Trauma, False Accusation, Alcohol Recovery and Rebuilding Life After Collapse

In this episode of Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma, we conclude our two-part conversation with Andy Woodward, who reflects on the long-term psychological effects of childhood trauma and how those experiences shaped his later struggles with alcohol use, anxiety and identity.

Andy shares how a false rape accusation in 2015 became a devastating turning point - stripping away the structures that once grounded him, including careers in both professional football and policing. Without those frameworks, unresolved trauma resurfaced, and alcohol became a way to cope with fear, panic and overwhelming emotional distress.

Through honest reflection, Andy discusses

• the spiral into binge drinking,
• the psychological impacts of trauma,
• the difficulty forming safe relationships,
• the misconceptions around addiction,
• and the challenges of seeking meaningful help within rigid or judgemental systems.

He also speaks candidly about the profound media attention following his 2016 disclosures, and the lack of aftercare that left him vulnerable and unsupported. A central theme of this conversation is the recognition that substance misuse often develops as a response to prolonged emotional pain - and that sustainable recovery begins with understanding that link.

Andy explores his ongoing relationship with alcohol, including rehab, 12-step work, relapse, trauma therapy, meditation and the importance of living in the present. He emphasises choice, flexibility and the need for individualised, trauma-informed support, rejecting the idea of a single recovery pathway.

This episode is a powerful and compassionate exploration of trauma, survival and change - and what it means to rebuild life with honesty, humility and hope.

In this episode:

• How childhood trauma resurfaced later in life
• The psychological fallout of a false rape accusation
• Alcohol use as coping, binge cycles and relapse psychology
• Anxiety, panic, fear and relationship difficulties
• Media exposure, vulnerability and lack of aftercare
• Rehab, 12-step work and multiple recovery pathways
• Mindset, meditation and living in the present
• The importance of individualised, trauma-infor

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🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

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Chapters

• 0:02 Welcome Back And Context
• 0:16 Football Discipline And Early Drinking Habits
• 2:23 Policing, Trauma, And Alcohol’s Creep
• 4:15 The 2015 Accusation And Arrest
• 8:55 Spiral Into Binge Drinking And Anxiety
• 11:36 Language, Stigma, And The Word Addiction
• 13:54 12 Steps, Rehab, And Multiple Pathways
• 18:50 Relapse Before The Relapse
• 22:45 Culture, Availability, And Social Pressure
• 26:10 Mindset, Therapy, And Boundaries
• 30:05 Living In The Now And Daily Tools
• 34:20 Rock Bottoms, Justice, And Aftercare Gaps
• 40:00 Media Exposure Without Support
• 44:20 Forgiveness, Acceptance, And Peace
• 46:10 Practical Advice For Starting Recovery
• 48:30 Quick-Fire Close And Listener CTA

Transcript

SPEAKER_06: 0:00

This is a renewed original recording. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award nominated and British Podcast Award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery, and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler, and I'm your host, or as Alex said, your facilitator. In the concluding part of this two-part conversation, Andy Woodwalker attends to examine the long-term effects of childhood trauma and how these experiences contributed to his later struggles with alcohol use. A false rape accusation in 2015 marks a significant turning point, removing the external structures such as careers in football and policing that had previously provided stability. Without those frameworks, alcohol became a means of coping with unresolved trauma from the past. Andy discusses the psychological impacts of trauma, including anxiety, panic, and difficulties forming secure relationships. He reflects on the media attention following his 2016 disclosures and the lack of aftercare that followed. Central to this episode is the recognition that relationships with substance misuse can develop as a response to prolonged emotional distress, and that recovery often begins with understanding that link. Andy's account also highlights the challenges of seeking help and the importance of individualised approaches to treatment. He goes on to describe his evolving relationship with alcohol, including his time in rehab and his openness to exploring multiple pathways towards recovery. Andy emphasises the value of living in the present, approaching change with energy and honesty, and respecting the varied ways people manage their relationship with substances. His story underscores the importance of choice, flexibility, and trauma-informed support in recovery journeys.

SPEAKER_04: 1:29

First of all, thank you for having me back for part two. Because part two is about, you know, the the relationships that occurred previous, but also the relationships that happened in the last nine years. And I'll revert to that later on because it's about re relationships, resilience, and recovery. This is a start of part two, which I'll go on about. And when you when you talk then about you know being a footballer and being in that group mentality and the discipline of it, I was disciplined.

SPEAKER_02: 2:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 2:03

You know, I used to go out. I didn't say, you know, I was just like the rest of everybody else, really, you know, go out a weekend, but I was disciplined because I needed to play. And there's some footballers that that did drink, you know, and it's been prevalently put out there, but myself I didn't. I just drank socially with the lads, etc. And then in the police career, I'd say because you're it's trauma-based, really, because you're in that role and you're there to protect people, but you see an awful lot. And I did meet a lot of officers that were potentially dependent on drink. I can't speak for them, but I'd say the I'd say around I've looked back on it, and around about again, it's the synergy of 2013-ish, where Gary Speed took his life. There was a lot of turmoil in my life, and I think it started to catch up with me again, and that progressed, but it wasn't where I was drinking so heavily. And the 2015 incident where I'd mentioned before, you know, I was arrested for something that even to this day I'm still traumatized by it, but that significance of somebody accusing me of something that one I didn't do, and two, within the role I was doing, it kind of it sent me on the biggest spiral ever because that trauma that came with that, and all the trauma from my childhood to be accused of something that I didn't do, for the record I proved that I'm more than proved it, and the institute called the police are supposed to protect people, and they're also to protect staff. Now that really started my huge downward spiral.

SPEAKER_06: 4:08

Talk to me a little bit about that incident because it's been a while since we last spoke, to be fair, and and not to know I sound bad saying this, but I don't fully remember us talking about an arrest and and what happened. Yeah. Can you just re refresh my memory about that?

SPEAKER_04: 4:20

Yeah, well we'll start it there really. 2013, like I said, just before, I'd started with you know Gary Speed's death, etc. I'd done an article with the Sunday Times magazine where I was approached, and the only reason I wanted to do that, well, I've always been about protecting others and me take the flat for it, yeah. They started knocking on my sister's door and started to pry into her life and my mum and dad's, and they asked me to sort it out, so I agreed to do an article in the Sunday Times anonymously, and it was to talk about Gary Spears' death, which I I did do, but the senior officers in the constabulary were made aware of because I was then told that an inspector had to come with me off duty, not on duty, to watch and observe everything that I said. At the time, I just thought it was that was protocol, yeah. But I'm off duty doing an article. I'm not talking about the police, I'm talking about my childhood. But that, you know, I look back on that and that was strange, that was odd, which I just went along with and I give the article and and and following that I got I got dragged into a senior officer meeting, and I was sat along in a table with I mean high senior officers asking me about, and literally I felt like I was being interviewed about why I was doing this magazine. Bear in mind in 2003 I'd seen Benell in prison because I had a claim against crew, and they'd said that they wouldn't put me on any sexual offences, which I was on every single one, which I mentioned saying that, yeah. Yeah, but in but here it was like again a reiteration of okay Andy, we will look after you. And then following that, the amount of files I was given for paedophilia cases of of pornographic images and videos, and sitting in the headquarters from eight in the morning till midday, literally sifting through paedophilia on on an industrial scale that any like-minded any person would say, surely that's not right when they already knew what I'd gone through as a child. And I'm not making excuses for what happened following that, but that in itself is enough to take somebody to a very dark place, which I just got on and did, and I was always a yes person, always been that through my life because of the abuse. And then following that, I'd I'd say I started to spiral, and then they asked, you see, everything within the police, it was like I didn't go for it, I was asked to, and they asked me if I'd do the a family ozing officer role, which I thought I can help families that you know, in murders and things like that, you have to be there to protect the family, but also you are an investigator, but you're there to support a family, and for me it was my niche. That's you know, I've always been like that, you know. And I I dealt with I think it was two or three within the year, this was 2014 and 15, and ironically, I bumped into one of the mums just recently, and she hugged me and said, Thank you for everything you did, Andy, and you know, breaking the story. But I did what everything from my heart, and then this one time on the in 2015, an inspector just grabbed me at the night time and said, I need you to do a job for me. I need you to do, I need you to work your magic. And I was like, Magic? What is it? And it was a woman that wouldn't was not engaging with the police, you know, her brother had committed, was a subject to a victim of a serious crime. And I I said, Yeah, typical me, yeah. I was drained and all that, and I don't want to go into too much detail right now, but I got embroiled in this family liaison job, and what is by law is that looking back on it all, I wish I'd have been stronger, but by law within that establishment, again, protection is all about protection, is that a family liaison officer should be in twos at all times to protect both officers, yeah, and you've got witnesses to everything that you do, and there's a book that you have to fill in. Now, I was on my own, and again, I'm not making excuses for what followed, but I was vulnerable, I was on my own, and this lady made advances, and I ended up crossing the line, yeah, and messages were sent, and there were meetings with us, etc. Now, with that, what came following that, and my marriage started to really struggle because I'd done wrong. Yeah, I I owned that I'd done wrong, I'd crossed the line, and I knew that I'd gone against what the policies were.

SPEAKER_06: 9:44

Yeah, I was vulnerable.

SPEAKER_04: 9:47

Exactly that exactly that. And you know, I met I I was at a point where me and my wife at the time, it was I was going under, and I could feel myself sinking, sinking, sinking, and I left the marital home, and this person then sent me a message. She'd found out that I'd left the area, and her message was of this, and I have that documented as I do all the files, as I'm not saying anything untoward here, I'm telling the truth, and what it was was watch what happens now. And on the Wednesday, I went into my workplace and I was arrested, and it was the most serious arrest that anybody can actually comprehend, and I was arrested on suspicion of rape broke my heart. How somebody could one accuse somebody of that and two really that I was in the police station with all my colleagues coming into work and be put in that scenario to this day.

SPEAKER_06: 11:22

That's a wrong because you nigga you can never come back to that job after that, can you?

SPEAKER_04: 11:26

Well, I knew you know won the allegation, yeah, and there's so many allegations that are out there. I mean, right now we're talking about you know the big one that's out there at the moment, you know, is he innocent? Is he innocent? You know, I've proved it, I proved it, and not only proved it, I'll tell you in a second, but but that you know, that that doubt, that doubt in somebody's mind, did he do it? Did he need it?

SPEAKER_06: 11:55

The fact that the people that you would have considered maybe you know friends, and we always say this about work colleagues, you spend more time with them than you do with your family, do you know? So those people that you are close to are now having this interpretation of you, and and even as you said, you know, to be found out innocent, the fact that they even they thought that about you, it's just really hard to rebuild a relationship after an allegation like that is made about full stop, yeah, you know, and I imagine not not to interject to you, but I imagine as someone who is a victim of rape, to then be accused as a perpetrator of it, falsely accused, that must be even more heartbreaking because you know what it's like to be a victim of that crime as well.

SPEAKER_04: 12:34

Exactly that, and but prior to all that, my ex-wife was starting to feel frightened because she knew about this individual and it was items being delivered to the door, including a picture frame saying Andrew loves the wife in Scrabble letters, and I was in fear, I was getting frightened, and she was getting frightened, but I was in fear to go to the establishment that is the police because back then this was 2015, people weren't speaking out about anything really then, and I was frightened to death, and I was in fear, but that then you know the horrible feeling of being in that situation put in a cell, knowing full well what the other person had actually done to someone that gave nothing but care and love and didn't do anything wrong other than leave the area and not want to participate within that cross line that I'd done. Yeah, and you know, I told the the police the full truth, nothing but the truth. I told them to take my phone and please look at it. I've crossed the line. Yeah, if I lose my job, I lose my job.

SPEAKER_06: 14:04

I'm I'm you know you brought you brought the conduct to the police officers, but you uh police uh uh establishment, but you haven't committed a crime.

SPEAKER_04: 14:12

Well no, yeah, and and it was that I mean the the job in itself for 13 years was an absolute minefield of a struggle for me, but I did it for humanity then, you know, I got awards and I did that, but I did that from my soul, from my heart. So so for that to happen, Matt, was just the most horrific thing that anybody could do, but not only that, it was kind of like and I I told them, I said, take it away, please. You know, this offence, I categorically would never inflict that on any human being in my life, and don't get me wrong, we've talked before in part one how some people can can can go down a different path and and then choose to abuse others, yeah, choose to be a narcissistic horrible person with no heart and turn cold, but for somebody to accuse me of that was like literally it, you know, it nearly was the death penalty to me, but it was horrific, and so following that, I expected it to turn round really quickly. I had you know, my colleague who who really helped me, I didn't have any support. They, you know, people might say, Well, you're arrested for that, why should you have support? But you know, I hadn't done anything wrong, as in what I'd done is I'd crossed the line, I'd done wrong in the job, and I know that I know what I'd done wrong, but in terms of that, it was horrific.

SPEAKER_06: 15:50

Yeah, and would you say that this then, after everything that you went through, that was the catalyst which turned you towards states? That's it. When did you realise that? Because I imagine maybe it started with a bit of drinking.

SPEAKER_04: 16:05

Yeah, it was tell me how it was. So the build up to that was I was drinking more alcohol, yeah, and I'd had time off work just prior to this happening, and I was drinking alcohol, and you know, following that I literally drank, started to drink heavily, and it was binge, it was wasn't like um I well there was a period, a short period, where I was like literally, it was the only method for me to block out what somebody had accused me of, and then what it also brought was all my trauma again from my childhood, and I seeked help from the PFA to see a therapist because I'd been building everything up because of the Gary Speed stuff, and I'd worked out loads of things out with the you know the rings of the football clubs and what was going on, and I was like looking into it all and stuff like that, as well as everything else that was going through, but it was like bang, and it was like a Pandora's box had lifted off. And as people will watch this and they'll see that when a trigger or an event happens, it it doesn't matter, it can be any time in life, it can be from a young adult, it can be from the teenagers, it can be whatever, but that substance for me was always in my life where it wasn't like as though it was the be-all and end all to block out, but that was always my go-to to drink alcohol to wash out the trauma, yeah, but not to that degree, and then when that started there, that was me. I was I was on, you know, as they say, garden leave, I was at the home, I was like, and I was just drinking, and then there was a gap because I had some therapy, and that therapy sidetracked me again on the right path, hence me doing the Victoria Derbyshire. I mean, but following the Victoria Derbyshire and the impact of the amount of interviews that I'd done and I started smoking, you know, that's the you know, that's another addiction, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06: 18:19

It's a good stress management, isn't it? A lot of people turn into it, don't they?

SPEAKER_04: 18:21

You know, and and that that trauma base that that really sort of kick-started me into drinking alcohol a lot, and it was binging and binging and binging.

SPEAKER_06: 18:33

Was it any drink in particular, or was it just any alcohol you could really you see with myself, it's never spirits, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 18:39

It was just, you know, any lager or cider or bottles of cider and you know, stuff like that. But when you're when you're in that destruction path of I I don't like saying the word addiction for some reason, but that that relationship with alcohol, drugs, gambling, sex, you name it, once you're in that, you're kind of in that hole. And what comes with that, what I've had identified now, and obviously you see I'm I'm good now, but back then when you when you've when you've gone down that slippery slope of your relationship with it is that important, it goes past that element of your family, your friends, ones dearest to you, and you hear them when they're saying you've got a problem here, you need to slow down or stop drinking, etc. etc. But when you're in that binging or relationship with it, and when you've suffered trauma as a child, yeah, no matter what that is, whether it's from sexual abuse, abuse, you know, family, anything like that, you you you end up with fear, and what runs alongside that is you're an empath, so you care, you've got a big heart, and then the next level with that is the anxiety, yeah, and the anxiety that kicks, and that's one of the reasons you want to block out the past because it's you're getting all these flashbacks, you want to get rid of any fear because in drink you become confident, more able, and you've you you can walk in somewhere and you can have a laugh and blah blah blah. But the anxiety level, it takes that edge off you, so you become calmer, you're real well, you do know it's damaging your body, but that feeling of being all those three, everything else goes out of the window, yeah. And then when you wake up, it's that dread of that feeling. It's not when you've done it for a period of time like myself, I've been there, yeah. It's not like a hangover. I used to have hangovers, I know what they're like, and you wake up in the morning and go, Oh gosh, but yeah, do I have a hair of the dog or do I have a bite to eat, or do we eat a McDonald's or a KFC? And by the night time, you're kind of like, Oh, I'm coming round a bit now. No, it's deep because you you wake up with that dread of that feeling of anxiety rippling right through you. So the instant reaction is how am I gonna stop that? Oh, drink.

SPEAKER_06: 21:29

See, it's interesting because everything you've described there for me is addiction, but you don't like to use the word addiction. Why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_04: 21:37

I think uh I think the stigma of the actual word is quite damning to people, and it's quite a negative word. I think in society, the way that we turn around and say, Oh, you're an addict.

SPEAKER_06: 21:51

Yeah, yeah, I get it.

SPEAKER_04: 21:53

Yeah, it just doesn't it's more of a horrible relationship with a substance, and you can't say that obviously, because you you the addiction is addiction, you know, the word, but I just um people will all understand this because when when you've got a bad relationship with a substance, and then that word, because the stigma around it is you're an addict. Whoa, no, don't like that. Yeah, it it internally it hurts, even though we have our own free will that we we've got ourselves into this mess, we still don't want to be in this mess. And when people go, Oh, you're an addict, or are you an addict, just the wording just there's the the denial about it, isn't there?

SPEAKER_06: 22:47

I mean, yeah, yeah. I think if if we we look at the 12-step programme, yeah, I think the first step is obviously to accept that powerlessness over addiction, isn't it? And you'd think for people in addiction that'd be a quite easy thing to do. They'd look at the life around them and think, okay, I'm definitely powerless over this, but even step one can be quite difficult for people. Did you follow a 12-step programme? How did it work for you?

SPEAKER_04: 23:14

Yeah, I've I've you know, in the in the the journey of Andy's relationship with alcohol, I've I've been to AA, I've read the book, I've done the 12 steps, and to be fair, the principles actually are principles of life. Yeah, it doesn't matter whether it's a substance or alcohol or drugs or anything like that. The 12 steps are really about life.

SPEAKER_06: 23:38

Yeah. See, a lot of people say that more people should follow a 12-step program with without an addiction because they'd live a much more fulfilling life.

SPEAKER_04: 23:46

Fulfilling life, yeah, absolutely that. So the actual concept that Bill brought up was really more about humanity, but what it it then became a lot of men, groups of men, and I I still think you know, I think women find it harder to be in that AA come 12 steps. So I did do the 12 steps, and you know, the fundamentals of that are are right, but you know, is it the answer? I don't think it's just the 12 steps are the answer. There's so many.

SPEAKER_06: 24:26

I suppose you to to define the answer, you need to again define the question because your relationship with alcohol now, from what I understand, you could have a drink now. Is that correct? Yeah. Is that a is it something you've tried to do, or have you just chose not to even? I mean, because one of the things I think the interesting thing about recovery is that a lot of people, from my experience of work in this field, and when you talk to people, there's this idea of right, it's been a year, two years, three years, whatever it may be. I'm no longer physically dependent on the substance now, so I can have just one drink. But of course, it's never just the one drink, the one drink tends to two, and then you might find that you know you're free four weeks down the line and you're right back to where you were. Yeah, those you know, a couple of years ago.

SPEAKER_04: 25:17

I've been on that, I've been on that road, you know. I've been in rehab. So in my journey, you know, I I knew I had a bad relationship with it, I knew it was really going worse. And is that my fault? Yeah, it's my free will, but also the fundamentals around that was the way I was being treated, how I'd been treated, all my trauma had caught up with me. So my only get out was to pick something up. You see, I never gambled, drugs, no, you know, any of those other elements, but alcohol I drank before, so I knew that it'd calm me down, take me off. And then I went down that road and people that that you know that fight that say about alcoholism or drugs, etc. Unless you've stepped over that parapet, social drinkers, you know, they're they're not far away from it because if they had it ended up with a traumatic event, loss of someone's life, or something huge, quite easily just then two becomes three, becomes four, one bottle becomes two bottles, and before they know it, without them even realizing it, they're in denial that they are actually are they an addict? Because where's the where's the where's the balance on here? Are they an addict?

SPEAKER_06: 26:47

So when was the last time you had a drink? Recently I've had a couple, but and it was able to just be a couple and that'd be that.

SPEAKER_04: 26:54

But what yeah, but what I also can identify, if I do, then what I do to myself is go, whoa, because I know that if I was to let that couple go into more and more and more, there's no doubt I'll be back to 2017.

SPEAKER_06: 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 27:13

And it's the hardest battle, and will I have this for the rest of my life? Probably because of you know, I always say it's the the percentages that people say about addictions and the link to trauma, it's all right them saying, Oh, it's this percent and that percent. Well, if you get a hundred people or a thousand people, if you don't pick the right thousand people, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 27:39

The percentages are always gonna be different. The figures are always gonna be stupid. I I hate data research and we spoke to a hundred people, it's like yeah, because you you know what I mean, you still have very small amount of people you're speaking to. But you I could speak to a hundred people and not one of them have experienced any form of addiction. No, and I could speak to a hundred other people and maybe all hundred of them have. So your percentages are always gonna be skewed in that one in three people. I suppose I guess if someone was listening to this and they identified as you know an addict and quite you know avid follower of the 12-step programme, they could listen to this and think, well, he was never an addict then, or he's not an addict because you can have a you've got a bit more control over your use of substances than than what some people will have. So I guess the question is, is there a difference between addiction? Which again, if you've had a physical dependency, that's it, and being an addict as well.

SPEAKER_04: 28:30

Is there a difference between the two? Bear in mind this is like you know, I'm talking 2017. We're talking like eight years that have passed now.

SPEAKER_06: 28:38

It didn't happen overnight, did it? You've you've worked to get to it.

SPEAKER_04: 28:42

I've worked alright, and I've had, you know, relapses that many, and I was powerless to it. I've been in rehab, you know, and rehabs are there, they're they're designed to get you off alcohol, they're there to protect you because coming off alcohol or drugs has side effects and they can be very dangerous. So it's all managed in that that way. Some are better than others. Are they are they that I mean they they have statistics of people, but I know that the the second one that I went in, there's quite a lot of them that relapsed. Yeah, as I did. And you have all the intentions, you're clean, you feel great, you've been fed, you've been watered, you can't drink, you've gone through the 12 steps, you've been taken to AA, CA, you name it. And the families have paid X amount of pounds because they're not cheap, they're very expensive to go in a private one. Yeah, and then I think the support network after it, I think that's where the chain gets broken because you're kind of chained up in there. When you have to go with the process, you have to, you have no option. I mean, you can leave, but you're there for that purpose. And then you go back into reality in the real world, and then your relationships, it could be a partner, and your partner drinks, it happened to me. You know, my ex had come out of rehab within three weeks, it was Barry Benell's trial. She turned around and said, Come on, D, have a drink.

SPEAKER_06: 30:28

Yeah. No.

SPEAKER_04: 30:31

Go on then. Yeah. That one. That was it then. I was on.

SPEAKER_06: 30:36

So I guess looking at your relationship with alcohol now, do you know bearing mind what it has done to you? It begs the question why you'd even risk picking it up just for that one or two. Why do you think you do still feel like you can have a drink on occasion then after it, alcohol has kind of put you through so much moral interest?

SPEAKER_04: 30:54

I think because with myself, you know, I probab it's probably in me. I like to test myself.

SPEAKER_06: 31:03

Yeah. Okay. Is it a test way of doing that? I suppose that's the one thing, isn't it? The risk versus reward sort of thing.

SPEAKER_04: 31:10

Yeah, is it is an element of that. But but for me, every personal journey is different to mine.

SPEAKER_06: 31:17

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 31:17

Do you know we're we're human beings and we have our own free will?

SPEAKER_06: 31:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 31:21

You know, somebody that's a friend of mine that's in a different mindset, different situation, different trauma, different past, different journey, different road.

SPEAKER_06: 31:32

Nobody is an individual.

SPEAKER_04: 31:33

Gosh, that person, the th the actual one, or even half a one, or a sip of one, that could just completely obliterate years. It could be two years, it could be ten years. I've known people 15 years, just that sip of it, that's it then. Because the brain goes into and it's not even the taste of the alcohol, it it's something within it, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 31:56

You know, whatever's in it. I think it's the circumstances that surround it. I think one of the things that I always found interesting is the um the relapse before the relapse, and it's something that people have said to me before, even previous guests on this series have said that you know, often when a relapse happens, it happens long before they ever pick up a drink, and it's down to mindset and where you are. And I think obviously you've said yourself, you know, you like to test yourself, and you you can have a couple of drinks, and you recognise when it can start to go too far and you know when to stop. That's great. As we said, everyone's individual, so not everyone can do that, but even that thought process of oh, I might just test myself. There's the there's the relapse before the relapse, or it could be you've got something stressful going on in your life, you maybe experiencing a bereavement, and that in some way could be the relapse before the relapse because you've already kind of decided to yourself this is how I'm gonna cope with this.

SPEAKER_04: 32:47

It is that because that's exactly what happened to me in the past. It'll be an event, it'll be a subconscious traumatic event, or something occurs, or a stressful situation, and I'm real stressed, and that that bubbles because the mind's then gone, yeah. And then it's like, and then environments where we are, we can go in a shop, it doesn't have to be a pub. No, you go past those aisles and it's all in front of you, it's on advertisements, it's there, it's boom boom boom, and it can just take you, yeah. I get it, you know, and and like you know, say I have a couple I can have a couple of drinks, I'm testing myself, but also there's events that occur that can also go.

SPEAKER_06: 33:32

I think in some ways, well, if you think of it like a bit of a traffic light system, ironically, red being the safe zone, that's where you're there. Amber is the the contemplation stage, which some people can be at, and for you, like you said, all it took was for someone to say go and have a drink, and if you're in that amber stage, that's someone basically giving you the green light to go happen and have a drink, exactly, you know, and then that's where it can can happen as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 33:54

And that and that's the other thing, it's like you know, the stigma around you know, not drinking, which is I think it's brilliant now that they've brought a lot better zero alcohol out, and you don't have to be stood there with a without with a with a J2 or something, yeah, yeah, technology. Which is good, yeah. But it all boils down to you know, with with this word addiction or relationship with alcohol or drugs or gambling, they all are the same in terms of once you're in it, it's near impossible to get out, and you don't you don't just don't know how you're gonna get out of it. Yeah, and those people that you know, and I said to you before about the hangovers, they're not hangovers, they're it literally your body is rejecting the poison that you've put in. And although you know that's happening, you want it to go away. Yeah, so you'll just drink.

SPEAKER_06: 34:52

Yeah, because you know it's gonna in a in a strange way is make you feel better. I remember first having you know the hair of the dog sort of thing when I was uh when I was a teenager, and I was like, what that can't be right, sort of thing, and obviously, I mean it stems from somewhere, doesn't it? Yeah, I guess going back to the the idea of uh the the 12-step uh recovery um groups and places that you found yourself in with AA, have you found that because of your views on your relationship with alcohol that you have been challenged within those settings or made to not feel welcome in those settings? Or have it always is it kind of do they treat people on an individual basis, really?

SPEAKER_04: 35:29

I think like anywhere, I think in certain it depends on where you are and which ones every group is different. Like I said to you about every human being is different, aren't they? We're all different, every human is different, every group is different, and some have ego egos or they have different approaches, you know. Also, the other thing as well is like some people, you know, can be like forceful with you. You are not drinking and being du but you've but you've got to understand that individual because some people are in all walks of life, you know, if you if you're shouting at someone that doesn't like being shouted at, then that's gonna have an adverse effect on that person. It's understanding, and it's it goes back to that relationship because relationship with alcohol, relationship with a partner, relationship with yourself, you've got to understand that individual because every individual needs are different.

SPEAKER_06: 36:23

Yeah. I think you know, I and I always I always share this, but it really does resonate with me what you're saying there. Of I always say it is we can't tell someone to stop drinking, and I always use the wet paint example. Anytime I see a sound that says wet paint, if it's not like glistening and obviously red, there is part of me that wants to touch it and see if it's still wet because it's it's telling me do not touch, it's and I think I have this personality when you tell me not to do something, yeah. I kind of want to double down and do it even more. You've got it, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 36:51

It is, it's so true because I used to get it all the time. I used to get it off my mum all the time. Stop drinking, and I'd be like, Oh, what?

SPEAKER_06: 37:01

Yeah, you know, you want to double. And I do know what I think I think looking at my teenage years, I had a friend whose family was really strict with him on everything. Now my family weren't strict, but they weren't, you know, completely passive either. But which one of us ended up in addiction? Was it the I mean, my mum knew that I'd go out on the weekend and drink, and she'd say, just be safe, be careful, stay with your friends. I'm a teenager, she knew what I was doing. And then I had a friend who their parents had come down on like a ton of bricks for drinking. Which one of us ended up having problems with substances? It's the one that was told, Don't do it, don't do it. This is wrong, this is naughty behaviour, burbler.

SPEAKER_04: 37:35

You know, and and that is so true about you know, when when you you're being told off and being shouted at, and especially that link with relationships, as in you know, relationships with your mum and dad when you're a child, you know, watching your mum and dad argue, drinking, yeah, all of those elements, abuse, everything, you know, and and when when that happens to certain individuals, especially we would go back to those empaths, the the ones that are in fear, you know, it's like, oh no, no, I've got no, don't shout at me. I I need to pick up. Yeah. I'm gonna drink. And they'll go as well, so they'll run away from the home. Their missus or partner or ever, there's a big domestic, and they get in the car or get on a bus or get on the bike, and they go, pub.

SPEAKER_06: 38:27

Yeah. Bum. I think as well with that, is most I always say this, but uh I think almost a hundred percent of people out there have tried alcohol at some point. Not everyone's tried cooking, not everyone's tried heroin, not everyone's tried cannabis. Alcohol is the thing that most people, again, I would I would say 99% of people have tried. So when people and and they understand, I mean, is you see it in media and in culture, you know, when people are stressed in the movie in a in a movie or a TV show, where do they go, they sit at the bar and have a drink. So it's constantly fed to us that this is how you cope with these feelings, you know. They actually feed you, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 39:02

They feed you, the the the the system feeds you, it's legal, it's the biggest killer in the world, yeah. Undoubtedly, it's fed to you, and people are actually encouraged to drink alcohol, it's on every show, you know, the food shows, you name it, etc. And I'm not saying you can't do that, but also it it's literally there in front of you everywhere you go.

SPEAKER_06: 39:33

What were some of the uh key steps then that you found to help you reduce your drinking or stop drinking? The practical emotional support. Obviously, you mentioned attending AA meetings, yeah, what else did you do?

SPEAKER_04: 39:45

I mean, I did the help I did the rehab, I've done AA, and I think it's like when I taught talk to you about you know the child abuse with me. I'm very fortunate enough to have all have had all that therapy, yeah. And a hundred percent of any addiction, alcohol, drugs, or whatever it is, gambling, etc., is this in the mind. Our bodies are our bodies, we uh we you know parts of what our mind tells us. Yeah, parts of our brain automatically do this, and our body works, but there's parts of our brain from our subconscious, like trauma, all the backstage, all the back of our life can pop up without us knowing it. And our brain is the one it's like they say about like the devil on this shoulder, and you know, there's good and the bad, and blah blah blah. Have a drink, have a drink, have a drink, go and do it, go and do it, go and do it. You'll feel better, you'll feel better. All of that is mindset, and it's your mind playing tricks with you, and it's telling you to do it, and then you're going, No, I can't, no, you can, yeah, you can. And it's that that so I was quite I've been very lucky with the therapy and stuff. So when it came to my way of recovery, it was all of those elements of you know, 12 steps, family support, you know, people around me, the right people around me, which I didn't have the right people around me for a long period, and they were just filling me with a drink, oh go out, go out, even though they knew that I had a problem with it, yeah, and that is bad.

SPEAKER_06: 41:31

So it's detaching yourself from the standing for alcohol problems, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04: 41:35

Yeah, so I mean it's it's it's a it's an I'd say it's all of that that I've been able to somehow get out of it. Am I prone to go back in it or will I? There's hope.

SPEAKER_06: 41:51

No, I don't want to go You're not you're not fully 100% in control, no.

SPEAKER_04: 41:57

I would never sit here and I've seen people, I've read books. I will never drink alcohol again. I am cured. Well, are we? Are we ever cured from anything in life? You know, we don't know the future, do we? It's like I I thought I I I read books about the power of now and the the you cannot predict a future. You say to me, like, are you gonna pick up who's to say, you know, something happens out there in the next two hours? I have an absolute meltdown, and I pick a drink up and just go on a bench.

SPEAKER_06: 42:34

I suppose that's the importance of having to work on it then every single day, isn't it? For for not necessarily for yourself, maybe I don't know, but for a lot of people. Because I often think, is it a bit too much, you know, when people do the morning meditation and the prayers, and yeah, like I'm like, is it is it that hard for people? But I suppose it's not that ever I mean, to be fair, for some people every day may be hard, but then there's this also this element of it's preparing for, as you've just said, maybe eventualities that could happen. Like right now, I'm living a very I'm in a very carefree, happy moment right now in my life. Yeah I could get a call three hours from now when my entire world could change. Do you know what I mean? You never you never know, do you? Absolutely preparing for those eventualities. So I do get why people do have those ideally routines.

SPEAKER_04: 43:19

And and all of those elements, like I say, it's you know, all the past, you know, the tools that I've got in the box in terms of you know all my therapy, it's getting a routine, and once you're out of that routine, like, and then you you go on that binge, and you can't it's it's impossible because you're that fearful of that feeling, so you just carry it on and carry it on until your body just literally won't have any more, yeah. And and it's also the element of the meditation, the spiritual do you meditate yourself? I do all the time.

SPEAKER_06: 43:53

Daily, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 43:54

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do, and I also listen to frequency music because life is about vibration, our energies, those around us, can feed off, you know, other people's energies. Yeah, I think about who I'm gonna be with. I mean with the right people here for me.

SPEAKER_06: 44:13

Energy is something I always find really fascinating because some people don't necessarily believe in it, and I get I mean I get it because it does sound for a lot of people, it does sound a little bit hippie and wishy-washy in energy, but I always found it interesting how I mean I one of my I guess one of the moments that sticks out for me in terms of energy was walking into a room with both my parents, and I knew that they'd both had an argument. I wasn't there for it, I'd been playing out as a kid, I'd come in. But I just the second I walked in the house, washed over me, and they both greeted me with a smile. Aye, Matt, are you alright? And I was like, something's not right here. And then obviously I went upstairs, and then I could hear them carrying on with the argument, and I was like, Oh, that's why I don't feel right they're arguing. Yeah, but it's interesting how you can come into certain spaces and just know energy in the room. Or if you know if like if this person has a problem with this person, you walk into a room, you can feel animosity between people. But I mean, I don't know if everybody's like that, or if it's just something that you know some people have, or no, I think I think everybody's got it.

SPEAKER_04: 45:14

It's whether you're in touch with that. Okay, yeah, and you know, scientific I don't want to because this is about the addiction, but it's linked to also energy and our spiritual awareness of who we are and what what we want. We I mean everybody just wants that balance, don't we? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Life should be balanced, and once you go off-piste, there's a problem. Yeah, well, no matter what it is, they're off-piste. But it's just you know, energy has been proven with the heart by somebody that I know that's been doing it 30 years in Canada. He's established that the heart is more than just a pumping muscle, it's an energy. I mean, why do they have electric shocks, yeah, electrical energy to start it back up again? Interesting, you know, there's all elements with that, and they talk about chakras and balance, and but it all fundamentally goes down to alignment and just being balanced, you know, our bodies are straight, aren't we? We're supposed to be. We have a few curves in the city. But I always found it at the sort of the yin and yang philosophy quite interesting, and and and all of that has has come into fruition in recent years, and and like I said, there's no one fix, and these the you can't just say, Oh, well, I stopped drinking, or I I'm not an addict because this is the answer, and this is what frustrates me globally. They say, We've got all the solutions, do this, read this book, do this, and you will be fixed. You know, hypnotherapy, that's gonna fix you. Well, it's not just one element because to get yourself in a balanced state, there's all different, and and it's not just a quick fix either. I I've worked hard repetitively, you know, every day. It's like it sometimes is groundhog day, and sometimes you're you're weak, and you're just like, Do I have to do this? Oh no, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06: 47:09

I imagine it's quite quite draining in some. Yeah, I I hate it when anything becomes a chart, very different. But I've recently started trying to learn Spanish. Yeah, got a little app on my phone, and some days I'm really up for it, and other days I'm not. But I've got a little streak on it. I'm on my 20-day streak, so I don't want to break my streak either. But there's days when I'm really up for doing this, and there's days where I'm just not, and I imagine with this process of meditation, I I imagine maybe some days you just can't be bothered to do it, but you kind of know you have to, but that's okay, isn't it? Yeah, I suppose is that okay? Do you think to be able to do it? It's okay, yeah. You know, listen, listen to your mind and your body.

SPEAKER_04: 47:47

It's like people that you know get fixated with the gym. That's good because it's good for your mental health, it's good for your body, it's good for this. But you you don't have to be obsessed with that. Well, that's okay. Don't be hard on yourself. Yeah, live in the now. Yeah, don't don't think future because that's where our brains and our minds do pick up a drink or do touch or do do this or do do that. Oh, what if, what if that? Um oh when I did that, that happened. Yeah, yeah. So we're going past tense and then we're going future sense, and then we don't live in the now.

SPEAKER_06: 48:21

Yeah, I can I suppose I can kind of jump between these feelings. Because I I often say I remember I used to be quite keen on my fitness and and my diet, and and it'd be like, Oh, I had a chocolate bar at 12 o'clock. Oh fuck it, I'll have a pizza for tea, then I've had knack at it now. Whereas I know from that my my PT that I used to have, I used to say to me, it's like, right, that's a blip. He said, You had the chocolate bar, he said, fair enough. He said, But if you still have your let's say your chicken and rice is an easy example, you still have your chicken and rice, you're still on track, do you know what I mean? Yeah, he said, like so. I guess, and I could just go back to my little app. If I break a streak, I suppose my my 20-day streak, I might think, oh, I'm not gonna do it anymore. I've broken my streak, but the reality is actually, well, no, mate, you don't matter, you can still carry on learning. Do you know what I mean? This is just a figment of uh your imagination, it's it's something just to draw you into keep doing it. So you've just got to get right back on it after, I suppose.

SPEAKER_04: 49:09

Even though you're talking about that, there's still a direct link there with relationship with substances because we if if if we break that cycle and we've gone on a streak, like you just said there, if if we link that to alcohol, so we've gone on a brilliant streak, and we've been to AA and we've got these bad tokens and all this, and we're doing brilliant, and then bang, something happens, and we go off piste. Then we go into destruction mode. I've broken that cycle, yeah, and we're into self-destruct, it's my fault, I've done it, which it is our own free will, yeah. But that's okay.

SPEAKER_06: 49:55

Over a period, we've just got to try and dust ourselves down again, try and get back on that horse, back on that bike, and go, okay, it was a rough road that but I guess that's what I often say between the differences between lapses and relapses that people don't understand. The lapses, yeah, you picked up, you had a drink, yeah, but Christ, it was a couple of hours, yeah, get back on it, you know, carry on your programme, let's try and do a bit better tomorrow. Whereas if you just go off the rails for a month or whatever, then you've that's you know if you're right back to square wars, but even if you do have a month, that's okay.

SPEAKER_04: 50:31

Because it's the mentality behind it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06: 50:32

Are you aware of it? Do you know do you want to change?

SPEAKER_04: 50:37

Do you want to change? The mind has gone into automatic, I'm on it. And once that break of that cycle, so you've got your middle ground of you know, alcoholism, drugs, and then you've got the high-end that have been doing it for 30 years or 20 years, constant and don't know anything different. They're all still empathic people with good hearts. There's not one and I hate that word when they say oh smackhead, this and then the sorry, they're human beings, they didn't you know, they were children. When they were children, uh you wouldn't call them a smackhead then or anything like that. They've had they've had events in their life from a trauma, from childhood, or whatever that is has caused them to go to take, pick up, inject, or whatever.

SPEAKER_06: 51:38

But even those that are like this is it, you have to see people beyond it. And I've I mean, I've there was a video I think I've talked about this before of um someone with a camera going down Skid Row, right? And all these people, homeless, addiction, so many people just under the influence, looking like some of them probably dead, and no one's even realised it yet. That's how bad the video was. And one of the top comments on it, amongst obviously, you know, what well to be fair, actually, I expected to see comments which would have been a barrel of hatred, yeah, of comments like smackhead and and those you know, stigmatic words that you'd experience or expect to experience in that comment section, but it wasn't. The comment section was very empathetic, and one of the top ones you know had the most likes, and it's like just think of it, these were all children once. What happened to them to get their list?

SPEAKER_04: 52:28

And that's when that's when they're really empathetics. It it it does, but you know, I just wish that society would see that and take the blinkers off. Yeah. That what what the government and what people and what what they say, well, hold on.

SPEAKER_06: 52:46

And it takes us back to yourself, do you know what I mean? Look looking at you and your story. You you was a you was an innocent child once. Absolutely, it's no different to anyone else. Exactly. You sit here now, you've had your problems with alcohol dependency. Yeah. But if people knew a fraction of what you'd gone through, the mind can't comprehend what you've gone through. Computers fulfill you can't, you can't comprehend what you have to do.

SPEAKER_04: 53:08

Something's got to break, and this is this is not you know, I'm just one person that is able to come on here and hopefully help. Because I I don't, you know, I just want to give people hope that I've been there. And again, with you know, and I said about panic attacks before and panic disorder and divorces and marriage and childhood and being raped and what happened, you know, there's other people out there that have suffered the same or more, or whatever. Everybody's life journey is is different, you know, but it it's still fundamentally the same. It's trauma, it's fear, it's all the all the bad from the past that has caused the causation of where humanity is now, and you know, my heart goes out to everyone that you know, because I have been there and and again with the alcohol side of things, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. It it's it's it's awful, it's awful, awful place to be. But when I was in that horrible place and where I was, I didn't see an out. My out was probably oh I'll just die. Not bother anyway.

SPEAKER_06: 54:25

Well that's it, and I think if it's not alcohol dependency, if it's not substance misuse, it probably is suicide because again the substance becomes the escapism to the mind.

SPEAKER_04: 54:34

And the amount of suicides that you're related to it. I I've gotta say, you know, when I have alcohol has always been involved. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 54:43

Always. Did you feel that when you you know when we talked about that the prevention of uh of uh football of being in the police officer? Obviously, there was the the false allegation of rape that was the catalyst for this. But I imagine at that time as well, you're also dealing with I mean, how old was you at this point? Can I ask? That was 2015, so 42. Okay, so you you you're dealing with still, you know, 30 years of of trauma at the same time. It isn't just this one this allegation that has tipped. You you now you know you you've you've taken the plug out and the water's floating through, everything's coming at once now, isn't it? What was that like to be trying to address so many issues? Yeah childhood trauma, sexual abuse, yeah, the the you know, everything I mean relationships, the relationships, the marriages another one had failed, you know.

SPEAKER_04: 55:34

That was my third one, and you know, people sometimes go through one divorce, you know, and that ruins people, of course, yeah. But that was my third one, and again, it reverts to relationships because this was based on a relationship that you know I'd crossed the line, I'd got wrong, you know, and I I am always own up to the you know, my marriages, you know, they they they dissolved because of issues, problems, but yeah, problems that you wasn't necessarily ready to confront and talk about, I guess. I and I had spoken about stuff, but I was you know, I on that journey of that path of life throughout my twenties and thirties, and you know, I'd had panic attacks and panic disorder, I'd learnt a lot about the brain, I'd started to sort of see what had happened to me as a child, I'd had loads of therapy sessions, and I'm lucky, I'm lucky because you know, the poor people you know in this building that haven't had that, you know, my heart goes out to them, but I had had that. So I'd mentioned in my first interview that I'd done a lot of research and a lot of finding myself, and I had along that path.

SPEAKER_06: 56:44

Was you was you trans uh you talk about the the free-filled the free-filled marriages? Had you been transparent with each of them about your childhood? Or did you so you so you'd been open with them? Yeah, I'd confined it with love, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 56:57

Of course, because I thought that was it, but unfortunately, you know, again, relationships have two balanced sides, don't they? Yeah, you know, a damaged one here, that's for sure, but also you know, they have accountability for their part, and it is a balance, isn't it?

SPEAKER_06: 57:14

Of course it is, yeah. It's a 50-50 thing. I think that's what a lot of people understand with things like marriages, you know. It often takes two people to make it fill, doesn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_04: 57:23

But that was my open about it, yeah. But that was always my history. I jumped from one to the next to the next to the next to the next, and I and I did do that again.

SPEAKER_06: 57:34

What was the reason for that? You know, obviously, because you're still relatively you know young now to gone through three marriages. Like, why was you jumping into the I mean, obviously, to have a partner, a girlfriend, to be jumping into that full commitment of marriage, exactly one after another. What do you think the reason for that was?

SPEAKER_04: 57:50

Uh and I say I say it was only 2021 that I found realised what that was, but what it a lot of it is is about trauma, fear, yeah, loneliness, being on your own.

SPEAKER_06: 58:02

I was about to say, is that kind of what it takes to is the idea of yes, some people have a really big fear of being alone. Yes, and almost like marriages, it's that lifelong commitment. Yes, I know you say you've done it for the irony saying you're doing it three times over, but marriage is that lifelong commitment, it's like, right, I've got someone now for the rest of my life, I'm never gonna be lonely. That's and I thought that is that what you were chasing, yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 58:22

It's in the subconscious mind, and there'll be many that watch this that will go back and go, how many relationships did I have? And what did I do? Why did I stay with that person? They were narcissistic, and I was in fear. Fear, you see, fear is I was mentioning it before, is one of the biggest, biggest human issue in life.

SPEAKER_06: 58:45

Yeah, fear. This is the first the first emotion we'll ever experience in our lives is fear. As babies, you come out of the womb, you don't know what's happening. This is it. Subconscious, it's you've just gone from this nice secure place to now being in the what the fuck's got and it's fear. The cry and the because you just don't even at that level, being seconds old, you're experiencing fear, it's that what's happening to the body, isn't it? Yeah, so it's yeah, I I completely understand that. What would you say the uh the I don't know, we we often explore the rock bottom moments then? What was the rock bottom of of because for someone with with so much trauma, there's almost like a like a lifelong rock bottom moment going on there. But what was the rock bottom moment in the point of alcohol dependency? And was it only alcohol, or did you touch other substances as well?

SPEAKER_04: 59:29

Yeah, I'll touch onto that, but but pretty much on the on the journey journey, I'd say it's a journey. Well it has been a journey, but it was blumming tough one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh but throughout that you know that period in 2015 and through that into 16, I you know I can categorically say that I have proven that I didn't commit rape, yeah. Not only proven it through you know myself and the evidence, the evidence is shown itself in. Statute in history that nobody could turn around and say that I haven't gone through every judicial process to get there. One, I was never charged with it, and rightly so, because I would have stood up till the end of my last breath. It wasn't gonna go down that because the evidence was all there to prove otherwise. I went through CPS, but I had to wait 18 months for a case that could have been dealt with within a month.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:35

Because all the evidence was there.

SPEAKER_02: 1:00:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:00:37

It was there. And secondly, it then the individual took it to an appeal, it went to an appeal with the CPS, a higher level CPS, that again said categorically not. Which, although I got justice in respect of that, and yes, I lost my job, which you know, I have no qualms with that because I crossed the line in the code in a relationship.

SPEAKER_06: 1:01:13

Then you could be, you know, trying to fight for your job back. But if you can admit that, yes, I broke the code of conduct, and yeah, whilst I didn't commit a crime, I have brought a code of you can still, like you said, there's no qualms about leaving. You know, yeah, except to your wrongdoing there, yeah, but not to the extent of what you was accused of.

SPEAKER_04: 1:01:28

Oh no, no, and there's so much more to it, and I will write about that, and you know, I will tell the truth about the the a lot more, but you know, I went through that process of that, and throughout that, what run alongside that was my reliant on alcohol to take that out. And you know, through that, through that, through that, I was, you know, when I when I'd got to 2016, when I was at November, I'd started to become in a good place there because what I did in the probably start of 2016, probably February, March, I reached out because I'd gone through from the June 2015 right the way through Christmas, and I mean hit it. Yeah, binging, binging, binging, six, seven months of heavy, and I'd started to go, I need help. Yeah, and I've always cried out for help, not cried, but I've always shouted out and said, I need something. So that's where I went and met Dr. Lee Martin, and he I did these sessions for months with him throughout the process of me, you know, waiting for what the verdict would be for my police role, and I knew what it was gonna be. Yeah, you know, I I what it out anyway, after the everything that had happened throughout the last 13 years, but then through that I kind of through the therapy I started to ease off and I'd sort of like not stopped drinking, but I was I it was under a scope where I wasn't heavily drinking, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:03:16

And then just kind of like keeping the dependency, keeping yourself at a level is what you say, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:03:22

Yeah, and then obviously, you know, I'd met Danny Taylor in because the therapist had said to write it down and how all that occurred, and then I met Danny Taylor and he wanted to do a story, a truth, about what had happened, and then I broke the story, yeah. So in 2016, mentally, in terms of my childhood, I'd spent loads of years getting through that. That was raw, yeah, that was raw, but the childhood stuff that Danny wanted to do, and I wanted to help humanity, and it just happened that I'd had the therapy, I met James Bentley at Berry, what a great soul he is, by the way, and he introduced me to Danny Taylor. And it's funny how paths of life and destiny takes its course, and I went down that path and I broke the story. But breaking that story was albeit, you know, it's become the biggest scandal in sporting's history. That scandal that I went on the front of the paper for, for not for myself, wasn't about Andy Woodward, it was that the narrative was that Danny Taylor wanted to do an article, and I said, brilliant, let's get it out there. Let's, you know, all of this that I've had to go through in life, and I know that so many more, and my life had been pretty much ruined up to 2015. You know, I'd lost my job, I'd, you know, I'd had four marriages, I'd gone through four. I thought it was four. Okay, wow, yeah. Sorry, it's four now. No, it's four now. There we go. I was gonna say you did say three, yeah. It is four now, by the way. But yeah, three at that time, yeah, but it was like it's destroyed my life. Of course, yeah. This has destroyed my life. So I was thinking, how many others has it destroyed? Because if it's destroyed my life, yeah, there's so many more that in humanity that have, and I'd seen all the people with addictions and all of that through my career. Talked about the child doesn't. I was going enough's enough. You know, I've what what can I lose? You know, I've lost, I've lost my job, I've lost wives, I've lost, I've lost everything. For what was that my fault at 10 when I went back over it? The child within. I was a child. I didn't ask my free will, the choices I made, my own free will, the wrongs that I've chosen and the things and the you know, accountability. I was accountable, I was accountable for my police role. Yeah, nobody put a gun to my head to go, oh, start texting this person and start meeting this person. That was my own free will. Yeah, it was trauma-based because of the tension and like can I you like me?

SPEAKER_06: 1:06:28

Yeah, like and to be wanting to be liked, wanting to be loved, but wanting to be needed as well.

SPEAKER_04: 1:06:33

Yeah, so you know, breaking that also broke me again because what I didn't expect is it to go the way the bomb it went off, and it was a huge bomb.

SPEAKER_06: 1:06:46

And and the the interesting thing, using I suppose bomb as the the metaphor there, it was almost like, and I think we kind of touched on this in part one, but you break this story, you're struggling with do you know substance misuse problems, and you know, it becomes the hot topic, everyone's wanting to talk about it, and then it just fades away, and you're still trying to battle substance misuse problem. It's almost like just the the abandonment of the media, really, no follow-up support. And I think I've had guests on who have done reality TV, and I think if you know talking about things like Love Island, etc., you know, people who have killed themselves after appearing on that show because the media use you, you know, your life is laid bare, your relationships are laid bare, your your part of your story is laid bare for everyone to sing, and then the show finishes and then that's it, it's done. And you know, taking that to your experiences, you break the story, it's in the press, it's in the newspapers, it's on on the tell, and then once the story's broke, that's it. Thanks, thanks for your time, Andy. Yeah, off you go.

SPEAKER_04: 1:08:01

You know, with that, it's it's so it's so poignant to see. But I was uh oh, I mean, the example of what shouldn't happen. Number one, within 24 hours, I was hauled down, not hauled, I had a choice, but come down to Victoria, Derbyshire, and would you do an interview about it? In my mind, I'd you know, I I'd made before I made the decision to do the paper, it was life or death, because I'd said, like, you know, if this goes wrong, I've got my family, I've got my children, I've got, you know, that my sister married him, she's got kids, and this could absolutely like you know, but on the other hand, it was like, no, I I've had enough, and also that being let down, I'd felt let down by the police. Why didn't you protect me? I felt let down by football, why haven't you protecting me? You know, and it was like, well, I'm on my own here, yeah. Um it's just me, myself, and I.

SPEAKER_06: 1:09:10

Yeah, very a very isolating process, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04: 1:09:13

So as you look at vulnerability, although you know, I didn't I went on that programme on my own on the sofa, and I watched it back just recently after I've done your podcast, yeah, yeah, and I reflected on it and I've watched it. And if anybody's to watch that, you'll see me saying that I've recovered now, I've got this, I'm alright with my childhood, which which I was, but beyond the surface of that, I'd just gone through an awful trauma. I'd had six, eight months of hardcore drinking, yeah, and I was like, and I saw the child within me. Yeah, I was like a child, vulnerable, yeah, talking about a subject as a would do as about my childhood, about being raped, about ex etc. And you know, there was a question that Victoria asked me, and I was like, and I did well because I'm a natural at this. I I'm a speaker, it's what it's a gift I've got, it's what I do, you know. But what was interesting is I watched and she she asked the subject of my sister marrying Barry Burnell, and I managed to sidetrack it, but I don't know how I did it because in my head was you've just blown a nuke bomb off in my head, and I'm live on TV.

SPEAKER_06: 1:10:42

Yeah, so you weren't expecting that question at all, nothing was agreed upon to talk about that.

SPEAKER_04: 1:10:51

And I don't know how I got out of that, but I did, you did, yeah. I did, I did well, and I I don't want to talk about that, yeah. But when I watched myself that that was a vulnerable child in an adult's body talking about a subject, and then a week later, great idea, the BBC, woohoo! Let's get the others on the sofa.

SPEAKER_06: 1:11:13

Yeah, I've seen that clip as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:15

And let's put Andy on the edge. That's like looking at a bunch of boys on there, I'm a child on the end, and I'm crying my eyes out. Beggars belief, and then they go on to win a BAFTA for it. The what do they won a BAFTA? They won a BAFTA.

SPEAKER_06: 1:11:37

What do you mean they won a BAFTA?

SPEAKER_04: 1:11:38

For that Victoria Derby show won a BAFTA for that second interview. You can win a BAFTA for an inter powerful talk to me about that then. Bloody powerful, wasn't it? Mind my French, but that was powerful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:11:56

How old was that like to see them when you when you saw she won a BAFTA for no?

SPEAKER_04: 1:12:00

She spoke to me on the night, and it's great, Andy. And I'm yeah in a bad place then, but but I kind of like a week on, and I'm I broke the biggest story, the biggest truth that hit the world in sport, and there's a legacy there. But a week later I'm on the edge of a sofa with four lads who go on to destroy me, by the way. But as we'll talk about that, but I'm sat there and I'm like, and I'm not sat here now feeling sorry for myself. What I'm actually saying is that those people that do what you said there, that's the question. So they go on to TV and they just get thank you, yeah, goodbye, yeah, and that's what it was. The two times there, and it's nothing against any of you know Victoria or those camera people there, but there was nothing in place there to after care somebody speaking on live TV.

SPEAKER_06: 1:13:10

It was everybody left and off you go. Do you think that's different now, or do you know if it's different now, or do you think it'd be the exact same if the same thing was to happen right now today?

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:21

It's it's uh it's a system, and I know a lot about the media now, made a film and done all that. It's a system that runs everything's like that.

SPEAKER_06: 1:13:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:31

And when you're doing interviews with people on the news or those kind of things, it it's a churning of people coming in, coming out. I've been in plenty of green rooms, I've been in plenty of them, and literally it is like you sit in a green room, you sat there, everybody sat with each other in awkward, and everybody's like, Oh hi, what are you doing? What are you doing? I'm doing this. Great, see you later.

SPEAKER_06: 1:13:56

And you don't see it, never to be seen again.

SPEAKER_04: 1:13:59

Never to be seen again, and it's literally a conveyor belt. But when you're talking about such serious issues, you're talking about boof there's got to be something in place.

SPEAKER_06: 1:14:11

And and I and I mentioned reality TV then and the reason why I asked, do you think it's changed is because with again Caroline Flack and her suicide and the suicides that have come from Love Island and and those who would participate in it. I just wonder if they've maybe made some changes within the industry to I guess suppose protect and care for people who are actually sharing these stories. I just can't imagine having someone come on and talk about childhood, childhood uh you know, sexual abuse in the way that you did, and and them singing off you go. And not to say that I I don't believe it happened, I do believe it happened, but I just like to think if it happened today with everything that's happened in the last 10 years, would it be a little bit different?

SPEAKER_04: 1:14:52

But yeah, again, who's to who's to I mean now I'm talking now, and I'm in a great place, you know. And I mean I'm not talking on it like I was 2016 ago that score. I'm in a great time and is in a great place, but actually behind the scenes, I'm like knocking drinks back like that. No, no, I'm I'm in a great place now, but you know it's a reflection of past in it. We can't change it. But what we can do is reflect on that past and talk about it like we are now.

SPEAKER_06: 1:15:18

Yeah, and maybe now, as you've said, you are recharged and you are a different person to what you were when that story broke eight, eight, nine years ago. Maybe it will get picked up again, and maybe you'll be in a much better place to be able to contribute to it as well.

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:31

Yeah, and I've done yeah, I am, and I've done a full circle. Forgiveness. Yeah, I'm at peace. I'm at peace with them, I'm at peace with the FA.

SPEAKER_06: 1:15:40

Would you would you say, just a quick one, would you say it's forgiveness or more acceptance? Both. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04: 1:15:46

Because the acceptance is the first part. Forgiveness comes up. People say that I'll never forgive them. It's not forgiving their action what they've done, because that's the reality, that's tangible. The forgiveness is around everything that runs around that, the emotion, the the the the damage, all of the things that happen around that. Yeah, you've got to forgive that. Of course, yeah. Because if you can't, you end up addiction still will hold you. Yeah, the poison, we will still put the self-medication. It's so hard. Yeah. Well, that's what's wonderful about what you're you're doing with this podcast.

SPEAKER_06: 1:16:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04: 1:16:35

No, truly, uh, you know, I this is probably the first one that I've done where I am at peace with myself.

SPEAKER_06: 1:16:45

I'm glad. And you can see it as well, actually. So body language and everything. Yeah. Yeah. What advice would you give, based on your own experiences, for someone who is struggling with problems related to alcohol or to substances in general, what advice would you give them to, I suppose, live maybe a more fulfilling life, or if not a sober and clean life?

SPEAKER_04: 1:17:09

Yeah, I think I think to start with, I think like anything from panic attacks that I had, panic disorder, all the elements throughout my life, is that we can only start in the now. Like this second, like me. And every minute is the now, or half an hour, or an hour, and that's okay. I don't like people that or humanity that say I told you, or look, you've relapsed. Oh look, you're picking up again, are you? It's it's it's a it's a journey, it's not just a quick fix and it's taking one day at a time. One I used to do it, you know, when I was uh deep in depression, deep in anxiety, deep in panic. That hour I used to go, oh I'm still alive. I'm still here. So using those tools that me doing that, I'm still alive because of a panic disorder. I thought I was gonna die every minute. To I've got an hour with the alcohol. I did it for an hour. Yeah, I've done it for two. I'm proud of myself and actually be proud of yourself, no matter what anybody else says, it's about oneself and keep that hope. Okay, I did it. And one hour, two hours, two days, three days, four days, a week, whatever. It's our own personal journey, and we should be proud of that. You know, when they give the the 12 steps, it's great to get an award, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01: 1:18:47

That you've done it a milestone like a streak.

SPEAKER_04: 1:18:50

Yeah, but what I'd say is just take each hour, day, week, month, and live in the now. And that I I refer to now because that's one one of my tools is to try utmost to live in the now with our brains. Because if we let our brains go back, it brings it to the now the trauma, pick up or whatever. I don't like that. And the future is the what if what if I go to the shop and I pick up and then the brain starts going. It's trying to just focus in on the now and be kind to ourselves because we're all empaths that have addictions and you know problems. You tend to find those that are not empaths that are narcissistic or greed and ego and stuff like that, you know, can be different. So I I I can't, you know, I'd love to this is my in the future. I'd love to coach, I'd love to, you know, go to places, I'd love to give inspiration, but also help others. Yeah. Because that's my that's my journey, that's my path. But the most important thing is what we are is we're harden ourselves. We destroy ourselves, we hurt ourselves, and it's to being kind to ourselves and living in the now and using all the different methods that that is put in front of us, whether that is meds, whether that is therapy, whether that is you know meditation, because everybody's different, and if they find something that seems to light bulb in the head and go, it's working this.

SPEAKER_06: 1:20:49

Yeah, stick with it. You're on the right path.

SPEAKER_04: 1:20:52

You're on the right path, and then you can add other things to that to keep that going.

SPEAKER_06: 1:20:57

Yeah. Andy, thank you so much for for joining me today. I'm gonna ask you a series of questions that I like to end all my podcasts on, and and more importantly, with something like this one where we've discussed such heavy topics, it's it's nice to to do something completely relevant to what we've done so far. And my first question for you, Andy, is what's your favourite word? Hope. Least favourite word fear. Tell me something that excites you. Love. Something that doesn't excite you. A sound or noise that you love.

SPEAKER_03: 1:21:51

What do I hate? Horror music.

SPEAKER_06: 1:21:58

What's your favourite swear word?

SPEAKER_05: 1:22:05

I get everyone says this. I know exactly what word you're talking about when I ask whether people say that as well. So you enter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: 1:22:11

And what profession would you uh other than your own would you like to attempt? Had you not done football, had you not been in the police, what profession would you have liked to have done?

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:29

Public speaker.

SPEAKER_06: 1:22:30

Nice. Andy, thank you so much for joining us on the Believe in People Podcast. You have been wonderful.

SPEAKER_03: 1:22:35

And I will be a public speaker one day.

SPEAKER_06: 1:22:37

I can absolutely see it to be fair. Thank you. How was that for you?

SPEAKER_04: 1:22:40

No, that was brilliant.

SPEAKER_06: 1:22:41

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