John Thurston: Injecting Heroin Into His Penis, Prison & Survival

Matt delves into a heartfelt conversation with John, a resilient Hull native whose journey transcends addiction to embody the essence of resilience. 

Now serving as a Harm Reduction worker, John's decade-long battle with heroin addiction positions him as a beacon of hope for others navigating similar challenges.

As John bravely recounts his path to recovery, he not only shares his personal struggles but also provides a guiding light for those still grappling with addiction. 

His story serves as a powerful testament to the transformative power of determination, support, and the right access to resources.

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Believe in People is a platform for lived experience, recovery insight and honest conversation. Whether you’re in recovery, supporting someone who is, or working on the frontline, this podcast exists to inform, challenge stigma and inspire change.

If you or someone you know needs support with drugs, alcohol, housing, domestic abuse, or mental and physical wellbeing, free and confidential help is available via Change Grow Live:

📩 Contact: robbie@believeinpeoplepodcast.com
🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” - Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

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🎙️ Facilitator: Matthew Butler
🎛️ Producer: Robbie Lawson
🏢 Network: ReNew 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is a Renew original recording. Hello and welcome to the Believe in People podcast. My name is Matthew Butler and I'm your host, or as I like to say, your facilitator. Today we speak with John. John serves not only as a harm reduction worker, but also as a living testament to the transformative power of overcoming addiction. His journey of resilience through a decade-long struggle with heroin addiction positions him as a beacon of hope and inspiration for others facing similar challenges.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

First of all, would you like to introduce yourself? Hi everyone, I'm John Pearson. I'm an armed reduction worker at Renewal.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Cheers, John. Thank you for giving me time to come on today. Obviously, I've said this prior to us coming on here, but just to echo the point, I've wanted to join this podcast since day one. And my worry has always been that if we got you on, we'd peak too soon. Because obviously, I know elements of your story. A lot of people know who you are, especially in Hull, in the substance misuse community and people who use the renew services. And I know parts of your story, but I don't know the exact timeline. So I guess that's what I'm kind of looking forward to today is piecing what I do know about you together. And, you know, I'm sure I'll be hearing some stuff for the first time as well. So we'll start at the beginning. Like, how old was you when you first started taking drugs?

SPEAKER_00 1:14

I was probably around about 13, 14, like most people would have met around the park, you know, drinking the old bottle of cider here, a bit of Tippec sniffing. Not real hardcore, just like recreational jug use as a young man, really.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Tippec sniffing in like solvents was quite a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Well then, though, wasn't it? Quite possibly. The first thing that I proper got stuck with was something called Brawax. And I was working at a furniture company and there was a... rejuvenating furniture, and you'd polish it with a wax. Well, they sent me into this room on there where the rest of the work, go wax it out for us. And I'm in there, and I'm waxing it out, and 15 minutes later, my head's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, and I'm walking out. That's mental, that. And that, for me, is probably where things started to slip down the road more than what it actually had been. I mean, the reason I stopped Brow wax sniffing is because I knew some nickets from work. Yeah. Take it home and there'd be me and all my mates all brow wax sniffing. Well, one of my mates got caught by his man. He blew me up. Oh, yeah, fucking John Preston nicked it from work, didn't he? Anyway, so she rang the police about 20 past 12 one night. Bang, bang, bang on the front door. Me old man's gone down and answered it. And then I heard, John, get your fucking ass down here. Went downstairs, there's fucking coppers there, isn't it? Anyway, they just started questioning us about this bra wax and whatever. Yeah, I did, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, gets up next morning, goes to work. Soon as me and my mate got to work, we both got sacked for nicking bra wax. Yeah. Without the door. And probably, I mean, I probably did that until I was about 17, 18. I can still remember us all going in lasers back in the day with bags of eye wax on us and was meant for going out drinking. But we'd be going in the toilet and having a quick last nip as well as drinking as well. We did that for quite a while. I mean, considering I grew up in the rare bird as well, man, I've never used an ecstasy tablet, which is... quite unusual, I would have thought. I used acid and stuff like that. But probably things started going south for me when my son died, basically. So my son was five months old when he died. He died of a cock death. And after that event, it I'm not going to sit here right and say the reason I ended up where I ended up is because my son died. That would be absolutely not the right thing to do. I would never desecrate his memory like that because it's not true anyway. That's the basic point of the fact. It is not true. I never ended up in the position I was in because of my son dying. Now, I've had professionals say to me that it would have impacted me on some of the choices I made after that. I'd probably agree with that because within probably six weeks of him dying, I was in jail. it just went mad I took a lot of sort of like responsibility for him dying. So the circumstances of him dying was, I was working, we had twins, we had Katie and we had Matthew. I'd normally look after Katie and my partner would look after Matthew. I'd got up that morning to go to work and Matthew was awake, so I changed him, fed him, put him back in his cot and went to work. About two hours later, I was working at Aunty on a boat, we was fixing a sewage pipe there that had been run over. Two and a half hours later, I seen my dad come bounding across on this boat with like a face on front of him and I'm thinking, fucking hell, what have I done? Am I in trouble? Have I done something? Someone come on top for me. And he went to my son, get yourself Matthew's dad. I mean, I don't really remember too much after that. I remember getting to the hospital and seeing my mum and my partner and their mum all sort of like huddled in a circle all crying. And as soon as, as soon as, I got there, they took me in to see him in the chapel of rest. It's the hardest thing I've ever had to deal with in all my life. He was in this little white crib and he had all bruises round his mouth and it was just heartbreaking. I can't even begin to tell you. how heartbreaking it was and then me taking responsibility because then my mind started telling me the last thing my son saw was me turn me back on him and walk out the door and leave him to die. Now, I know that in there is not true. I'm not a daft lad and I know that's not true but sometimes what you feel in your heart is different to what you think in your mind. After that really I just buried it with doing the wrong thing. robbing, burgling, fighting, anything really. Anything to make me escape the pain that I was suffering from. Because back in 1989, I didn't get any counselling or anything like that. They gave me 28 to my zip and go sleep off sort of thing. So never really ever had any counselling for it until later on in my life. But that was definitely a major part of my life and the way I am and where I'm currently at I mean the positive side to it is now I'm in a totally different headspace and you know my son stood behind me patting me on the back going dad keep it up I'm proud of you so when people ask me about why is your recovery so strong how come you're really positive and just the way I am being in recovery and I think it's all from that self empowerment it is seeing things differently it is training your brain I reckon to react in a different way But getting back to it, so 19, Matthew died. Can I

SPEAKER_01 7:24

just, obviously, because there's a lot there. And, you know, I think when we talk about reasons for substance misuse, you can tell there's two distinct differences there from obviously, you know, smelling, what was it, wax? Dry wax. Smelling dry wax. Dry wax. Smelling dry wax. And then obviously going to... using substances that you went on to use after the death of your son. Two completely different reasons there, wasn't they? So when he was young, was it just that young experimentation? Or was the reasons for escapism even when he was young?

SPEAKER_00 7:59

I had two older brothers, and our Dean is the one in the middle. And for some reason, I always looked up to him. He was a role model, even though he wasn't living the best life. He was in jail. I mean, he spent probably... The first 10 years of his life, from 16 to 26, probably did seven of them in jail. And I used to think that was pretty cool. And look how Dean, you know, I'd always be talking about him. And the mad thing is every time he went to jail, our Dean was what was called the townie back in the day. So he'd have Sam Murray, he'd have Lois Court, he'd have all these really nice clothes. Well, as long as he went to jail, I had his fucking clothes on, didn't I? And I wanted to be him and be like him. And yeah, maybe... looking back probably want the right thing to look but i don't know i i think i wanted to project this person that i want because probably deep inside i was quite scared and you know like probably any young adult growing up i want 100 confident person uh So looking up to Aldean and seeing him getting into trouble, again, I'm not blaming anybody for the choices that I made. I made my choices on my own free will, but probably I was influenced by role models that really want role models.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

but i think that a lot of people will be able to relate to that anyway i mean we had uh andy on the podcast he was on the festivals we did and we talked about role models in in pop culture and you know when when your role models are do you know rock and roll stars that are doing drugs all the time that's just the word and then we had peter on the podcast and peter spoke about heroin chic and how it was sort of like that look was quite almost desirable people wanted to be something like that and now obviously in you know 2023 would never glamorize that or as role models as such and if it was it'd be quite you know low-key really whereas back in the you know 70s 80s and even 90s really using drugs and using substances and and the rock and roll stars and people that did that it was seen as as cool and i think going back to you know talking about your brother everyone always like idolizes their older siblings don't they because they're doing the things that you're not doing which Obviously, again, in hindsight, you look back and you go, actually, it wasn't the thing to do, but at the time it seemed cool anyway. I think that's completely

SPEAKER_00 10:22

normal. I think we all grow up, don't we? We all have different experiences. Probably the best role model was my dad. I thought I lived the life my dad wanted me to live in the first place because I was all set for going in the army and he had this planned out future because he was from the background of the army. My dad was an hard worker. He was an hard man and he was a disciplinarian and sometimes probably... more than it should have been. But, you know, you grew up back in the 70s and 80s when, if you was not, you got a clip, you got into trouble. But then, to be fair, I was 10 years old and I had the elbow knocking at my door and my first criminal conviction is for shoplifting at 10 years old. It probably says where my life was ending at that point at 10 years old. Yeah, so if I'd have listened to my dad in the first place, quite possibly my life experiences would have been a lot different. But we never, going back to

SPEAKER_01 11:13

that, we never look at our... Obviously, I've got all the respect in the world for my dad. I absolutely love my dad now. But as a kid, my dad was never cool. You never looked up to your dad and idolized him for those reasons because your dad's your dad. But obviously, older siblings are often cool. But then you get to an age where you look at it and you go, hang on, my dad was probably the role model that I needed and the role model that I had. but also the role model that i chose to not take any notice of really and i think that's just that's just growing up isn't it you look at them and you can i think sometimes it's once you once you have children yourself you start to look at the things your parents did and go hang on this makes more sense now i can relate to why he was the way he was and it wasn't sort of punishing me because i'd done something wrong it was because maybe the don't want you to go down that path and when you become a parent yourself you kind of look at having children you think actually I wouldn't want that for them and you relate to your parents more once you become a dad yourself

SPEAKER_00 12:12

I think the mad thing for me Matt is I was brought up in a family with no drug alcohol problems in it my mum and dad never had drug alcohol issues my children have grown up around me I've been jugging all college shows. And all four of them have turned into the most amazing adults any father could possibly want. And I look sometimes and I think, look at you, for you was brought up around what I was doing. But I was brought up in a totally different environment where you would have thought I'd end up being all right. And you would have thought maybe my children would at least follow me into the game that I was playing. But I'm so fortunate that none of them have ever gone down there. And obviously, you see, unfortunately, children follow parents into addiction. I'm just really lucky that my kids saw the damage it did. My kids have always been there for me. They'll never let anybody say anything bad about me. So that tells me I did something right, I hope, because I did bring three of my children up as a single parent throughout my addiction as well, you know, with no social services involvement, you know. I mean... For me, my kids are the most important thing now, and the grandkids. And the thing that I'm the proudest of is my grandkids are never going to suffer the pain my kids suffered. That makes me feel... I'm so proud about where I am, what I've done. I would never lie to them. If they ever ask me why I do the job that I do or anything like that, I will always be upfront and honest with them. But to be fair, I'm upfront and honest with most people. I don't hide behind a veil of shame. That's not saying I don't feel shame.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Yeah, yeah, but you don't hide

SPEAKER_00 13:56

behind it. You know, but I don't hide behind it. Probably the hardest thing of living in recovery is being able to forgive yourself. I found that difficult at times. Even being in recovery 15 years, sometimes I still find them emotions difficult to manage. Most people probably think, oh, your life's great, you just go to bed in your sleep. Now there's nights I go to bed and I'm laid there for three hours without no good sticking me. I'm reinforcing how much shit I was back in the day. But you know what? That's part and parcel of recovery, unfortunately. You have to live with stuff. You have to live with choices that you've made in the past. And it's part of the thing that keeps me moving forward. The shame that I feel for what I was doing is the thing that stops me going, ah, do you know what? I'm going to go back to where I

SPEAKER_01 14:48

came from. So in terms of addiction, do you know, people say there's the argument that you can almost... inherit the disease from your parents. Now, obviously, your parents didn't have any substance misuse problems, but I understand your brother had substance misuse problems. All three of us did. All three of you? Yeah. And then none of your children have had it either as well? My children, and I'm not going

SPEAKER_00 15:14

to say they used weed, but never crack, everywhere, anything in that sense. But yeah, for us, we would... They've never used dependently, but... Yeah. Recreational. Well, do you know what? That was my downfall, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah. Recreational drug deals. Because I thought the next drug that I'll pick up, I'll just put down like the last one. Like that, yeah. You know? So at 22... Me and my partner had just finished, actually. I didn't want my children as a single dad. I'm not saying that I don't love them and whatever, but when we finished, I asked her, can I have Katie for, you know, because I'm back at my mum's, I want my own place. And back in the day, in the early 90s, if you had a kid, you got an house. It was as simple as that. So Katie came to live with me when I was about 22, 23. Stayed at my mum's and dad's for about six months. But the mad thing there is that Luckily, because I was living at my mum's and dad's, I looked after her because she was still a baby. And I was going out to one of my next house and taking Tamazipan every night. And that was probably when I was about 22, 23. And that went on for about, I don't know, I think it was about eight months before I got my first poppy. So for about eight months, I was going to my next house and was using Tamazipan. First thing that I ever injected actually was with that lad. It was a wobbly egg. So back in the day, your Tamazepam was called Gel Fix. And you could inject them. And it was the first thing that I ever did where I injected it in my ankle. And it was shit. And I just thought, that was scary. And it was shit. I'm not doing that again. Anyway, I got my first house. I played rugby for my local pub teams. I had a really good life. I had good friends. Things were good. I'm not saying things were good after my son died, but Probably around about 23, 24 is when my son Adam came to stay with me. He was about 18 months old when he first came. And I was a really good single parent, I think. I was a really good dad. My kids have always been well looked after. I think even though I was hardcore in addiction, I was a really good functioning addict as well. And I was really good at manipulating people and pulling the wool over their eyes and getting them to see something that probably really they didn't see. So I learned to hide stuff pretty early. So anyway, about 23, our Adam had come to live with me. Our Dean had just got into a new relationship with somebody we've had. I started snorting records. So if you don't know what a record is, back in the day, it was called 10 Gs. So a little bit like deep enough, put them on detone, let them dissolve, that's the right way to check them. Well, if you bang them in a needle, 50 ml of hot water and give them a shake it'd break them down well that was probably the second thing that i injected but i didn't inject at that point my hands was just massive with burns like tree trunks it was go on then and it was somebody else who gave me my first hit and wow i can't even tell you what that was like it was it it just blow my mind it was the best feeling And even still, after going on and using probably more hardcore drugs, it was the best feeling that I've ever had from a drug. You hear people who say, you know, I felt that rush from my feet to my head. With a record, you did. You actually felt it come up through you and into your stomach. It would make you gag a bit. But the mad thing about records was they made you be sick quite a lot. But the more you were sick, the more intoxicated you became. So every time you were sick, you were a little bit more intoxicated. So that became a bit of a thing as well, really. You know, like being

SPEAKER_01 19:04

sick. It improved the high sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah, improving the high. So I did Wreck It, I don't know, for about two years. But at this point, I was still... Are Wreck It still about? I'd never heard of them. I'm not sure, if I'm honest. What they say is they'd be up and hopping today. But they'd be up and hopping today and now there's a blocker in it.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Back

SPEAKER_00 19:25

in the day, I don't think there was a blocker in them back in the day. It was people with back issues. So yeah, anyway, I started checking records.

SPEAKER_01 19:34

And at this point, this is, I mean, going back to obviously using the Brywax for Escapism, you'd lost your son. This is for escapism now, isn't it? It's not recreational and it's not just... Is this dependency at this point?

SPEAKER_00 19:53

For the record, it's million percent. That was definitely the first thing that I became dependent on. And how I knew I was dependent on them actually was... So back in the day, you could do fans in jail and have them squashed. And... Warrant Man came and grabbed me at my house when I was living in my first house. But it was really good, actually. And he let me go to my brother's and let my brother and his partner out of the time. Look, they're taking me back in jail. Can you pick the kids up from school and have them for them? And my mum ended up having them in the end anyway, the kids. And that's where I did my first rattle. in old jail.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

I

SPEAKER_00 20:34

fucking laid on my bed and I'm thinking, well, I feel shit, mate. I feel really shit. So you didn't even know you were

SPEAKER_01 20:41

dependent on them

SPEAKER_00 20:41

until you was in jail? No, definitely not. I mean, because all the drugs I've used before, I've never been dependent to use. And like you said,

SPEAKER_01 20:48

recreational. It was recreational. You could always put them down.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

And I think probably... I didn't learn enough from that experience. So I probably did records for about two years. But like I said, I was still playing rugby. I was fit as... Because

SPEAKER_01 21:02

you was functioning. It didn't seem like dependency.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah. You're doing all the... Doing all the normal things. You're still going out on the weekend. Yeah, my life, like, it didn't have that major impact because the wreck, it cost me a pound a day. Is that it? It wasn't like what people now spend on airing and crack where they're spending hundreds and thousands of pounds a day sometimes on it. It was a quid a day. And if I had to throw a bit of resin on at night time, you know, to go over it, some of my habit would probably have costed me. 14 quid a week. It's nothing in the context of what I was getting because I was a single dad. So in that sense, it was definitely records that showed me

SPEAKER_01 21:44

about dependency. So when you was in prison and you're doing this rattle, had you made the link at that time that you're feeling this way because you're not taking the records? How did you come up with that conclusion?

SPEAKER_00 21:57

I think I owe it to you, to be fair. Because of the circle that you go in, people do it. But until it happens to you, I was like, I'll put it down when I'm ready. I don't know what you're all worried about. It's not a problem. It's not a thing. Minimize on it. I was an extreme person. I loved doing extreme things. I was always a risk taker. I think that was part of my problem. I loved to take risks. I loved living on the edge. It gave me something. I don't know what, but it just... Gave me something. It made me feel, I don't know, empowered. Maybe, do you know what? Maybe I was too cocky, too confident, too arrogant. I'm different from everybody else, aren't I? It's not going to get me. And I think my arrogance and my cockiness, well, you can't fucking tell me. I know everything, don't I? I'm a man of the world. But in reality, I didn't know too much and I didn't really understand considering really at 23 you probably think you should know a little bit more how old was you when Matthew

SPEAKER_01 23:03

passed away 19 I was obviously it's like one of these things it's such a such a young I think at that age you're a kid yourself aren't you yeah I mean I only I became a dad last year and even then at 30 I was like this is a lot of responsibility to have so to kind of have that I can't imagine having it at 19 I can't imagine that level of responsibility at that age so To have had that responsibility, to have gone through that grief and that trauma of what you'd gone through, I think it's only natural that you used substances for escapism in the way that you did, really, to summarise up to that point and to go into it. You're a young lad still, and because of that, I mean, your parents will worry about you forever. You're always going to be your parents' baby, no matter how old you get. What was it like for them seeing you go from the death of Matthew to... dependency of drugs.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

What was it like for them? Well, my mum and dad have lost a child as well. So I had a younger brother called Stephen and he died from having an hole in his heart when he was a baby baby, about six weeks old, I think it was. So, you know, Matthew wasn't much older. How old was Matthew? Matthew was five months older when he died. I think the hardest part of that event was when Matthew and Katie was born, they was born like six weeks premature and they only weighed 3.30 pounds. It's a pair of them, they weighed exactly the same weight. Katie was born first, absolutely no problem him out for him. Matthew came out, he was already blown cord round his neck straight to a special baby car unit and it was touch and go then whether he lived or he died but one of the hardest things is he came through that, he made a miraculous recovery and turn around and then getting him home after I think it was about three and a half months before they came home and then getting him home and him coming through that and They seemed to die for no reason because they couldn't give me a reason of why he died. They basically told me what they felt is maybe his brain had sent a shock to his heart and his heart just never restarted again. So we've never, and I think that's the same for everybody who suffers caught dead. There is no real answer for you. of why this event happened. That's

SPEAKER_01 25:20

the thing with, I mean, obviously my daughter's just turned 19 months now, but sudden infant death syndrome, or SIDS as they call it, terrified me. And when you told me about Matthew, I knew we'd spoken about it, you know, obviously I've known you years now, you'd spoken about Matthew to me before, but when you told me about Matthew passing away at five months... My daughter had just turned five months. And I thought I was out of the sudden infant death syndrome, cot death stage then. I remember the fear that I had. Obviously, I'd be putting her to bed and it'd be check, check, check, check. Again, I know there was nothing that happened. But I think the scary thing is, as a parent of a newborn, is knowing something like that can happen. And that sometimes these things can't be... And you're already anxious as a new parent, aren't you? And I think... Obviously, I did it at 30. I've got a little bit more knowledge, wisdom. I'm a little bit more grown up. But to have that at 19, I just think that's an incredible amount of pressure. And then to lose a

SPEAKER_00 26:21

few at that age. I've got grandkids now. And my biggest fear is that it happens to one of my kids. Yeah. I'm so happy when they get past the five-month stage. We've got a little girl currently, and she's not far from the five-month stage. I could never imagine that happening to any of my kids. It is the most darkest part of my life. It's heartbreaking to

SPEAKER_01 26:44

go through it as a parent, but as a... parent of the parents and going back to your parents and how they felt

SPEAKER_00 26:51

that was a really good thing about it though we've got a shared experience so in reality I could actually sit and listen to my dad when it came to that shared experience especially my mum because my mum's my rock my dad at times has kept us at arm lengths for obvious reasons my mum is the one who always put her arm around me and told me it was going to be alright you'll get through this it'll be alright and without that I don't think I would be here today. She never criticised me for any of the choices that I was making. She never looked down at the people I was hanging around with, like smack heads, scumbags, dirt. It was not like that at all. My mam, yeah, we all say this about our mums, don't we? Best mum in the world. Mum, if you're watching this, you're the best person, the most kind-hearted woman I know, and I love you to bits. Of course. All right. Yeah, so, like I said, you know, my mum and dad have that shared experience of losing a child. I mean, in reality, my son dying, it didn't really hit me until the day of his funeral, and I remember being stood on the doorstep, and I looked up straight, and I saw the cars coming down and I went upstairs into the bedroom and I was just absolutely in bits. So I don't remember the journey to the crematorium very well, but I certainly remember the walking. So my son's coffin was about, I don't know, about that

SPEAKER_01 28:16

big.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

And I carried his coffin down to the, when my dad was there with his arm around me. You know, like I said, I think having that shared experience with my parents is, been a good thing. Dad doesn't talk about emotions very often. My dad's a man's man. Older generation as well, isn't he? But the amount of different conversations I've had with my mum, yeah, she's a different level, my mum. My parents, they definitely not deserve the three sons that they've got. A million percent, they deserve three sons with... more credit and credibility to where I know today the seeping's different obviously because you know what I've done but yeah back in the day I just don't really didn't really understand the pain and misery I was causing people I think because I was in so much pain and

SPEAKER_01 29:13

I just wanted

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I just wanted people to feel what I was feeling I think I

SPEAKER_01 29:17

get that I get that completely how did how did the death of Matthew affect your the relationship with Matthew and Katie's mum?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

I mean, we had two more kids after it, but I would have said, My ex, she just didn't deal with it very well. So his remembrance was 16 for June, just gone. And it's the first time she's ever come to where we've laid his ashes to rest, because we laid his ashes to rest on the dock just after I got out of jail. An event happened, but I'd rather not discuss that. No, no, we don't have to. I can discuss that with you later. But an event happened, and I think it was very immature, to be fair. He was trying to live like an adult-grown-up relationship, and there was no adult-grown-up relationship to it. I'd cheat on her, she'd cheat on me. I want the greatest boyfriend, if I'm honest. But again, probably being young and naive, I thought, you control people like that, don't you?

SPEAKER_01 30:22

This is what I'm saying, your kids in itself. If I could give advice to anyone, it would be have children later in life. Because I think not resentment towards children, but I think in a way there's a level of resentment towards each other and your partners. And maybe you might feel like you haven't done the things you wanted to do, what you thought you was going to do, and that resentment will manifest in different ways. But having a child as well, that's when you're in each other's life forever. I mean, in terms of my own life, getting married to my wife was one thing. We could get divorced and never see each other again. We got a mortgage together. Again, we could separate, never see each other again. But once you have children with someone, you know, birthdays, maybe your kids' weddings. you're in your life forever now that's

SPEAKER_00 31:12

the moment where you're in

SPEAKER_01 31:13

your life forever

SPEAKER_00 31:14

I mean me and Don are a lot older now as well we get on really really well now it's like the events that happened in the past never really happened you know our kids and grandkids are gorgeous and they're happy and that's what counts for me and just like you said my kids weren't that in Wonderland because I mean our Paddy's just having a new baby now and he's 37 you know and it's 15 years between his first one and this one so my full deal man But I think you'll enjoy it because he's having a little girl as well and he's got a boy. But I think today, when you look at the full aspect of your life, I'm a lucky man. I'm a really, really lucky man that I've got four beautiful kids. I've got grandkids. I've got two parents who adore me. I've got two brothers who need a kick up their ass sometimes. But I always felt like I was the oldest when I was the youngest and most maturest out of me and my brothers. But again... Yeah, I was really good at making bad choices, I think. Yeah. I didn't even have to practice then. It just fucking came really easy. Go on then, I'll do that. I think I was more of a sheep, wasn't I? I just followed the flock, really, rather than now I consider myself today. I'm the shepherd, mate. I'm in charge of my flock. No longer does the flock dictate what I'm doing with me. I dictate to my flock, and I think that works really well, especially in my recovery and seeing it in a different way to how a lot of people might see their own recovery.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

So going forward, From, you know, injecting records, did you move on to heroin? Not straight away. Went how long? Give me the story of

SPEAKER_00 32:51

how that came about. How it came to using heroin. So I was 27. So I was quite old, really. I'd stopped records years before. I think I only used records up to when I was 24. Did you have to do like a detox or anything? I had to do a rattle. Yeah, okay, just went through a rattle. Just went through a rattle to get off D, but there was other drugs to do that rattle, you know, as you do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I did my rattle, smoked weed, really, for the next three years, not really taking hardcore stuff. Like I said, I was playing rugby. I mean, I was fit as a fiddle.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

I was. I can see you smiling now, thinking, oh, those were the days

SPEAKER_00 33:31

when I could run more than two minutes. I think to me, the reason it makes me smile is because I had such a good life and I threw so much away for one bad choice, really. You know, I was 27. My relationship had proper broken down. Because even though I... Katie, when I was 23, me and Donna were still seeing each other and sleeping with each other and stuff. And that relationship finally broke down when I was about 26, 27. So at that point, I started going to my brother's. Well, he was already using heroin at this point. And within, look, I didn't take heroin because anybody in that building went you're going to use this and that's how it is my naivety of going wrong place wrong time go on and I'll have a go on that I never knew at that point where the next 10 years was going to go I didn't sink my hand in the air and go do you know what fuck it I'll be a smack head for 10 years it sounds like a right laugh mum and dad will be proud my kids will be proud it wasn't like that again I should have known better because of the records and that but I didn't care. Obviously, I didn't care enough to give it enough forethought to go. That's not a very good thing. You shouldn't be making this choice. Go on.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Obviously, like you've said, there was no counselling. There's no way at this point you'd have processed the loss of Matthew.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

I ain't processing it now. I'm 53 years

SPEAKER_01 34:59

old. I guess that continued escapism is going to be a theme in where your life was going. Had that thought of... loss and bereavement contributed at that time? Or was it just a spare of the moment? You're using, I'll have something.

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yeah, I had nothing to do with the bereavement. None of my drug users ever had anything to do with the bereavement. Like I said, I would never sit here and put that on. Yeah, I completely understand that. Because I'd be lying, you know. Now, that was the case. I would hand on that, go, this is the reason why. But a million percent it wasn't. It was... a naive choice. I had a good life, like I said. I was now bringing two of my children up. I had a good background. I had a good life behind me. I was working. I was doing the right thing. Just one choice. I mean, where it took me in the next 10 years is... is a place that nobody probably ever would want to go. But again, I hid it really, really well.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Talk me through those 10 years then. What was the worst moment in that 10 years of heroin use that you experienced?

SPEAKER_00 36:07

There's a couple. There's two that stand out. So I was injected in my groin, in my right leg. And my right leg had swollen up to about... twice the size of what it currently is. It was really, really painful. But like most addicts back in the day, I'll sort it tomorrow. I'll sort it tomorrow. I remember standing up. We'd just scored when we was going to use. And I remember standing up. And as I stood up, where I used to inject in my groin, there was an hole. And it just popped. And all of a sudden, this brown, green, stinking, horrible, gooey stuff just started squirting out of my groin like a... like a fountain. And I'd have been at home, it was about, I don't know, about that far, about that high. While I was filling that up with this green, brown, stinking shit, ah, I'd just go in the other side. So all that squirting out of there, I mean, that side doing exactly the same to that side as what I'd done to that side. But here, you know, that's the cons,

SPEAKER_01 37:11

pros

SPEAKER_00 37:11

and

SPEAKER_01 37:11

cons of what I was doing. What was the logic? Talk me through that logic, because obviously that sounds insane. This is happening to this lake. I don't know what I'll do. I'll use the other one. It was easy, wasn't

SPEAKER_00 37:21

it? I didn't value myself today. You know, if I die, who's going to fucking miss me? Yeah. You know? I mean, my mindset then was people would be better off without me anywhere. I'm not fucking God. It had been reinforced for me. You know, I'm probably one of the few that actually still lives in the same house that I had my habit on and the estate that I grew up on. Yeah. You know, so on my estate, I'd gone from everybody liking me, being a really popular person, to within... weeks of me starting to use heroin going into a smack head. You know, probably for me, the most hurtful part of that period of my life. I'm telling you, I'm sat here saying I had this great life and had these great mates. Not one of them ever came and knocked on my door and went, what the fuck are you doing? Come and get back to rugby. Come on, what the fuck are you doing? Don't be doing this. Not one of them. Instantly, hands washed to me, you're a fucking smack head. You're no good. And then all that was reinforced for the 10 next year. It was how shit I was and how bad I am. And how much of a scumbag I am. And I took that on, didn't I? You know, you get told something enough, you believe it.

SPEAKER_01 38:26

You believe it, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

You know? It's like that no good stick, innit? I'm no fucking good, mate. I'll never change. Yeah. And that's basically what I did for years. Why should I change? I'm no good. Nobody cares about me. I didn't even care about myself.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

How can you expect other people to care about you when you don't even care about yourself? All

SPEAKER_00 38:44

the responsibility lies at my door. It doesn't lie at anybody else's door. I was the one who made them choices for whatever reasons. It was me who went, go on then. Naively. So what happened in that moment then? Filling this bin up with... Well, like I said, I'm filling this bin up in my living room, fucking, and I'm in the other side injecting. Was you by yourself at the time? No, I was with my partner. Yeah, yeah. With my partner. Yeah, just, yeah. It's what you did, wasn't it? You know, I was living the lifestyle that what you did is just what you did. It came with part of you. It was like, you don't accept it. It's just what it is. I'd used all my burns. I was such a bad injector. My practices was absolutely fucking shit. And now I know what I know about arm reduction being an arm reduction work. I can understand why I'm his age as quick as it did. You know, but I was listening to street doctors back in the day, weren't they? How many rational people would let somebody inject them with something? Let alone it not be heroin. It could be anything. You know, what rational person does that? Not many rational people do that. So what

SPEAKER_01 39:52

was this then? Did you go to doctors with this?

SPEAKER_00 39:55

No. no eventually I ended up going to hospital with my leg and I had a DVT in it but again that stigma down at the end of the ward curtain around me you know there's 30 people on the ward they've got their curtains around them so again stigmatised for what I'm doing to myself I understand it but that doesn't make it acceptable you know I think a lot of good things have actually come out of my addiction to be fair I'm a more rounded person than I've ever been a million percent I am And I think that's because of my own experience of stigma for choices that I was making. Like I said, I wasn't a bad person. I was making bad choices. A million percent, I'd agree with that. I always knew deep down inside I was better than what I was doing to myself. I just didn't know how to escape it. Luckily for me, my two brothers got clean before me. So when it became my time, And again, I fell into two old friends as well who was both in recovery. So I had four people around me already in recovery. I didn't even know what recovery was. You know, I wanted a service. I was a doctor. Here, I just get back off. I just get back off, you know. So my detox and getting clean was done around people who was already doing it. And again, I've never been in services, so none of us knew about total abstinence. I've been in recovery 15 years, but I've only been 100% clean for the last 12. Because my first three years, I was drinking three times a week, I was going out on a weekend, I was having a line of coke, I was still involved in that. But I'm not using heroin anymore, I'm not on methadone. Life's fucking back to normal, back to being happy. Again, not really understanding that that next thing could have become my next thing. Yeah. And then when I was 37 and when

SPEAKER_01 41:48

I started throwing my life out... Actually, just before we go into the recovery, you said there was two rock-bottom moments.

SPEAKER_00 41:53

Tell me the second one as well. The second rock-bottom moment is probably the one that I shot most. There was an injection in my penis.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

To be able to listen to the audio version, they won't see my face there, but explain... Explain that. I've never heard of anybody. I know there's veins there. My last thing would be to thinking I'm going to inject into...

SPEAKER_00 42:16

I've gone in places where people probably wouldn't know because they don't know the history of probably injecting. So my neck. Yes. My neck was the first place that I went in. Someone else did it for me. It was the most scariest thing that I'd ever done and that only ever happened once. It never happened again. And the reason I ended up growing in my penis was because now my groins are knackered. I can't get them. I've got no brains. I'm putting 20 quids off a gear in a spoon, cooking it up, and going to having it. And three hours later, I've still got it in my hand, and now it's full of blood, and it's shit, and it's congealed. And in fairness, when you do get it, it's pointless because it's not any good anymore. So absolutely desperate. I was rattling my tits off. And I thought, you know what? This is a good idea. This is a good idea. How? How did you look at me? This is a good idea. I think the reward obviously outweighed the risk, didn't it? Right, right, yeah. You know, a bit like my neck. I would have said that personally. A bit like my neck, right? When I injected in my neck, I didn't consider it. If anything, I've only got one fucking head, haven't I? You know, you fucked that. A bit like my knob. You know, if something had gone wrong... I'd have been abstinent for the rest of my life if I'd have been cut off, wouldn't I? But, yeah, I was desperate. I wouldn't say I was rattling because I wasn't, but I was just desperate to use. Anyway, you know, I sit on the edge of my toilet, I've got my case around my hand, I'm fucking shitting like fuck and sweat's pouring down, I've got my cock in my hand. Got it first time, oh, fucking hell. And it just gives you that feeling like it would anywhere else. So that created a second charge in it, didn't it? Well, that time it went like jet black and it didn't look good. So that was when I decided to smoke it, actually. And that was a godsend of all godsends, to be

SPEAKER_01 44:10

fair. So, to be fair, because obviously you can educate me on this one a little bit, but I've never thought about that. If you're in that position... You're in addiction. You've got nowhere to inject. That idea of I'll just smoke it instead doesn't seem like an option to a lot of people. It wasn't really an option to me. No, no, but that's what I mean. Instead, as you've just said then, you'll find the most riskiest place to inject it. How come that isn't really a thing that people think of? Like, I'll tell you what, I'll just smoke it instead. How come people don't have that as a logical

SPEAKER_00 44:43

solution? Because of the difference between smoking heroin and injecting heroin. What is

SPEAKER_01 44:47

that? Well...

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Obviously, when you're injecting heroin, you're getting the full whack, aren't you? Every little bit of it. Straight into the bloodstream. Straight into the bloodstream, straight to the brain, bang. When you're smoking it, 25% of it's going up the side of the tilt air and burning away on the foil. So if you're buying a tenner bag and you smoke it, you're probably going to get six and a half quids off after what's gone up the side and what you do burning it. But smoking was better than not using it. In all fairness. But when I started smoking it, I was only psychologically fixing myself. I know that now. And I not wanted to sit around and gouch off it. But that being said, right, I wasn't really a gouchy person. And that's why I functioned really, really well. You know, we see a lot of old types, don't we? They'll use and that's it for five hours. It definitely wasn't like that for me at all. You know, I had deals with my children was at school when I was in bed on a night time. I never ever use around my children. But the naivety of that is, you think your children don't know. I was about to say, did they know then? Now my children are adults and we can sit down. You've had these conversations, yeah. I'm a very... I like to take responsibility. So if my kids say to me, this happened, I would never stand there and go, no, it fucking didn't. Although I know I was off my tits most of the time. So they dressed me up as a woman once. I have no recollection of it, but they'll have their heads off at it. And I would never sit there and go, that didn't happen. And there's horrible stuff in there as well. There was a few times that my children found one mills in the house. You know, but that blind naivety, your own belief is, they don't know what's happening, they're only kids. But the older adults have told me, you know, when my bedroom door was shut, they didn't know I was in there injecting and taking drugs, but they knew something was going on in there. So that affected them as children. You know, my kids got so bullied. and picked on because of what I was... I mean, there was times when I'd have 30 people outside my house wanting to wear me in. Not because I was out burgling people or doing bad things, because I was an alien addict. Pure and... You know what the worst part is? The people who was outside criticising me, I was scoring my fucking drugs off their parents. You know, those terrifying, my children, those coming to my house. Walk up one day with fucking smack heads spread all over my house and that scumbag get out. You know, so I set my back garden on fire. Nearly killed me in a fucking arson attack. Yeah, it was like...

SPEAKER_01 47:24

All just because you...

SPEAKER_00 47:25

Because I took everything. Like I said, I wasn't out baggling people, Matt. I wasn't doing bad things, you know. I was bringing my children up. My partner was a manager of Belmont Club and all and I showed her earning £600 a week we didn't claim together i was getting 250 quid a week for my kids we could spend 400 quid a week on gear and it not find out she impacts us

SPEAKER_01 47:45

yeah

SPEAKER_00 47:45

you know we still went on holiday we still had internet we had a car we had everything what you would call normal people had except we took everyone you know that's

SPEAKER_01 47:55

all why do you think there was this negative stigma attached to you then and this this prejudice and hurt that you experienced

SPEAKER_00 48:02

you're smacking at you You're lower than the lot, aren't you? People just check it upon themselves. They think they know you and they think they know what you're doing. People need a villain, don't they? The bad thing is, right, Matt, and this is the same for everybody who's caught it, if you're read, smack head Rob's pensioner of money, it's not just him, is it? It's everybody who now uses heroin, it's just like that. And you get tired with that brush. Like I said, I want a bad person.

SPEAKER_01 48:31

It goes back to what you're saying about your former thoughts of racism and things like that. And it's partly the same thing, isn't it? Things you see in newspapers and you instantly go, ah, I get it, I connect with it, I understand it, and therefore you just tar everybody with the same brush. Obviously you spoke then about experiencing that level of stigma and prejudice for being, quote-unquote, smackhead. Do you still live in that estate or that area? Yeah, I still live in the same house I had my habit in. So, I was going to say, I thought you said that. So, what's the sort of reaction to you now that

SPEAKER_00 49:08

you're... It's obviously a lot more positive. Yeah, yeah. People actually nod at you and let on to you. Some people are just like, yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah. But... It's been a good response, I think. I've never had nobody knocking at my door in the last 15 years anyway, giving me grief for being a baghead. It has been really positive because I am quite well known. On me, I say I'm quite well known in services now because of what I do. But I think the recovery part of my life, the proper recovery part of my life, has probably been a really, really positive experience. What

SPEAKER_01 49:44

brought that on then? To go through everything that you've gone through, and again, I know the two aren't attached, But going through the grief and bereavement and then going through dependency and those issues that you had there, what was it that brought you to the point where you thought, right, it's time to

SPEAKER_00 50:02

stop? I was 37 now, so I'd been using probably 10 years. Like I said, my physical health wasn't great. Me and my partner were still together. When my partner ended up leaving, because she was the biggest breadwinner in the house, it took 600 quid a week out of the household. Two weeks later, one Saturday, I woke up and I had my mum on me money, I had my fucking drug dealer on me money, and I just thought, you know what, I can't keep doing this anymore, something needs to change. Well, I had a mate, and again, I'll come to something which is really positive as well later on, but yeah, I had a mate, so... I went and borrowed more money off my man, 28 quid, and bought 28 benzos. So at 37, I was using 50 quid a day and injecting 50 quid a day. Wasn't really into tablets and stuff like that. So I went and got 28 quid, went and bought 28 benzos. I was with Dr. Weir, so he'd given you anything except for a script. Started to do my rattle, basically, from the team for Ghia back then. I was on six of them and a methadone as well at this point. So over about seven days, I did my rattle from using the team for Ghia down to stopping. But the first three months was probably quite a bit of a miss. I'd not used for three days and then maybe used for one, but then not used for five days and used for three. But I think the days that I was not using was... then being reinforced that I can actually go through a day without needing COs. And then I had the impact of my two brothers already being in recovery and my two friends being in recovery. My kids being rarely supported. Did me rattle down to my meth over two weeks. Obviously, again, because I was with Dr. Ian, there was no detox. I was going to say, was there a

SPEAKER_01 51:56

detox or a structure to

SPEAKER_00 51:57

it? So the structure was by my pharmacist, a Spanish guy called Antonio. If it weren't for Antonio, trust me, I wouldn't be sat here today. He believed in me. As soon as I went into my pharmacy and said, Antonio, look, mate, I'm doing this and I want to do that. He went to me, right, this is what I think we should do. I think you should go see a doctor with you and reduce three mil a fortnight. I went, are you sure? He went, mate, trust me, go see a doctor with you. I'll support you through it. We'll get you through it. And it was the most amazing experience. The first time a true professional had looked at me without stigma, without judgment, and with just care. understanding. It's insane

SPEAKER_01 52:37

that a pharmacist had to take on that responsibility though, isn't it? Knowing what I know now of a service like Renew and what we have, that a pharmacist was the one that had to be that point of encouragement. It

SPEAKER_00 52:48

was like God, wasn't it? It was the angel sent to me. And I'd known him for years because I knew that chemist for years. And I think it was something he instilled in me.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

And it's even nicer to believe, even more so, using that chemist for years and still believed in you and not just having that opinion of areas for his methadone and then he's going to, you know what I mean, to still have that belief in you is wonderful. It's really nice to hear that. Like I say,

SPEAKER_00 53:14

without that plan, without being able to move forward, without my four new people who was, I mean, like I said, we didn't know what recovery was then. We would never have considered ourselves in recovery or anything like that or abstinence, all that sort of stuff. So when I struggled, Paddy, I feel like you. Then right, Dad, get dressed. We're taking the van to park. So I was really good at picking the phone up when I was struggling. Yeah. But I was really self-determined as well. So I was just starting getting clean. I was still in that circle of people. And then someone came knocking on my door. All right, Matt, if you want to take us to Manchester to get some... Jokes. I keep wondering, yeah, no fucking problem. Anyway, I ends up taking him to Manchester on the way back outside Willy Bull Postal. No, no, no. I'll fucking help all the artillery. I'm getting out the car. You can do what you want. Anyway, pulled over. I got out the car. Fucking coppers came. Traffic cops was there, weren't they?

UNKNOWN 54:10

Uh,

SPEAKER_00 54:11

This cop has a big bag of beers like that. He's walking to the back of the car and he's going to the camera. This is what these scumbags bring into the world to kill our children with. I'm thinking, oh no, please. This can't be happening to me. This is fucking mental. Ended up getting put on remand for a month. And I hadn't been to jail since I was like 23. So it's a good 20 plus fucking years. Do you know what though? Again, I think that experience was one of the things that kicked me up my asses as well. So I was 37, touching 38. You know, I was still responsible for my three children. You understand the weight of it at that age, don't you? Yeah. Again, you know, when you're in an environment... I'm an estate lad. I was brought up with an estate mentality. A grass is a grass is a grass sort of idiotic. Yeah, yeah, no. So being involved in Gunner Manchester... Didn't seem like a big thing. You know what the cop I said when he was walking to the back of his car was absolutely a million percent bang on wanted. I was bringing drugs into our town to kill fucking mad. people, basically. But your naivety or lack of understanding or whatever you want to call it, you're just worried about yourself. You don't give a fuck about anybody else, do you? They don't care about me. Why should I care about them? I'm only going to Manchester to get these. It's not like he's selling it to 13-year-olds. He's selling it to people who use these. A bit like when I sold for a while, I was only selling heroin to heroin addicts. I wasn't selling it to people who never used. You

SPEAKER_01 55:44

don't feel like you're

SPEAKER_00 55:45

doing harm. It was part of that circle, you know, then things come with that lifestyle, don't they? You know, that criminality lifestyle, negative things come to it. You always find

SPEAKER_01 55:55

a way to justify it, won't you? It's not until you look back and go, actually, yeah, that copper was right. A

SPEAKER_00 56:01

million percent. And I think, again, you know, one of the good things now, I'm really good at being responsible and understanding that there's only one person responsible for the choices that you're making and that comes from within yourself. Like I said, if I'd have lived the life my dad wanted me to live, It would have been totally different. It probably a million percent would have been if I'd have joined the army. Saying that, I could have been fucking killed in the army

SPEAKER_01 56:26

though, couldn't

SPEAKER_00 56:27

I? Exactly. So you don't know where your life's going to go depending on what choices you make.

SPEAKER_01 56:32

I think that's where things like the thought of fate and destiny actually can be quite comforting because rather than looking back at your life and thinking what could have been or should have done this and should have done this, in a way sometimes it is a little bit comforting to think... everything happens for a reason and everything happens so i could be sat in this chair right now like not to sit in this chair right now but i'm exactly where i'm supposed to be right now i think that's the only way really to find comfort in everything that we go through from you know trauma to the best experiences of our lives you know it all

SPEAKER_00 57:05

I think what's nice now, I've got to spread with a good conscience, a clear mind, not feeling guilty.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

I know you always struggle around the time of June and obviously June 16th in particular.

SPEAKER_00 57:16

I mean, I've had loads of counselling around Matthew, the thing that happened with Matthew, and it has helped, but it hasn't changed it. No. The pain still resides within me. My kids know when I'm struggling because the first text I'll send them is, I love you. And then they'll all congregate together and go, what's up with my dad? It's not that I don't send them. I love you.

SPEAKER_01 57:43

I know. You're obviously thinking something to prompt yourself.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

Well, I'm quite an emotional person now. I've learned to manage how I feel. Whereas before, like most men, we're men, aren't we? We're not meant to feel this. Feel emotional. Share emotion. Share emotion. You know, probably one of the hardest things. I love it, and it makes me cry, and I love watching it. It's a bit of a sucker for punishment. Like, Britain's Got Talent, America's Got Talent kids. Seeing them get the Golden Buzzer. I love seeing it, but it then reinforces the loss that I felt. My son never got that opportunity, never got that choice. But seeing it is absolutely amazing as well. So... Even still, I think there'll always be a lot of different mix of emotions. Because you're always going to wonder what

SPEAKER_01 58:29

could have been, what could Matty have grown up to be, what job would he be doing? Them thoughts, I think it'd be only natural to think those.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

I think I probably know how we would have been

SPEAKER_01 58:39

today.

SPEAKER_00 58:39

Because if he had a little bit of Katie in him, and a little bit of Adam, and a little bit of Paddy, and a little bit of Danielle, he'd be the most amazing person in the world. That's nice. Because he's got a little bit of all of them, you know. That's how I like to look at it now. I like to look at it in the positive. It was the first year, actually, that I hadn't needed any counselling around his death. As you know, I had a bit of a life experience in January. I've run a stroke myself and I think... having that stroke has led me to live more in the area now and to not live back in what was and what's been and gone and the things that I can't change. So I think that certainly helped this year. And like I said, me and my partner and Katie, we all went to the river and put some flowers there and we stayed there for an hour and we had a reminisce and it was really, really nice. It wasn't sad, we didn't cry, we weren't upset. So I think having that little bit of a scare certainly helped me look that stuff with a little bit of a different perspective with that, without a shadow of a doubt.

SPEAKER_01 59:39

So just going back to like the detox and stuff, you know, I know Antonio was a big help for that and what you've gone through. Did you go, because obviously, did you go through like a... 12-step approach to maintain sobriety as well. Sometimes I speak to people being on a 12-step program almost envious of how at peace and with everything how this this this support structure like just going back to the idea of men being men do you know i saw something recent say when when you're at your dinner for as a man when you're at your darkest place who do you call and i was like well nobody yeah you just suck it up and get on with it you might pass a comment to a friend here and there so i just struggle a little bit but for the most part you just suck it up but to have that support network and i think obviously more of a support network is needed for someone with, you know, that addiction and that all or nothing mentality and how, you know, living every day as it comes, each day as it comes, one by one. How do you maintain sobriety then now? Is it the sort of, because obviously from this entire conversation, family has been the biggest part of you, you know, what we spoke about here. Not to paraphrase as such, but would you say the family is that higher power that you've needed to maintain sobriety or...?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

I don't think it is, no. I think it's just an inner determination. Knowing that I was better than what I was doing to myself in the first place, I just didn't know how to escape it in the early times. Now, obviously the job that I do really helps.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:20

Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

because you see people at their worst, don't you? At their worst. I see them at their best. I see all stages. I see abscesses, blood clots, everything that I had, I see on a daily basis. Now, if you're seeing that daily and that doesn't reinforce them with you, then probably you don't be working what I'm doing. You know, I'm a needle exchange worker, as you well know. And I mean, the needles aren't used to that long. And people go to me, how can you do a needle exchange now when you're used to injecting? I just said to them, look, I've trained my brain to think differently right now. So it's not like a trigger for you. So it's not like a trigger. So I'll get a needle out and I'm doing a thing here and I'll open it and I go to them, you know, back in the day, I looked at that and looked at it and went, yeah, you what? Now I look at it and I think, did I really do that? Was I really pushed? The reality is, yeah, I was. And that, again, is one of them things. That helps me stop forgetting where I came from. Really sad this weekend, one of my onlookers, dad, in the 15 years I've been in recovery, I've seen way too many of my old friends die. Way, way too many. From a lack of understanding, it does happen to you. Like most academics, it doesn't happen to me. It'll happen to them, but it doesn't happen to me. So you're saying about dependency, what happened to me, I'll be fine. Yeah, if you've never been over in your life, you ain't going to go over, are you? It's not one of them things that'll happen to you, is it? But I've seen addiction destroy families. Another couple of my mates, partners, both dead, really young. Left four kids behind, all under fucking 15, three of them under 10 at that point. My recovery sometimes is dedicated to the people who's that, to the people that I know. You know, because they'll all be looking down, a bit like me, someone else will be at me, patting me on the back, going, Dad, keep it up, I'm proud of you. I try and instill that with the people that I work with. There's no judgment from me. I'm not better than anybody because I've learned to live my life differently. I've just learned to live my life differently. He does sit there waiting for his opportunity. So a lot of recovery is understanding, isn't it, I think. You know, out of the blue, I'll get a bath, because I've got no veins. If I get a bath, a vein comes up in my calf there, and if my eye sees out the corner and my subconscious mind goes to me, oh, it'd be nice. So I know a million percent he's sat there waiting for his opportunity, isn't he? I've learnt to manage him. So when that happened in the first go, that'd been there all day. It wouldn't be in there for like 30 seconds or a minute or whatever it is now because now it's in, not wanting it. It's straight out. But again, that's them skills that you learn in recovery, isn't it? I've learned to manage urges and cravings. I've learned to manage my own shame, you know. That is my own stuff. I love the job that I do. I love being empowered by every form of recovery, be it 12-step, be it therapeutic. However you got there, you got there. Praise you all. I'm a big believer of everybody is the same. Nobody's better than nobody because of the choices that people are making. I don't know somebody else's life and why they are in the position they're in. For me, I feel the reason I ended up where I ended up is I was too big-headed, too naive, too I'm better than this. you know when in reality what a mad way to look at it because I want and anybody can end up where I ended up trust me nobody intentionally ends up being an heroin addict or a crackhead or an alcoholic or you know I think sometimes people out there think people have these life achievements I want to be an heroin addict it sounds like it would be fucking great doesn't it it was never really like that for me recovery has always been something that's been self empowered from within me. There's only me who can keep me clean. No one else can do that. There's only me who can deal with the thoughts, the shame that I feel sometimes, the guilt that I feel, the pain that I caused my parents, the pain that I caused my children. You know, that's my parents to bear. That's part of living in recovery. You have to live with them choices that you made. Nobody else can do that for you. And once you can put that in a place that it's all right with you, then... That's absolutely fine. But for me, the only thing that gets you today is walking the walk. We've all heard it for long enough. My mum and dad heard it for fucking years. You know, yeah, I'm doing great. Ten minutes later, my voice changes. You know, so... I mean, for the first three years, my dad didn't believe I had that care at my house, which was totally understandable. Can you lend me 20 quid? I need some gas and electric. I want the receipts. I'm 18 months clean at this point. What do you mean you want the receipts? But I 100% respect where he was coming from. You know, trust and stuff like that has to be... It's got to be earned. It's got to be earned. You respect. You've got to earn that back. You know, I know how people see me now. I've been shouting recovery is great for 15 years. What couldn't I look like if I went back to where I came from? You know what I mean? So again, it is about having good things in your life. Why would I want to throw away what I've got? I'm the most luckiest person in the world. I've got a fabulous family. I've got a great team of people who I work around. People care about me just for the sake of caring about me. There's no incentive there. That's what recovery is about for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:01

do you see people obviously you do the needle exchange you see people every day what is the one bit of advice that you like to give or want to give to people who ever listen to this or people you see in the new exchange About recovery.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:13

Believe in yourself. Only one person's going to change this. Yes, people will be around to support that, but when it comes down to it, there's only one person who can do it, and it's yourself. You've got to find that belief, that drive, that understanding, learning about yourself again. I'm a totally different person after 37 than I was between the first 37 years of my life. I was a cock. That's the bottom line. Since then, I've become... Well, I think I've always been a caring person and an emotional person, you know. Not many people at 23, back in 1993, was bringing their kids up on their own as a single parent. I think I was the first male, definitely, on my estate where I lived, who was bringing up my children on my own, you know. I was a good dad. I always have been a good dad, but I was very good at making bad choices within that as well, you know. My kids had trouble. What would my kids say about me? I think they would say we we're really proud of my dad and what he's done. But they know the real me. Like I said, if I send them a love you, they always know that. I've watched them and that's upset me or it's got me a little bit emotional. And I see them all the time. Yeah, I'm lucky, aren't I? I'm a one percenter. There's not many of

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

us. Not many who get to do it, yeah. You know. So obviously we've got the recovery walk up this year, September 23rd. First time it's come to halt as someone who's been in recovery as yourself for, do you know, 15 years in the way that you have. Any comments on the recovery walk that's come to halt? First instinct was,

SPEAKER_00 1:08:47

I'm not going on that. Really? Yeah. Why? Shame kicks in. Ah, interesting. Okay. I don't want people looking at me like I'm some junkie. Yeah. But then obviously the other part of me kicks in. No, be proud of what you've done. You're empowering people. You're supporting people like yourself. So, yeah, the first instinct was I'm not going. That's interesting. I'm not bringing that shame on, you know. But I've looked at it, I've worked it, I've put it in my mind. It's the first one I'm going to be going to, actually. Oh, is it? Because that's what I felt the first time that I was invited to go to Liverpool and do that. Yeah, yeah. I'm the only person... Out of my circle of friends, I was clean. And I had a big circle of friends. I've lost a lot of them friends. But I'm the only person who was clean out of that circle of friends. That tells you. summit about 1% of and they don't come very often and when they do come we've got to make the most of them we've got to help you know I love empowering people into change I hope that everybody I meet I touch with a little bit of summit that makes their life a little bit easier you know I'm not looking for the big let's get clean and

SPEAKER_01 1:10:05

let's do the song and dance you can be someone else's Antonio that's the one thing

SPEAKER_00 1:10:09

you've got to remember yeah that's brilliant yeah exactly And I think, yeah, you've written a nail on the head, haven't you? I am that Antonio. You are. That compassionate, caring, no-judgment person. And I think that's why people enjoy working with

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

me. I think that's why people resonate with you and with everything that you do as well so much. But, no, John, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I've got a series of questions that I ask every one of our guests just to end the podcast on a light-hearted note. And my first question is, what is your favourite word? Man. Nice. Least favourite word? I'm

SPEAKER_00 1:10:47

not going to say that. Cunt. No, smackhead. Yes, okay, yeah. Any derogative term, something, head, crackhead, baghead, smackhead, elkhead, whatever, yeah. Favourite sound? I love music. Anything in particular? Anything, really. I got a bit of pelvis recently, but generally any music. I love music. Least favourite sound?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:14

Purvis crying. Understandable. Favourite curse word?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:27

You cock. You're cocking. Yeah, I love saying that on the graph. You're a cock. You're a cock. Someone's

SPEAKER_01 1:11:32

a cock, yeah. Oh, Rob, you're going to have to tell me out here. Profession. Yeah, I've got profession. I was going to work for that. If you wasn't doing the profession that you was doing, if you wasn't working as a harm reduction worker, what else would you be doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:44

Do you know what? When Matthew died, I was actually working on boats on the ocean, like I said, and we was working with divers that day. I'd have loved to have been a diver, I think. Nice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

What's your... Worst job. that you could ever imagine doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:01

Oh, I've had the worst job you can ever imagine doing. That was putting peanuts on a cake for fucking 12 hours. Peanuts on a cake? Peanuts on a cake. Hey, Scott, you've got to tell me that one before we go. At that cake factory, you know, where they come round and they put it on a conveyor belt and you just put a peanut on top of each cake. Is that it? A walnut whip. Oh, nice. Yeah. For how long, like, eight hours a day? 12 hours it was. Fucking 12 hours of hell. Putting a peanut on a cake. Yeah, I've never done 12 hours rattling, Matt. Yeah, I

SPEAKER_01 1:12:28

couldn't wait. Tell me something that excites you. Family. Life. Something that doesn't excite you. Dying. And then lastly, on the topic of dying actually, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the pearly gates? If heaven exists.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

Oh, do you know what? One of my friends, a couple of years ago, I worked with Dad, and I went to his funeral. Now, if my funeral was anything like his, I'd be the most happiest person in the world. It was standing room only, and he had the same background as me, and he'd built the same life I'd built. So sometimes you do think, don't you, I wonder what my funeral will be like. I wonder what people will say about me. I wonder if it'll be the positives or the negatives. So I think for me, what... I'd love to be able to look in on my funeral and just see who comes. I mean, I've had a lot of bereavements over the last couple of years, and I lost a really, really close friend to a brain aneurysm. And I went to his funeral, and he was one of the lads that I played rugby with as well. And when we was in our late teens, we had... As you can imagine, playing in a rugby team of 15 people, we had a big, big circle of friends. Not one person from our rugby team went to his funeral. Not even one of the mates who we all grew up with, except for me and his brother, was at his funeral. For me, I don't want my funeral to be like that, if I'm honest. I would like to think I've built up enough respect that even people who maybe I've not seen for a long time would end up coming to my funeral.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:22

So if not God, then what would you like to hear somebody say at your funeral about you? About you and the life that you lived?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:33

Oh, it's a hard one, isn't it? I don't know, I just... You know, when you've lived in that no good, that no good stick of your own. It's

SPEAKER_01 1:14:41

hard to find

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

something positive. It's not that it's hard to find something positive, what I'd want somebody to say. I'd probably just want them to, a bit like me, just to speak from their heart today. You know, that I was a caring and thoughtful and understanding person. And yeah, like all people, I think I just want people to see me as all right, because I am. Yeah, I've had his shows, but I'm all right. He was all

SPEAKER_01 1:15:06

right.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:06

Yeah, he was all right. He was a cock at times, but he was all right. But he was all

SPEAKER_01 1:15:10

right, yeah. No, John, thank you very much for your time. Thank you for coming on tonight. No worries, mate. Much appreciated. You've been wonderful. Thank you. And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People podcast, then please check out our other episodes and hit that subscribe button. You can also find clips, outtakes and extras from this series on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and YouTube at CGLHull. That's at C-G-L-H-U-L-L. We're on Apple Music, Spotify, Google and YouTube Music. So please like and subscribe to be notified about new episodes. You can also search for Believe in People podcast on your favourite listening device. And if you can leave us a review, that will really help us in getting our message out there and rising up the daily podcast charts.