by then my two children, two older boys had grown up, left home, both married, children. one of my daughters had moved to Sheffield to become a probation officer and there was just my youngest daughter at home but again she had a partner, she was at college my husband was still doing his job and working away at times and I remember the clear as day waking up in the morning and just feeling sad there was just like a blackness had come again and I hadn't felt I hadn't felt like that for a long time and I fell alone was

SPEAKER_02:

there having four children All varying ages. You've just said then that they've all gone. Was there a bit of that? They call it emptiness syndrome as a mother? I

SPEAKER_03:

think there was, yeah. Obviously, my two boys didn't live too far. One lived in Hull and one had moved just outside Hull. Charlotte spent a lot of time with her partner and Courtney had moved to Sheffield. And so, yeah, there was that feeling of being alone. And I think, looking back, it was so many things that I can't, you know, so many things that I'd stopped doing. And then the thoughts that I'd start thinking that, that I'm thinking about having another drink. But I didn't wake up that day thinking, right, that's it, I'm going to have a drink now. I woke up and I just felt like I had done a long time ago. You know, like, sorry. Like there was, you know, just a blackness. And I'd just got myself showered as normal, ready, and went to shop to get some shopping. And in the basket was a bottle of vodka, and I'd put it there. And I remember, I remember sat in my bedroom at home, and I'd poured a glass and cried. So part of me, obviously, still knew that I shouldn't be doing that, but I didn't have any defense against it. I'd stopped all contact with other alcoholics at that point, stopped going to meetings, and I just felt alone. And for me, I want to learn if I had that drink there. And so I drank it. And it was just like going back. I drank the full bottle. And I passed out, luckily enough, my husband. It was away at the time, and there was nobody at all. And I woke up in the morning. And it scared me. It scared me the fact that I'd just gone back completely to, you know, where I was 11 years ago. And I never picked a drink up again for six months.

SPEAKER_02:

So you had that bottle, so that was just a lapse then? You had that bottle and that was it, nothing for another six months?

SPEAKER_03:

I was... Because when I woke up, the fear, the sickness I felt, the shaking I felt, I was physically shaking and it frightened me. And so I never picked a drink up for six months. And I think the reason I picked a drink up six months after was the fact that, you know, I'd got away with it. And I'd not had a drink for six months. You know, well, I had a drink then. And I hadn't had a drink for six months. So, you know, maybe I am okay. Maybe I can just have a drink now and again. And I think that was the thought process.

SPEAKER_02:

Trying to rationalise it a little bit, yeah. Yeah. So what happened six months later then? Why did you pick up again?

SPEAKER_03:

Again, I think it was just, I still felt alone again. I was, I'd gone back to feeling, I think I'd gone back again to feeling a failure, feeling worthless and, you know, Again, all my children had gone. I've never felt good enough for some reason. I never felt as if I was good enough for anything, if I fitted in. I don't know where that comes from. I've always, there's always been a part of me that's, I've always felt as if I'm not as good as I should be. I should be better. I should be better at this and I should be better at that. And I think all them thoughts had started to come back. Whereas previously, being abstinent from it, all my self-worth and my confidence and everything had come back. And I think having that drink again had taken that away from me. And again, I just felt a failure. And that's when I picked the drink up again.

SPEAKER_02:

Is this when it became a relapse or was the multiple lapses before? This

SPEAKER_03:

is when it came to the stage where I was buying a bottle and putting it upstairs and I was drinking again when my husband was in bed and I was getting downstairs and I was drinking. And I did that for a while. And then... My husband, I could feel, I think he was scared

SPEAKER_02:

to

SPEAKER_03:

ask.

SPEAKER_02:

Didn't want to know, just in case. I

SPEAKER_03:

think he was scared to ask, and I think my kids were scared to ask. I'd stopped going and looking after the children with my son, making excuses, not very well, and I can't do this, and I need to do this. I was isolating again. Yeah, yeah. And I think they really didn't ask because of the fear, you know.

SPEAKER_02:

When did they find out?

SPEAKER_03:

It came to a head when, again, I just... My body, my body, alcohol had just took over again. And I was drinking more and more. I was going through... half a bottle of vodka to keep me going during the day and then a full bottle of vodka on a night when my husband was in bed. And I just thought I can't, I can't put them through this again. And so the next day I filled, I went to shop and filled my car full of drink, vodka, wine. And And I drove my car, not far from the house, but away from the house, parked up. And I just sat and drank. And I just thought, if I just sit here, I'll just drink and I'll die. And then that's it, the daft worry. And I can remember, I remember sat, I sat in the car drinking the first bottle of vodka. And then I must have blacked out, and then I remember drinking another half a bottle of vodka. And then it was dark. I don't know what time it was or anything. and I was still drinking. But I was drinking and sleeping and not knowing what time it was or anything. And there was a, I just remember, sorry.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh well. Can I take a break?

SPEAKER_03:

there in a knock on the car window and I opened my eyes and some of the two girls stood there and my son and my husband and I didn't even know what time it was, what day it was. And I just saw the tears. The tears rolling down the face. And I don't remember much after that, apart from waking up, laying in bed, And then thrown up and thrown up and thrown up. And my husband looking over me and saying, why? And I said, I don't know. And I just said, the pain. And I just knew I had to do something. I had to do something then. I couldn't carry on. I couldn't carry on like that again. I didn't want to put myself through it and I didn't want to put my family through it. So I phoned my doctor. My husband said, you need help. found my doctor, which was, fortunate enough, it was the same doctor that knew I'd been previously 11 years sober. And he was willing to detox me, along with my husband's help at home, which we did. That was on the Friday. My doctor had said, if you tried Renew, which I'd not heard of before, and gave us the contact number for Renew. And my husband called on the Monday morning. And I was still obviously jittery and everything, because I was still obviously coming off Well, I was off it, I was getting detoxed with the tablets the doctor had given me, but I still had the shakes and the sickness. And I spoke to a lady on the phone who did an assessment with me on obviously how much I was consuming and everything. And then I had, I was still, I was being sick for, I think it was round about one of the longest, it was about two weeks. I was ill. I had hallucinations. Sweats, ears ringing, I couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. And Renew got back to me and said they was gonna appoint me a key worker. I had a couple of one-to-ones. It was just coming up to Christmas at this point. This was round about the 16th, 17th of December at this point. I had a one-to-one with a key worker, which she'd said I could have over the phone or in person, and I said, could I do it in person? Because... For me, I wanted to not pick that drink up.

SPEAKER_04:

And

SPEAKER_03:

if I'm with somebody in person, obviously they can see. And I asked if I could be breathalysed as well so they could see I was abstinent, which she did.

SPEAKER_02:

So you'd kind of gone to a new... In abstinence, basically, then? Yes. Had you done a detox, like a self-detox at

SPEAKER_03:

home? I'd done the detox, what the doctor had prescribed tablets to get me through. I'd gone through, obviously, the withdrawals, the sickness, but the tablets the doctor gave me helped

SPEAKER_00:

me through that. What tablets was that?

SPEAKER_03:

The doctor gave me... codeine and diazepam for a week. And that just helped take the edge off, basically, the shaking and things. Once I'd got off the drink and I'd been in touch with Renew, that's when I knew I needed to get back and do something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

So did they just move you pretty much straight into the aftercare program

SPEAKER_03:

then? There was really... Obviously, with it being just before Christmas, I didn't... Basically, it was just how much I'd drunk. And then I had a one-to-one with the key worker. She spoke to me. She... told me about the options that there was at Renew. They had groups, different groups that you could go to with Renew.

SPEAKER_02:

It's the foundations program. There was

SPEAKER_03:

Living Safely, Stepping Stones, Recovery Skills and then Day Rehab. And She gave me the options of which ones I wanted to try. And a couple of the facilitators, or drug and alcohol practitioners, what they're called, had rung me to let me know about the... the groups, what it was about and what it involved. For me, there was no option because I knew I had to be abstinent. I knew for me I needed an abstinence program because I just knew I couldn't pick a drink up. I had to stay abstinent. And I was offered either a two-day one, which was recovery skills, or a full week, Monday to Friday, which was day rehab as they call it. So I asked if I could do the day rehab. They got me in for the 13th of January. I spoke with the drug and alcohol practitioner, just answered some questions, what I needed to, what they needed to know, basically, and personal details and things. And then they asked me if I wanted to start the following day, which I

SPEAKER_02:

jumped

SPEAKER_03:

at. Please, yeah, can I just do

SPEAKER_02:

this? So for people that don't know what Dairy Ab is then, Now you're someone who's experienced, you know, going off to rehab, you know, away from friends, family and doing it alone. Day rehab, much different to that. Yes, much different. Tell me a little bit about what day rehab actually is then.

SPEAKER_03:

Day rehab is, it's a two and a half hour session, so 10 o'clock till half past 12, Monday to Friday.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

in a group however many people are in, are in the day rehab at the time. And it is based on a 12-step program. So you do your first three steps in day rehab. The thing for me, obviously I knew I needed to be abstinent. I couldn't pick a drink. I knew then, Looking back at why I picked a drink up, because I'd stopped doing what I needed to do. So for me, I knew I had to do the day rehab. The good thing, I think, for me about the day rehab, what was different to my previous rehab was I was going in there each day, but I was still having to live my life as well. I wasn't enclosed in a bubble.

SPEAKER_02:

I suppose that the good thing about that is, and it's something I've discussed with people before, when you go to rehab, as difficult as rehab is, and I'm not dismissing that, It's actually the easiest part because when you leave, you're out of that bubble. That's it. So all those temptations that couldn't get to you when you was in rehab can now get to you. So I suppose in a way already from an outside perspective, I'm seeing the benefit here to the day rehab program because you can't be in the bubble. Yes, you're doing something for yourself and you're working towards your goals in that sense and working for the first three steps, but you're still very much... have all them temptations around you

SPEAKER_04:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

the real the real world is still there that's it that in a sense it could be difficult for people but it's also that's also a massive benefit because it isn't that shock to the system of art i'm out now do you know oh do you want a drink oh yeah there's all that isn't it

SPEAKER_03:

yeah yeah because obviously it's just two and a half two, two and a half hours a day. The rest of the time, you're living your life. You're doing your normal day-to-day, your day-to-day things.

SPEAKER_02:

Is it a 12-week program? Because I think you told me you did like six months, didn't you? Yes, it is. So how did that work?

SPEAKER_03:

It is a three-month, 12-week program. That's when you do your first three steps. So you do your life story... And then step one, step two, and step three over the three months. You can then do what's called aftercare, which is an extra three months,

SPEAKER_02:

which is what

SPEAKER_03:

I did.

SPEAKER_02:

So I guess, what are the benefits of aftercare then? Why did you feel the need to take up an extra three months? I would have just

SPEAKER_03:

took anything they offered me at the time.

SPEAKER_02:

Did you not feel ready after three months initially? I

SPEAKER_03:

wouldn't say I didn't feel ready. For me, it's a case of staying connected and getting as much help as I possibly can because I don't want to pick that drink up again. Of course, yeah.

UNKNOWN:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

So it was a no-brainer for me. Whatever I can take, the more I can get out of something in recovery, then I'm going to take it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's... When they asked if I wanted to do the aftercare, yeah, the same as... when they asked me if i wanted to do dairy up the next day

SPEAKER_02:

yes we spoke a lot about you uh your family throughout this throughout this episode what can i suppose someone's loved one if someone was listening to this and they're the loved one of someone with a dependency so the position of your husband or your children what advice could you give how can people support someone in addiction

SPEAKER_03:

It's a very difficult question because I know there's a lot of people out there that, you know, it's hard. It must have been the hardest thing for my family to turn me away from the door, do you know? And I understand why they had to do it, but it must have been the hardest thing, you know? knowing that I was out there drinking and wondering where I was. For me, I had to reach a point where, a point on a return, I had to reach my rock bottom. And while I was still comfortably in my house, having somewhere to drink, the money to be able to drink, I think I would have carried on for a lot longer had it not been for the fact that my family said, no, that's it.

SPEAKER_02:

So you think they did the right thing?

SPEAKER_03:

I think they did the right thing,

SPEAKER_02:

yeah. Talking about Renew as a service we offer a lot of help to people in addiction but like you yourself you'll come in specifically for aftercare and I think the interesting thing about that is often when people seek advice and help from Renew it's at a point where they need treatment as opposed to aftercare and I guess what we do have is an offer of If you are going through something, maybe bereavement, stress, there's an offer there to engage with our aftercare program. Because as we've discussed, aftercare is constant. You experienced 11 years of abstinence. I suppose, had you known that there was support here, specifically for aftercare, do you reckon that secondary relapse may have happened? Or do you think that kind of had to happen for you to... Get the help you need. That's a

SPEAKER_03:

difficult one.

SPEAKER_02:

It feels like a bit of a loaded question. It's a

SPEAKER_03:

difficult one because at the time I didn't know about the service renew. So had I known about it, would I have engaged in it? I don't know. It's hard to say.

SPEAKER_02:

What advice would you give then to someone who is maybe going through something and hasn't reached out yet? call renew

SPEAKER_03:

the amount of support and help that there is there you know it's amazing and I didn't even know all of it when I went into the day rehab you know that was just one small part of it the amount of groups and you know they have Coffee mornings for people to just go and chat. You have an open kitchen for people to go and make a cup of coffee and have a bit of breakfast and chat. That's all connection.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. The key is, as you said, connection, but prevention. I guess that's kind of what we want to do. It's a shame that some people aren't getting the help until it becomes a problem, when the idea really is... you know as part of a new is to stop it from ever being a problem in the first place if you're having you know a wobble or if you are considering you said you know that moment where you were just looking at the glass of vodka and you was crying because you knew this is kind of what it had come down to

SPEAKER_00:

yeah

SPEAKER_02:

why why should you have had to have that vodka in order to have got help afterwards you know what i mean so the idea being if if people are experiencing those false feelings prevention It's the best thing, really. So getting in

SPEAKER_03:

early. Getting in there before...

SPEAKER_02:

Before it becomes a

SPEAKER_03:

problem. If there's any... If people that are obviously abstinent from drugs or alcohol and the feel that they're starting to get stressed or anxious or... wobbly and fear and panic that they might pick a drink up and there is massive massive problems that people have like you said there's loss of loved ones there's family moving away there's being on your own all sorts of things that you might have a wobble and pick a drink up. You know, pick the phone up. Pick the phone up and ring Renew because they have so much to offer. You know, as I said, it's not just the... the groups, there's so much support. The social side of it. They can offer people one-to-ones to have a chat. They're there for support and for help. What might not be right for one in

SPEAKER_02:

a group might be okay for somebody else. That's the thing that I always feel, you know, some people think, oh, A didn't work for me and A didn't work for me, so... When so many people experience success in those programmes, they instantly feel like, well, nothing's going to work for me now. And it's just understanding there's so many alternatives to getting help. And it isn't just about structured group programmes. It's just about finding, sometimes it's not even the programme, it's the people that you're surrounding yourself with that's going to help you. The actual words from a programme isn't necessarily the thing that helps. It's the support mechanism of being around like-minded people that's it it's just

SPEAKER_03:

the connection for some people it's just that connection with another addict

SPEAKER_02:

yeah absolutely you know but it's about getting yourself into those environments you're not going to experience that until whether it be any smart whatever type of mutual aid or do you know like the fold connect groups that recently started as well it's just about being around people who've experienced similar things to you and can resonate with what you're saying.

SPEAKER_04:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Jill, thank you very much for coming on to the podcast today. We've gone through a lot there, a lot of serious stuff. I like to end all my podcasts with a little bit of, a bit lighthearted. So I've got a series of 10 questions that I'm going to ask you, completely relevant to everything we've spoken on so far. And my first question to you is, what is your favourite word? Favourite word? Yeah. Food. Nice. Least favourite word?

UNKNOWN:

Food.

SPEAKER_01:

Sadness.

SPEAKER_02:

That's not a great word, is it? Sadness. No positive connotations with the word sadness, is there? Tell me something that excites you.

SPEAKER_03:

Now.

SPEAKER_02:

Just in general. Life.

SPEAKER_03:

Life. Tell

SPEAKER_02:

me something that doesn't excite you.

SPEAKER_03:

That's an hard one. I'm struggling with this one. Something that doesn't excite me.

SPEAKER_02:

You can skip it if you've not got anything. I'm really, really

SPEAKER_03:

struggling. I like

SPEAKER_02:

the idea that you're struggling because that just means everything in the world excites you.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh, well, I wish it did.

SPEAKER_02:

You just love everything.

SPEAKER_03:

But I wouldn't say that. but I just can't think of anything that

SPEAKER_02:

don't really excite me at the minute. Coronation Street, I'll vote that. Soaps, they're probably a man. I think so. I've never thought about if I was asked these questions, but I reckon if I was, I would say soaps. When people look forward to Coronation Street, I just can't understand it, it baffles me. I will

SPEAKER_03:

say one thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Go on then.

SPEAKER_03:

Cricket.

SPEAKER_02:

Cricket, yeah. Cricket, I've never understood that. And golf. Yeah, golf. It's one of those ones where actually, weirdly enough, I used to enjoy playing cricket at school. I used to enjoy playing golf when it occasionally happens and I'd go play golf. But the idea of watching these things, that's the bit that always confuses me. That really doesn't excite me, yes. Do you have a favourite curse word? Have a favourite? Curse word. Favourite swear word? Or are you not someone to swear?

SPEAKER_03:

I wouldn't say I swear very often. But I tend to say shit.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, that's what I say when I first wake up in the morning. I open my eyes, shit, what's ahead of me today? Obviously, you're currently volunteering at Renew and doing some work as a peer support worker. I tell you what, if you wasn't doing this role then, what would you like to do? What would be your dream job?

SPEAKER_03:

That's really hard because I feel like this is something that I would have wanted to do a long time ago, but the children were young. But now I've got the opportunity.

SPEAKER_02:

Obviously, you're only doing it as a volunteer. So you could say, yeah, I suppose that could be a dream job, couldn't it? What's the worst job you could think of doing? Washing pots. Pot washing. Pot washing. I did. I always feel bad, like, when I go out to a restaurant and, like, there's stuff left on my plate. Like, when I went for a carvery and I put too much gravy and I thought, oh, I'd hate to be the person washing these pots. Like, what a nightmare.

SPEAKER_03:

I tend to scrape.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. And pile the plates up for real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do. I put them all together. Yeah, and then put them all together. It doesn't take much, does it? What sound or noise do you love?

SPEAKER_03:

Do I

SPEAKER_02:

love? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03:

I like music.

UNKNOWN:

Nice.

SPEAKER_02:

What sound or noise do you hear?

SPEAKER_03:

Loud bangs.

SPEAKER_02:

So when I'm doing all these clapping and stuff, I don't just...

SPEAKER_03:

Yeah, but I knew that was coming. It's the unexpected loud bangs. Yeah, an unexpected loud bang.

SPEAKER_02:

And then lastly, if God exists, what would you like to hear him say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

SPEAKER_03:

Something along the lines of maybe... Welcome, Jill. You weren't perfect, but you tried your best.

SPEAKER_02:

That's nice. Thank you very much for coming on our Believe in People podcast. Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01:

And, you know, we've not even had it a year yet. And so we're just learning. We're getting on our feet. We take a lot of advice from other organisations. We will be into your ribs for ideas and how we do. It's

SPEAKER_02:

everything that comes with addiction. Like you said, there's one thing to come and say, look, I've got a problem with alcohol, I've got a problem with drugs. But as you've said then, there's... employment, there's mental health, there's all this stuff that comes into it, isn't it? That's why the infrastructure needed to run something like that. It could be quite big, but bringing it down to its basic value is I need help and I'm willing to give you help. That is

SPEAKER_01:

it. That is the two things you need. I need help. I am willing to do anything.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. That's it. That's it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

That is it. And then... And then you go, okay, we need you to go to a meeting tonight, now.

SPEAKER_02:

And have that commitment to be able to do that as well. What advice would you give to people perhaps with a hidden addiction or something that they're worried about keeping from their family? I know you've said about getting to a meeting or something.

SPEAKER_01:

If you don't want your family to know about your addiction, and I totally understand this, whether it be gambling, especially gambling, that's why they're called anonymous. No one is going to grass you up. No one is going to break your anonymity. I can't even say it. Never mind grass you up. Go along. Ask for help. And you will get it. But once you've started that journey, then it's up to you. You've got to do it. And it's not easy. No. It's not easy. Believe me, if it was easy, everyone would be doing it. But it's not. And what you've got to remember is addicts, whether you're a gambler, drug addict, alcoholic, we're special people. We should be dead so many times over. But we're not. We're not dead because we're hard to kill. We're survivors. Go and get some help because believe me, your life will get better. Brilliant. Thank you, Kevin.

SPEAKER_02:

I've got a series of questions that I ask all our guests. It's relevant to everything that we've spoken about so far, but it's just a nice way to end the podcast. So they're going to come out of left field a little bit here. But my first question is, what is your favourite word? Bollocks. What's your least favourite word? Tax. Tell me something that excites you.

SPEAKER_01:

Not so many. New strings.

SPEAKER_02:

Nice.

SPEAKER_01:

New strings on a guitar excite me. Tell me something that doesn't excite you. Old strings. Waiting. Yeah. Fair enough. Understandable.

SPEAKER_02:

What sound or noise do you love?

SPEAKER_01:

I like to hear my children laughing. That's nice. I like that one. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Tell me a sound or noise that you hate.

SPEAKER_01:

Phones in hotels. Because it always... So specific. Yeah, because it always reminds me of... Where are you? Fear. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

I get that. What's your favourite curse word? And not bollocks, something else. We've got a different one. I like how Ellie was asking, can I swear on this? And now I'm asking, what's your favourite curse word?

SPEAKER_01:

Fuck. Yeah. Because that just covers everything. It

SPEAKER_02:

does, yeah. Fuck off, it's fucked. The context is infinite, isn't it, for the word fuck? If you wasn't an actor, what profession would you like

SPEAKER_01:

to attempt? I'd be, I think I'd be a muso, or I'd be a musician. Or I'd be some kind of historian. Historian, where's that come from? I don't know, I've always liked history. It fascinates me. I like it.

SPEAKER_02:

What profession would you not like to do?

SPEAKER_01:

Dentist. Dentist. I wouldn't fancy that.

SPEAKER_02:

Is it correct that you were in a band with members of the Smiths? I was.

SPEAKER_01:

When I was 14, I was with Johnny Marr. Again, we were only 14, and I didn't put that much credence on it until I read Johnny's book. And he puts a lot of importance on it, so I thought, okay. And yeah, so that was... Again, 14. So, yeah, I was. Nice.

SPEAKER_02:

You see, this isn't a question we ask everybody. That one's tailored to you. One more tailored to you. You're a big Man City fan. Yeah. Are we watching the greatest team ever to be assembled in England right now, and what are your predictions for the final? I

SPEAKER_01:

can't watch it because I'm on stage. Mm-hmm. Luckily, the crew were great and the best crew in the world give me updates as I come off. Nice. But if the opposition have scored, they don't tell me because I go on the next scene. But if City have scored, they tell me. I go like... The final, I think we're on a week's break, so I'll catch the final. The FA Cup final, we're going to be in Belgium at the time with this. So that's going to be tricky. I'm not sure, unless it's on a Sunday. I

SPEAKER_02:

don't know when it is, do you?

SPEAKER_01:

I don't know when it is.

SPEAKER_02:

It's normally on a Sunday, isn't it? Yeah, it's normally on a Sunday. And then lastly, if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, firstly, heaven does exist, as does God. But it's all in here. He'll probably say, you again, you mithering bastard. More every day you're asking for something.

SPEAKER_02:

Brilliant. And that's it. Thank you very much. You've been an absolute pleasure. Thank you. And if you enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People podcast, don't forget to check out our other episodes and hit that subscribe button. Follow us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and TikTok. Our name is CGL Hull. That's C-G-L-H-U-L-L. We're on iTunes, Spotify, Amazon, and Google Music. So please like and subscribe to receive regular updates. You can also search for Believe in People podcast on your favorite listening device. And if you could leave us a review, that will really help us with getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.

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