Racism, Culture, Trauma and Addiction Recovery as a British-Pakistani Muslim

In this episode of Believe in People: Addiction, Recovery & Stigma, we are privileged to sit down with Taz, whose life story spans racism, identity conflict, culture, trauma, addiction, and the long path to redemption.

Born in Britain to Pakistani parents, Taz grew up between cultures – navigating violence, racism, and confusion around faith, masculinity, and belonging. Forced into an arranged marriage, his life spiralled into addiction, offending, and prison before honesty, therapy, and self-reflection helped him rebuild with compassion and clarity.

This episode examines how culture and religion are often conflated, how expectations can fracture identity across generations, and how misunderstanding faith can deepen shame, anger, and emotional repression. Taz speaks with rare openness about guilt, forgiveness, fatherhood, and the truth that recovery begins when survival mode ends.

In this episode:

• Growing up British-Pakistani in 80s and 90s England
• Racism, violence, identity confusion, and early trauma
• The clash between cultural expectations and personal faith
• Arranged marriage, shame, anger and emotional repression
• Prison, relapse, and the realities of addiction
• How honesty, therapy and understanding shaped long-term recovery
• Rebuilding life with compassion and purpose

Search terms: addiction recovery podcast UK, lived experience stories, trauma and recovery, British-Pakistani lived experience, culture and identity, substance misuse.

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Browse the full archive at 👉 www.believeinpeoplepodcast.com

This podcast is a toolkit for recovery & resilience. Whether you’re in recovery or seeking to understand addiction, there’s something here for everyone.

If you want to change your direction, grow as a person, and live life to its full potential, Change Grow Live is here to help you. We’re here for you if you need help with challenges including drugs or alcohol, trouble with housing, domestic abuse, or your mental and physical wellbeing. Change Grow Live services are free and confidential. Click the link below to refer yourself to your local service.

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📩 Podcast Contact: robbie@believeinpeoplepodcast.com
🎵 Music: “Jonathan Tortoise” by Christopher Tait (Belle Ghoul / Electric Six)

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Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Taz’s Story Framed
• 0:41 Growing Up Between Cultures And Racism
• 7:40 Violence, Bullying, And Identity Conflict
• 16:20 First Drinks, Double Standards, And Escapism
• 23:52 Heroin’s Grip And Learning About Rattles
• 29:15 Cold Turkey Cycles And Despair
• 34:34 Arranged Marriage, Control, And Collapse
• 43:05 Father, Trauma, And A Hard Won Reconciliation
• 52:28 Overprotection, Sisters, And Unchecked Rage
• 59:44 Prison Time, Structure, And Strength
• 1:05:06 Naming The Trigger And Leaving The Marriage
• 1:10:20 Finding Recovery: Groups, NA, And Purpose

Transcript

SPEAKER_05: 0:00

This is a renewed original recording. Hello and welcome to Believe in People, a two-time Radio Academy Award nominated and British podcast award-winning series about all things addiction, recovery, and stigma. My name is Matthew Butler, and I am your host, and as I like to say, your facilitator. Today I'm with Taz, a British-born Pakistani Muslim whose life takes us deep into the questions of identity, culture, faith, addiction, and recovery. Taz grew up in the north of England during the 80s, a time when racism was open, violent, and shaping. Caught between two worlds, he was raised in a Pakistani Muslim home while trying to belong in a predominantly white brain. That conflict of identity would follow him into adulthood through anger, addiction and prison. In this episode, we talk about what it really means to grow up between cultures, the difference between religion and culture, and how those lines are so often blared, especially around topics like arranged marriage and expectation. Taz opens up about the harm of confusion, intergenerational trauma, the power of forgiveness, and the process of rebuilding through faith and recovery. We begin our conversation today by talking about belonging.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03

It was extremely difficult. A lot of racism back in the day. I mean, it was it was horrendous to be honest with you. And uh so yeah, uh it we it was it was confusing at the best of times, and obviously there were other issues going on with myself and my my family background and whatnot, but growing up when there was NF about and the punks and whatnot, and uh growing up in you know the late 70s and early 80s, extremely difficult. Extremely difficult.

SPEAKER_05: 1:37

What kind of environment did you grow up in? Like the in terms like the family school, the neighborhood, what what was that like?

SPEAKER_01: 1:44

So, yeah, the the the neighborhood was just a just a normal neighborhood, the family environment. I come from a single parent. My father, may God rest his soul, had divorced and he he was uh he was a single parent. He was a working man, we hardly ever saw him. And for the first uh ten odd years of my childhood, we had my grandmother was taking care of me. He went out with with someone, uh a lady, a lovely lady called Mary, Irish Lady, she brought us up for a little while, and so it was kind of uh to be honest with you, when I look back at it and I can I can visualize it, it was almost surreal, to be honest with you. I could at that particular moment in time I could I didn't know what to make of it. I knew what not to do and who to avoid and where not to go, kind of thing. But we had our own little air area, uh a very small Asian community, maybe a couple of streets, and yeah, and that was it, and we kind of kept to ourselves. And every now and again we were told to go in. A crowd has come along, and you know, they go around smashing windows. So as a child, as a child, uh yeah, it was frightening.

SPEAKER_05: 2:57

Did you know when that was happening as a child, why it was happening? Did you know what okay? Of course, yeah. What sort of age do you start to become aware of that and learn about that?

SPEAKER_01: 3:07

Yeah, uh to to be honest with you, it it was from the day that go, as far as I can remember, we knew to avoid and I and I d I do not like using the colours. We avoid white people, yeah. That's how it was. Avoid them, they're off their heads kind of thing, and they're dangerous. And so I grew up in that environment. Right across us was uh what do you call it, a fire brigade. And every year they did events, like a community event. And I walked in there one day and I where they have the big water tubs and whatnot. I was thrown in there and I almost drowned. And you know, it was that by other kids? No, it was by it was by the white white white lads and and and in the in a group because they thought it was funny kind of thing, and uh and I I never went near that place again. That's heartbreaking. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 3:57

Because you won't forget that, do you? That never that that that'll that will that'll always stick with you. Yeah, of course, yeah. So it sounds like you obviously you're growing up there in almost two different worlds. It's okay saying like avoid the white people, but you you're growing up in a predominantly at the time, especially a white country. How did that how did that work for you in terms of like do you know being seen and being understood in both of these worlds?

SPEAKER_01: 4:23

To be honest with you, it took a a long while. It was only until I got to high school where I kind of started looking around and thinking, this is not right. You know what I mean? And I'm gonna make a stance. I almost rebelled against it and you know, I kind of stood up for myself. Violence kind of took over. Yeah, that's how it was. It was it was a case of us against them. Yeah. And for for years I I had this concept of, you know, that it is, you know, they're the enemy, kind of thing. And and and looking back at it now, kind of thing, it would I have would I have uh done it differently or had my thought process be different? I don't think so. Because I I wasn't unaware, I wasn't developed as a person, I was still finding my way. I was talking about this earlier, you know, at a very, very early age, you know, we were it was a very confusing time for us, you know, and and it it was like almost you know, like who are we? What what what what do we stand for? We've got the our our our fathers and forefathers came into this country in the 50s and 60s and they drummed this ethos, you know, that we have to uh you know kind of work and stick to our religion, but it wasn't as simple as that. We were out on the streets, yeah, you know what I mean, and we have when we were looking around, they were set in a certain way, but we are no my culture is not Pakistani, my culture is English, yeah. That's it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05: 5:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You because you are it's I guess this is what's really interesting because I always say this, you know, in terms of like, I mean, I I've I've talked about like in terms of myself, am I a product of my parents or am I a product of my environment and my friends? And I always say I feel like I'm more a product of my friends and that environment than I was the environment that I necessarily grew up in. And I suppose for you, obviously, with this home life being, you know, Pakistani culture, but your peers and the people you're growing up around and the cultures you're sort of mingling in are gonna be British, so that must be like really confusing, I think, as a as a teenager when when your peers can do things that maybe you're not allowed to do that your parents may frown upon, and you do things that your friends may think, you know, why is why why is he doing that sort of thing? You know, it must be it must be really confusing.

SPEAKER_01: 6:49

Extremely confusing. But the thing is, I I kind of brought the mould, whereas the traditional Pakistani lad will stick to the his own kind. My best friend was called Lee Langford and I I we had an 18th do, and I were really close with the family. Even growing up, I didn't I was kind of kind of I don't know whether I w whether it's the right thing to say. I was kind of attracted to the other side kind of thing. So I I I never kind of, you know, like or you know, I I quickly got over it and my mind was open and my heart was open from the day get-go. So right across there was a young lad, I forget his name now, and his mum, she brought me, you know, a train set, and we used to play together, and uh David or I can't remember. So I kind of moved away from the traditional Asians and whatnot, and uh so you know I because I I couldn't see any different. I couldn't see and I got warmth.

SPEAKER_05: 7:47

Yeah, I got warmth from that. Can you can you remember like the first turn, you know, obviously growing up with like you know, stay away from the white people and and can you remember your sort of first interactions or your first positive interactions with with say a white person that kind of really changed your outlook and made you question kind of what it is that your parents and your family was telling you?

SPEAKER_01: 8:07

Of course, yeah, teachers. Yeah, it was the teachers, you know, and again I must admit that some of the teachers in how I'm talking about primary school here, but moving forward, it I don't know to be honest with you. It was I it I knew what we were told was kind of you know uh stay away, but uh I it didn't sink in.

SPEAKER_05: 8:28

If that makes any sense, yeah, because I think it sometimes you know if someone is dangerous or not. You you have that instinct, yes, of course you do. It's quite easy. You know, you say about you know some of the teachers and and even some of the friends that you made, you can tell if someone has malicious intent or not. Not always, but I think for for the most part, you know. Yeah, it's a good feeling. It is, you got that good feeling, and I imagine that starts to make you make you question things. And I think looking at as you got older, in terms of like finding your identity, you mentioned the teachers, you mentioned a couple of friends, but who were the people or influences that shaped you during those teenage years?

SPEAKER_01: 9:04

I think to be honest with you, I was a bit of a because so we we we have to go back to my childhood and how I was brought up, kind of thing, and being confused, uh, abandonment issues, the mother not being there, looking for an answer, kind of thing. There's gotta be something out there that's better than what's going on right now in my life, kind of thing. And I just kind of plodded along, to be honest with you. Uh and it was almost wow, you know what? Think it was almost I was kind of directed uh you know uh on a spiritual level. I did not understand that at the time. I was guided towards people, but not but not colour or creed. I was guided and moulded and put in positions, and for me at a really, really early age, I I got over it. But at the same time, I was still connected to the Asian community, and it was us against them, so I was battling that aspect as well with my teenage age, I was in a gang kind of thing, and you know, and uh and then we we we it was it was mixed, it was a mixed gang kind of thing, so you know it was but I didn't really pay much attention to it. I was at high school I was bullied a lot, I was called B A Bracchus because I was the only Asian guy Asian guy there, kind of thing, and I kind of took it first year, second year, third year, and then something happened as an apt. Yeah, I thought, you know what? No, pollux to this, excuse my language, kind of thing. Yeah, and and I I started fighting back and I fought, then I fought uh because of what was going on, and my I and God rest his soul for for whatever reasons, I was brought up very, very harshly. And he he was battling through his own struggles, and he will he had one foot in this country and he had one foot in back home where he came from, so he was supporting you know two massive families, and so it was extremely difficult for him. I do understand he could not regulate his emotions. The only way he could regulate his emotion was through anger, and I was subjected to that anger, and because I did not know how to regulate my emotions, I didn't know how didn't know how to cry. He thought he took that as a uh as being rebellious or arrogant, if you want to use that word, and I was subjected to that physical violence on a horrendous level. And how long did that go on for? This went on to my uh until I was the teenage years, up until the end of teenage years. It's continued. Uh and you know, I was in conflict with myself, I I rebelled against him, I I almost at one point I I I hated him. I absolutely hated him. But my culture and my religion is telling me, no, this is wrong. No matter what your father says, your parents say, you keep your head down, you take it on the chin. So this was that internal battle battle that was going on within me, kind of thing. So and that kind of drove me into the madness kind of thing, you know what I mean? It was almost kind of wow. It I mean, looking back at it now, it was kind of almost uh, you know, like a destructive, you know, it I was on a path of destruction. It was almost like, you know, okay, you know what, is that how it is? Fuck everyone. Yeah, you know, I don't give a shit.

SPEAKER_03: 12:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 12:37

And I turned into this, and it grew. This this hatred and this this resentment and this nastiness inside me just grew and grew. And at one point I I didn't I wasn't bothered if I lived or not. And I I was known. I was known as this crazy person. I was known as I'll keep away from him. I it for me, I was already dead. I just didn't give a shit. I genuinely did not care. I didn't care whether I lived or die. If you crossed my path and you looked at me in a funny way, you was getting put down one way or the other. And and and you know what, I it's just I don't know, I don't know how I got here to be honest with you. I don't know how I'm sat here talking to you.

SPEAKER_05: 13:27

No, because there's there's a lot of there's a lot of things to unpick there, and I think I mean I'm almost metaphorically picturing like an elastic band, elastic band there's so much pulled to them, but you pulled them so far, they are gonna snap. I think based on on what you were subjected to by your dad as a child, I think looking at you as elastic man, of course, yeah, of course you're gonna snap. And then because you have this culture of uh respect your elders, respect your father, it's like this anger now, where where do you channel it to? Well, it's gonna get it's gonna be misplaced, it's not gonna be at the person who is making you angry, yeah, it's gonna come out at school to your peers, yeah, uh it's gonna come out to society, yeah, and you're gonna almost internalise it as well to the point of self-destruction, which sounds like that's what was happening. So you mentioned then about being known as someone to know with alcohol problems. When did when was you first introduced to alcohol? Because as far like I I've I have a Muslim family myself, and and you know, for as long as I've known, alcohol is what they're to haram. Haram, yeah. So it's alcohol and drugs, yeah. Do you know what I mean? So for for for you obviously to go and use substances like alcohol again when culturally it's a massive no. How did that happen? When was you first introduced to it and what attracted you to it?

SPEAKER_01: 14:46

So the first time I ever used alcohol was uh when I was 17. 17, I can't but particularly remember a moment uh of uh drinking and and somebody offered me a pint of lager, which I found disgusting to me. It was horrible. And then someone offered me uh spirits, and that kind of did the job for me to be honest with you. Uh my 18th birthday, I was bladded, you know what I mean. Uh and Teresa, a lovely lady, her son Lee Langford, they actually booked a uh a pub out, a room in the pub, and you know, I was quite close to them, you know, you you know what I mean, and and so yeah, I I kind of morphed into uh this Western young lad, still with massive uh uh identity issues and whatnot. Uh and uh yeah, I I I kind of broke away from that uh cultural side, but I still had to go home.

SPEAKER_05: 15:44

That's it as well, and I think you know, alcohol especially, you know, if in your own culture it is, you know, haram, then you are going to be more attra as you said, be more attracted to this opposite culture based on not just what it's offering but how it's making you feel. And everyone that takes alcohol, especially at the beginning, it makes them feel good.

SPEAKER_01: 16:04

I must stress one thing though. I mean, my elders, they were in the freaking pub. Oh, was they? They were in the pub. Yeah, they were in the pub. Nice, they they were in the pub, so we were told one thing, yeah, they were doing another.

SPEAKER_05: 16:18

Yeah, do as I say, not as I do, sort of thing. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 16:21

And so I thought, what's going on here? So I thought, you know what I mean? So again, it was extremely confusing.

SPEAKER_05: 16:27

Yeah, it's just gonna add to that more identity crisis, isn't it? What can I do? What am I not allowed to do?

SPEAKER_01: 16:33

Yeah, so I I don't know, at some point I just kind of switched off. I got kind of switched off from you know, but it inherently deep down and knew what was right and what was wrong. I had that sense of what's the word I'm looking for now, consciousness, you know what I mean? You know, I can't do this. But at some point, at some point I snapped, I switched, you know, and I became this character. And as people would talk about me, I would feed off that and I it it morphed into something, you know, like almost a monster, the part that I had to play, kind of thing, and this went on for quite a long time actually.

SPEAKER_05: 17:19

Well, I I think I mean from from what I'm getting from your story so far, you know, you're this little kid who was thrown in the water, yeah, he was you know bullied, and there must be something internal that that that whatever age you're at is growing up to think I am never gonna be that kid who is gonna get thrown in that water again. Yeah, yeah, do you know what I mean? You you you're putting yourself in that position now to it's almost like you're protecting you in a child almost by adding this layer to it of of this you know really you know tough guy personality.

SPEAKER_01: 17:49

Yes, absolutely bang on, hit the nail on the head, and I've been doing it for decades. It's only uh recently uh I I I was uh involved in uh in a group therapy called Deep, which is based in Blackburn, and they unraveled me and they got to that inner child, yeah. You know what I mean, and it was extremely emotional. What can you imagine? Extremely emotional. I I at one point a good friend of mine now, James is called he says, Can you see yourself as that child? And what would you like to say to him? I hate it when people ask things like that that's it. You know what? And I just brought down, yeah. I broke down. I'm I'm getting emotional, yeah. You know what I mean? Just thinking about it kind of thing, but that was the key. I needed that, yeah. I needed to see that, I visualised it, I visualised myself at that age, being bullied, being coming home and being battered. I mean, I do not want to get into detail, I mean black and blue, you know what I mean, and uh and and and he said and he said to me, What would you what would you say to that child now? You know what? I I'd hug that child and say, you know what, it's gonna be okay. I still feel it. And it's power, and that's never gonna go away from me. Nah, I don't think it's a big thing. Never it won't, it's gonna it's gonna stay that's gonna stay. But that the the thing is with that, that's my power.

SPEAKER_05: 19:19

Yeah, I get that.

SPEAKER_01: 19:20

That's my power.

SPEAKER_05: 19:21

Do it doing it for doing it for the doing it for your child.

SPEAKER_01: 19:24

And no one's gonna take that away from me. No one. This is why I do what I do, this is why I go above and beyond now. This is why I'll never judge anyone. This is why this is why I will listen to anyone and in anything, and not be judgmental and not be and not have that thing, you know what I mean, and you know, because I went through it.

SPEAKER_05: 19:47

I I think as well, when when we look at these things, you know, I mean, you the this this uncovering of this kind of sounds like you know, this emotional unraveling sounds like a almost like a recent thing, and I think we behave in our teens. It is I mean we we behave in our teenage years, we behave in our 20s, and and even bit beyond there, yeah. Kind of just be not necessarily knowing why we're behaving the way we are behaving, but there is that deep-rooted reason for it, much like much like yourself. But sometimes like I mean, I've been listening to you for what, maybe 20 minutes, half an hour now. I'm piecing the dots together already. Yeah, but it's probably taken you 40 or plus years, do you know, to to do that? Do you know what I mean? So we just we it's real easy to kind of see it in others, but not necessarily see it in ourselves. But no, I mean you spoke about you spoke about gang culture and you know joining gangs. Tell me a little bit about that. What was that like in the era that you were growing up in?

SPEAKER_01: 20:41

So in the 80s, it was glue sniffing. Oh, okay, yeah. Yeah, that that was a thing, and what a frickin' buzz. You know what I mean? Hallucinations a lot, you know what I mean? And the gas and and and the glue sniffing, and I I went through it all. So the gangs was you know, it's us against them. You protect the area no matter what happens.

SPEAKER_05: 21:00

We were living so was it an Asian gang that you was part of?

SPEAKER_01: 21:02

Yeah, but the thing is the whites were in it as well. Yeah, a couple of whites were in there.

SPEAKER_05: 21:06

Because then it becomes about the neighbourhood and the area, not necessarily just about the culture.

SPEAKER_01: 21:09

Yeah, so our area was the ghetto. I mean, you know, you you you you look at ghettos and watch TV and whatnot, like in America or even here, we it was the original ghetto. You know what I mean? No one came in, we weren't allowed to go to certain areas. It's only up until recently, the last 10-15 years that I've actually gone. Blackburn was very, very segregated. It was you know, you just did not go there, you only went up there to get your head kicked in. Yeah, yeah. If he was looking for a fight, that's where that's where you went there. That's where you went, and and a lot of the times, yeah, we'd come to the borders. They'd have you know 10-15 people on that side, 10-15 people on this side, and all we did ever was if we ever caught one of them, he's getting leathered. And vice versa. And a lot of the times that's all that happened. It was never a case of full gang fights kind of thing. If we caught one of them, he was getting battered, and vice versa. And I have been battered a few times to be honest, because I've been on the wrong side of the fence. So, yeah, yeah. So, I do you know what, honestly, it was exciting at the same time. But so it's the adrenaline rush, isn't it?

SPEAKER_05: 22:14

Because you know you know you're pushing the boundaries, don't you? Do you know what I mean? I I I get that completely. Yeah, obviously, you talk about the glue sniffing, talk about the introduction to alcohol. Do you know? I think there's there's the obvious for me that we're trying to escape things emotionally there that you're experiencing as a child. But what was it like to to kind of take control of how you felt? And I say that loosely in terms of taking control by using substances. There was no control. No, no, did you feel like it was did you feel like you was taking control or did you know that what you was kind of putting yourself in that position?

SPEAKER_01: 22:48

All it did was put me in a dream state for a short little while. Yeah. Reality kicked in. The escapism. The escapism, and I had to go back home. But as time went on, that reality, that that escape escapism turned into reality. It kind of you know, like it was almost like have you seen Matrix? Uh yeah, with the the dream state of what's real and not. It was almost like that. That became reality for me, and everything else was like, oh, what's this? This is real. Yeah, you know what I mean? That is not real, although that was life and that was reality kind of thing. And yeah, I I kind of you know, I I I accepted it and I kind of tried to figure a way out, kind of how to navigate myself being in this state kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05: 23:43

It was just yeah, it was just it's madness. When did it start to spiral into an addiction then? So for people to refer to you as an alky. You're obviously not someone who just enjoys a drink on a Friday night. People have obviously seen you drinking a lot for them to refer to you as the you know, yeah, as an alky.

SPEAKER_01: 24:01

Yeah, I think my the addiction started with it led up to pills from pills to cannabis from cannabis, it was heroin. Oh, okay, yeah. It was heroin. Yeah. When heroin got gripped me, and it was actually quite late later on in my life. I know a lot of stories and and and and uh you know and what what what I do now kind of thing. Uh uh a lot of people started heroin at a very early age. For me, it was the other way around. How old were you? I think I was in the late 20s, okay. Yeah, 27, 28, and uh I was introduced to it. And I again whatever you do, take all the drugs, drugs under the sun, do not go into any heroin. Crack wasn't even on the scene, or I didn't know anything about it. But somebody introduced heroin to me. And I remember the first time I put it in a spliff, and I got this sense of warmth and the whole world just shut off, and I was the only person on the planet, and that felt good. That felt wow, what is this? And that's the one of my first memories of heroin. It was like, whoa, this is something else, and and then from making it into a spliff, went into on a foil, and that's when my addiction started.

SPEAKER_05: 25:32

And I didn't know what a rattle was. Yeah, I didn't know I always found that the interesting part when people think, Oh, I'm not very well, and it's like, no, you're rattling your tits off, you know. If you take more heroin, you'll feel better, yeah, and that's that's it. And I I for the record like I always say when people go, Oh, I don't understand it. Well, like when people describe taking heroin for the first time and how that feels, I often think, Well, of course that becomes an addiction. There's no way you take that once and have that feeling and think, right. No way, as great as that was, I'm never doing that again. No, I completely understand how it quickly spirals out. But because and and often it can be like you said, not knowing what a rattle is. There is that lack of education of where it can lead to. There's the lack of education on the physical dependency that that is going to have on you. And in if anyway, if you kind of do like a bit of a cost-benefit analysis in your own head, it almost seems worth it in some way, just to feel the way you've just described 100%.

SPEAKER_01: 26:27

From from my childhood to where I was when I first took heroin, I take heroin all day long because the world didn't matter anymore. Yeah, this was a beautiful place I wanted to be in. Not understanding and realizing the addiction that was that had to come with it and the pain that had to come with it. And yeah, it was so not knowing about a rattle then. So yeah, what was that like then when you had the first rattle?

SPEAKER_05: 26:53

What was you thinking?

SPEAKER_01: 26:54

So I you know, so so the fit so and then I started falling ill. And uh I thought, what is wrong with me? I couldn't sleep, my throat was dry, and you know what I mean. I thought it's a common cold, I'll get over it. I've got a cold today, by the way. And and then and then I told someone, he says, You know what's happening, don't you? What? He says, You're rattling. Oh my god. Yeah, that was it. When they said you're rattling, and the only thing that's gonna make you feel better is another few lines, that was it. That kind of sealed my fate. It sealed it.

SPEAKER_05: 27:30

Yeah, I I always say this guy. I mean, there's some something that was uh the way it was described to me before, they said to him, Matt, have you ever had the flu? I went, Yeah, I had it, you know, years ago. Said, you know, the the vomiting, the diarrhea, the stomach cramps, the sweat. And he said, Imagine if someone came to him and said, Just take this now and you're gonna feel better. Would you have done it? And I went, Yeah, thinking about how bad it was, of course, or whatever. Yeah, and that's kind of what comes into it because yeah, obviously, we we talk about an opiate routel, it's not it's it's horrendous. Horrendous, but it's not gonna kill you. Do you know what I mean? It's it's not it's not gonna it's not gonna shut your system down in the way people think it will. Yeah, but it's that horrendous that you just want to stop feeling that way, so of course, yeah, you have more and you have more, and you and it just gives this continuous thing, and it becomes it's not even about that almost not about that high anymore that you've described of that feeling of isolation and that euphoric feeling. It's just want to stop feeling like shit.

SPEAKER_01: 28:24

But here's the thing with that though, yeah, uh as soon as I come to the realization that I'm bratting, I also come to the realization I'm screwed. Yeah, okay. So then the internal battle started as soon as I became an addict of how am I gonna stop? So then what I'd would do deliberately is call turkey. Yeah, yeah. I deliberately put myself, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna call turkey. Then I found out about it, you know, you sweat it out and all the rest of it, and you know, you go through the process. So I started that. I began year after year torturing myself. You know, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do it. I remember at the time my daughter was, I'm gonna do it for my daughter. I'm gonna do it for this reason, I'm gonna do it for that reason. And no matter how many times I tried to call turkey, sometimes with the methadones, sometimes with the sleepers, sometimes with the with the diazipal, and with with with the you know, with the with the you know, Tamazi palm, each time I'd do it, I'd last a day, two. And then I just crumble again. Yeah. It was and I just tortured myself. And then when my father found out, and by the by this t by this time, I was taken to Pakistan. This was just just before I was taken to Pakistan, and uh we talked me and Robbie talked about this about the arranged marriage.

SPEAKER_05: 29:48

Yeah, talk to talk to him about this arranged marriage then, because obviously from what I understand, that was a big catalyst in terms of in terms of where this addiction went. Was this a case of like your dad was just so fed up at the way you were? Behaving the way he was acting, it's like, right, I'm gonna sort this out, you're gonna get married. Did he think it was gonna be like this fix that would just sort all your problems?

SPEAKER_01: 30:06

But the thing was I at the time I was on heroin. Yeah, okay, yeah. I was on, I was on the you know, the the lesser drugs, uh vitamin and pills and weed and whatnot, and kind of thing. So he in his in his in his wisdom thought uh you know, I know what I'll do. I'll take him over, get him married, get him settled down. So, you know, I have to talk about this, and and you know, some of my family members might not agree with me. And I need to talk about this because there's no blame game here. And I just want to emphasize uh my father is my hero. You know what I mean? He he is the greatest man that I've ever known. See, that's bizarre to me. Yeah, that is bizarre to me that you can say that after everything he's done to you or not. No, but here's the thing though. He he taught me something. He taught me how to live life on life terms, he taught me to be upright, he taught me to be strong-minded, he taught me because I saw him, I idolized him. I I idolized him. Yeah, and and you know, when he talked, he fascinated me. I wouldn't understand what freaking hell he's talking about, but I was mesmerized. The words that were coming out, everything kind of made sense, but it it not to my head, but it looked and sounded good. Yeah, if does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05: 31:29

It it does, it doesn't it doesn't. I I think it obviously I I can I I completely get it because he's he's your dad, and I think you you spoke quite highly of him at the beginning and said, look, he did the best that he could. Yeah, do you know? But I also think, and again, not making excuses for your dad's behaviour towards you, but he's also a product of his environment and what happened to him. 100% why you'd be forgiven to him if you wouldn't if you have the understanding of he did this to me because it likely happened to him, but it was how he was do you know what I mean? Can I just quickly go talk about that?

SPEAKER_01: 31:58

Yeah, yeah. So my father, his father died when he was 17, 18. He was married to my mum, yeah. And what what my mum's brother did is take my dad's sister. Okay, yeah. That at the time, 50 years ago in Pakistan was like committing suicide. Wow. And it broke our two families apart. My dad felt compelled and had no other choice but to leave my mum. Yeah, and she begged him. Yeah. And at the time we were there's only three, there were three of us, three brothers. Uh, but he says, Look, they've taken one of us. Yeah, how can I keep you? Okay. So it was a kind of uh um, you know, the honour thing that kind of kicked in.

SPEAKER_03: 32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 32:51

You know what I mean? So now this man, this 18, 19-year-old man, yeah has just and at the same time he's left with the burden to look after his siblings. And there's about six of them.

SPEAKER_03: 33:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:04

You know what I mean? Yeah. What I in just recently before he passed away, we were I was sat down and he was quite ill, and I used to rub him with uh cream and uh and uh uh you know, and um uh my sister was on the phone and she was at the doctor's and she said, Um, Dad, what cream is it? And he pointed towards me and went, What cream is it? I panicked because of of my trauma. Yeah, it was how he dealt with me. And I went, what, what, what, what freaking cream, what, what, what, what? He goes, A freaking cream, because he was on the phone kind of thing, yeah. And now that triggers something off. Then it hit me. Shit. Yeah. This is then I sat down to him and I said, you know what? I've been getting therapy for this.

SPEAKER_03: 33:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:46

I said, You have traumatized me.

SPEAKER_03: 33:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 33:49

To the point now, I go on the defense. If anyone talks to me in a funny way, I what? What did you say? Fucking come on then.

SPEAKER_05: 33:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Confrontation, confrontation.

SPEAKER_01: 33:59

Because I was the way you treated me, yeah, and you battered me, yeah, I have become this person. And then it then it kind of dawned on me. And when I sent, I'm I said, when I said I got I'm getting therapy of you, he sunk.

unknown: 34:13

I thought shit.

SPEAKER_01: 34:15

And I went upstairs, I did my prayers, you know, five times the prayers. I come back down and he he went, Oh my life, I've over all I've ever done is try to support you, and I was your I'm your father. And he was absolutely heartbroken.

SPEAKER_05: 34:30

So he didn't even realise how bad he'd sort of messed you up.

SPEAKER_01: 34:33

No, but here's the thing to that look what I did. I said, Let me tell you a story. There was a man, then I gave his story to him. Oh god, I turned it. I don't know, Taz. He's a better man here. Then I then I saw his story, then I played his story back to him through my mouth. That's when he realized that's the first time I saw a father look at his son in them loving eyes. I said, here was a man who went through this, didn't know which way to turn, has landed in an alien country, yeah, and he doesn't know what the hell he's doing, and the only way he could regulate his emotion is through anger. I said, What is that man going through? And then he realized I was talking about him. You know what I mean? And that was the turning point in our relationship, and it was only just recently before he passed away. But you know what? He kind of he seen me for who I was, he saw my potential, he saw me destroy myself over and over again, he tried to put me in rehabs, I was in rehabs twice, three times in Pakistan. He helped me, yeah, and he knew deep down there's decency inside this person, and he never gave up on me. And everyone else gave up on me. The way he did it may not be or could be questionable, you know, to say the least, kind of thing, but his intentions were pure and honourable, and I can't take that away from him, no matter how I feel, yeah. And no matter what people say, kind of thing. Do you get what I'm trying to say?

SPEAKER_05: 36:22

I do, yeah, I do, I do get it. Yeah, it's obviously there's a clash of cultures as well in the in in this sense as well. Like I mean, this is why we have these podcasts, this is why we have these conversations. I I everything you're saying to me, it makes sense, yeah, but I'll never fully understand it. No. But to you, yeah, you will because this is your life and this is your culture, yeah. And that's why it's interesting to hear. Don't get me wrong. I I think honestly, if you was a I say, if you were a white British, like telling a similar story about the abuse that you went through as a child, I guarantee you wouldn't be speaking about your father in a and with any positivity. You just wouldn't. And I think that's a that's a maybe a big cultural difference between the two.

SPEAKER_01: 37:00

So yeah, yeah, you know, you there is a sense of that you're right. I just want to tell you the end story about my father. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he developed stage four cancer. So, you know, he was every time I was in jail, he would big me up. My sisters, my sister. You know, him, he's a legend. This is what he would say. When I'd be in front of him, it'd be down my throat. My siblings, my sisters, and my brothers said he idolizes you, yeah. But he couldn't tell me.

SPEAKER_05: 37:34

I the I remember is that is that a pro is that a proud man-to-man thing that he couldn't he just couldn't do it?

SPEAKER_01: 37:39

Couldn't. Wow, he couldn't, he couldn't admit it because every time I saw him, he saw his own reflection. Okay, and every time I saw I mean he saw me, and it was vice versa. I remember the last time I came out of jail about four years ago, and he was quite ill. And uh he he was almost like that. And I when I come out, I looked at him, and when I looked at him into his eyes, he looked at me within a matter of days, he was upright. My sisters said, What have you done to him? He's been on tablets, he's been done. This is he's he's he's he's you know what I mean. But he the the thing is when he developed stage stage for concept on his deathbed, he gathered my siblings and I've got it recorded. Yeah, yeah. He said, This man, this is what I wanted from him. All your life, all my life, yeah, and he gave it to me to what and he didn't give it to me, it was abundant. He said, This guy, he says, This guy is that guy where he's reached in his life right now, no man could achieve that. Yeah, what he has done for his family, no man could have done. Yeah, you are here to my siblings because of this man. I have been dancing, this these were his his words. I have been dancing on him because I knew I had a brave, brave son, so I was relaxed. And oh my god, I was crying my eyes out. I don't I get it. All I wanted was I used to say to him, I said, Why don't you ever tap me on the back, dad? You know what I mean? A little well done. Little well done. Why? I did this was as I was growing up, you know why it's answerable? Because if I ever tap you on the back, you'll end up freaking killing someone. In the sense that you'd be you'd be so fully charged, you know what I mean, that you'd do you'd do anything. I had that side to me.

SPEAKER_05: 39:36

Yeah, do you get what I'm trying to say? Yeah, so it's almost like you know, I guess in some way, trying to hold you back in a little bit. This is what it did.

SPEAKER_01: 39:44

He had his hand out, don't not yet, I'm here. And many times I was in conflict with him, but look what they're doing. Just stay back. You don't need it yet. You know what I mean? And and and I remember it when I'd come home and say, Where the hell have you been? It took me 30 years to understand his language. What he was was actually saying, Where are you, son? Yeah I missed you. Sit down. I remember him towards the end, you know, I was eating. I was just about to eat, and he said to me, and out of disgust or whatever's going on, I dropped it and I and I walked off. I walked it back to dormant I was that pissed off. Yeah, he was on the phone. What have you gone? What have you done that for? I thought, you know what? I said, nothing, you know, me, I said I get like that. He goes, you know, there's nothing wrong with him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 40:37

We had that relationship, you know what I mean? And uh he was worried about you without directly telling you I'm worried about you. Yes, he couldn't say it.

SPEAKER_01: 40:44

Yeah, yeah, he had to play this play this role of the strong man because he saw that in me. And you know what I mean? And and and every time I got into a fight, and you know what?

unknown: 40:55

He was proud.

SPEAKER_05: 40:57

Not that not that it's a thing, but not that he's proud of you fighting, but he's proud that you, you know, you're standing up for yourself. I mean, obviously, he he would have he would have seen some of the stuff you went through as a kid. Yeah. The stuff that we've already talked about, the stuff you've experienced, he'd have seen that. 100%. I suppose maybe one of his fears was you growing up to be I don't know, a bit of a bitch, sort of thing. Do you know what I mean? He wanted you to be a he wanted you to be strong and wanted to look after yourself. Yeah. I guess I I I I get it. I mean, obviously, I just want to go back to the arranged marriage thing. Because obviously that seemed like a massive catalyst for it. So when did because you've got you mentioned you've got a daughter. How many children do you have? Five children. You've got five children. From the arranged marriage?

SPEAKER_01: 41:32

From the arranged marriage. Okay, talk to me about this then. Wow. I'm 18 years old. Yeah, I'm all over the freaking show. I was working with my dad at a takeaway, and he says, I says, Look, I need a break. My wages used to go to him. He says, you know what? Because that was the thing kind of thing. We, you know, we give our wages to our fathers and he'd do what's best for us and whatnot, and all the rest of it. And he says, I said, Look, I need a holiday. He says, You want to go for a holiday? You go Pakistan and get married. I'm thinking in the back of my head, this is not gonna happen. For me, it's an holiday. Yeah, so I'm over now with him. He's what he's done, he's bought me a Kawasaki, one, two, five. You know, I'm chilling, I'm loving it, and all the rest of it. Feels like a holiday so far, sort of thing. So far, so good, kind of thing. All of a sudden, he's come back one evening and uh he says, Oh, by the way, I found your wife and you are getting married on a particular day. What? Married? Who are you going on about? I said, Who is she? And and I've chosen her, she's perfect for you, and uh, you're getting married. I said, if you've chosen her, why don't you marry her? Yeah, yeah. And this so this is what he did. Now, this is what he did for for whatever his reasons, and he says, Look, and he did have a point, I do understand, but it was wrong. I don't agree with it. He came to me and he says, You know what? He says, if you do this now, if you don't do this, my brothers out there, yeah, have a lot of respect for me. I'm like a father figure to him, yeah. Not to mention the the the the family that we've gave our word to, yeah. You're gonna ruin me.

SPEAKER_05: 43:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 43:15

It left me with them thoughts. I was like, shit, I can't do this to him. Yeah, I can't do it to him. You know what? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Massive, massive guilt trip. And I thought, you know what, shit, Taz, you know what, you're gonna go through this. The first time I saw my wife was when she was sat next to me getting married. And for you know what I mean? I had high expectations. I looked at her, I thought, what the fuck have they done to me? I swear to God, I am not lying to you. And she's the mother that my children, and I'll tell you another thing about her as well. A great woman. Yeah, great woman.

SPEAKER_05: 44:01

I could not ask for a better better mother, and that's what your dad would have looked for. He's not necessarily looking for a you know 10 out of 10 page three model for you, is it? He's looking up for a good woman who's gonna be a good mother of your children.

SPEAKER_01: 44:12

But the thing was it kind of it could I rebelled against it, and I looked at it and I thought, what the fuck have they done here? Yeah, you know what I mean? And that was my turning point. That was that that that kind of spiraled out of control.

SPEAKER_05: 44:27

See, I think for from for me, a lot of a lot of what I get from this story is a lack of control, a lack of control over your mind culturally, a lack of control over. No, from yeah, in just in general, you just I've I had no control. That's what I mean. Yeah, no control over control. Lack of control in terms of in terms of the life you've lived even up to that point. And then more so because you're in an arranged marriage.

SPEAKER_01: 44:49

Yeah. And then and and then because and then obviously she came over, whatnot, and one thing led to another, for the first child, whatnot, you know what I mean? What a house. And then it started. I thought, shit, I can't do this. So what did I do? Turn to the drugs. I turned to the drugs, I turned to the heroine, and and the thing I was in conflict. The thing was, which is extremely important to me, and I need to it needs to be heard, is I don't know how many times I wanted to walk out. Yeah. The only thing that kept stopping me was my old childhood. I thought, shit. Look what you went through as a child. No mother. I used to look at people's mother and I used to think, does this is this how a mother is going to be? Is this what a mother is like? It's a dream and fantasise about a mother figure. And um I thought, if I walk away now, by that time there are two little boys, you know, grown fine men now, you know what I mean? And one of them's actually fighting on Saturday.

SPEAKER_05: 45:54

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_01: 45:54

Yeah, and I'm going down, I'm gonna be in this corner. And I used to look at them and thought, I can't put them through what I went through. It's like history repeating itself. That's it, yeah. Kind of what happened to your dad from his dad, and so forth. I had to break the mold, so what I did, I suffered. You know what? I thought I'd take it. And then before you know it, those five kids, by this time, I was a freaking mess. A complete emotional wreck. You know what I mean? A walk-in time bomb. You say, look at me in a funny way. I remember walking walking down the street once, and some guy looked at me, so what the fuck are you looking at? We ended up fighting in the middle of the street, and afterwards, I had a good friend of mine, by the way, a Scottish fellow called Jodie. He went, What the fuck are we fighting for? I said, I ain't got a fucking clue, mate. We began that's how volatile my head became. Do you know what I mean? This is this this is what I I I went through, and it was wow. And so, you know, I I I I couldn't I couldn't do that to him. How many boys do you have?

SPEAKER_05: 47:01

I have three boys. How does how does your relationship with your boys compare to the relationship that you had with your dad?

SPEAKER_01: 47:08

Here's the thing with that. So when my kids were growing up, yeah, I thought, you know what, I'm never gonna do what my dad did. Guess what I did? Same thing. Exactly the same thing. I remember once hitting my son, I think it was about 14, 15, and he he he was another copy of me. He wouldn't cry. I thought he was fucking taking the little paces, crap, crap, crap, crap, crap. I went upstairs and I took his top off and he had bruises. And then he hit me. You fucking idiot. Yeah, you've turned into your dad. Yeah. And I remember my kids coming home from school and saying, Dad, look at I gotta see you and I gotta be. And I said, Come here, give us a hug. Cause I never got it.

SPEAKER_02: 47:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 47:53

Do you know what I mean? So I tried the best I could, but when I saw that, that what I had become, I thought, never again. Yeah, I'm not doing that to him again. Cause it's it's doing exactly the same thing. But my son, where they are now, we're men. You know, and what my dad I couldn't have with my dad, my son's have with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 48:16

And they're getting at an earlier age. You got it from your dad on his deathbed, sort of thing. Do you know what I mean? I'm giving it to him now. You're giving it to him now.

SPEAKER_01: 48:22

I'm saying, you know what? I'm your best mate, I'm your best mate. And a lot of people actually, you know, some of the things that they've done, uh a lot of people don't agree with. And the thing is with me, okay, damage limitation. If they do something wrong now, as a father, I can advise them because they're grown men. I can't get involved. Yeah. They are living their own lives and they need to learn themselves. Do you understand? I can't get a bloody bat and start battering them and uh and shouting at them, and uh and that doesn't work. It didn't work for me. Yeah, how's it gonna work for my sons? How is it?

SPEAKER_05: 48:57

So yeah. So you've experienced prison. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that. Being, you know, you mentioned it, being in and out of prison. Yeah. That sort of impact that has on your family.

SPEAKER_01: 49:10

Oh, it's horrible. Talk talk me talk me through it. So in the beginning, I I I didn't know as far as I was complained, uh concerned, I was playing the victim here. You know what I mean? Screw the family. I didn't know, I didn't understand the concept of them going through what they're going through while I'm in jail, kind of thing. It was oh you know, I'm back in prison and you know, feeling sorry for myself. I need to pick myself up and blah de blah and all the rest of it. Not realizing that they are going through a they're going through a prison sentence in itself.

SPEAKER_05: 49:37

Yeah, I think addiction makes it makes you very selfish, doesn't it? Really, you can't really see outwards, it's just this constantly looking inwards that you do. Poor me. That's it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 49:46

Yeah, poor me, and you know, and my daughter did mention it, and she says, Poor you, this is what you've been doing. I said, and and she was she was right. This is what I'd been doing for years. Yeah, look at me, you don't know what I went through, you know, and all that crap.

SPEAKER_05: 49:58

Not thinking about what they went through.

SPEAKER_01: 50:00

And and and then she said it not long ago. She said, Do you know how painful it was? She's she's done psychology now, and and there's there's a lot going on here right now. My still, because of what happened, I need to go back to the and I went back to the prison as well, and it all kind of fit in into the jigsaw kind of thing. And so while that was going on, what my father got remarried, we had he had six six daughters. Okay, he was desperate for a son. From the first, he tried and tried and tried, and each time it was a girl. And I started giggling after a while because I could clicked onto it, and I'd be it'd go go hospitate in them days. You go to the phone box, ring the hospital up, and find out. Didn't even go to the freaking hospital. So I'd come back on the fourth child knowing he'd be pissed off. Oh, congratulations, the girl. He went, you fucking prick girl.

SPEAKER_00: 50:52

But it was almost comical. By the sixth time, you're like, oh fuck, you think someone wanted him up, don't they? It was brilliant. He's fucking, oh god, it was just looking at his face was just oh it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01: 51:07

It was priceless, you know what I mean? Uh and my grand did say, God rest us all. She went, Manzuah, you're not gonna have any sons. Uh uh sons, you've got three sons. And and you know, it was kind of poetic to be honest with you. And so here's the thing now, these six girls are growing up, my sisters. What am I thinking? My childhood and why my mum left me. Because of two people doing a dirty. So, what am I gonna have done? I became this over-protective fucking psychopath. If I catch you with anyone, I'll fucking kill you. Yeah. So I would smoke weed in the middle of the night and do if a car pulled up with the lads, lads in it, what the f are you doing around here? Get around your own end. I became over-protective, yeah, and I panicked. And and this went on for a while, and they were terrified of me. They were terrified of me, and I would have done it. I was that far gone, I would have done it. And I thank God that I didn't do something though that stupid that would have been you know I'd been regretting for the rest of my life. Yeah, but I didn't understand what was going on with me. I was scared. I thought, no, six, I'm loving with six. What the fuck am I supposed to look after these? It's almost talking to God kind of thing. Uh so then I started this, you know, like, okay, overprotective. And how many times have I gone into town centres yet and they've been they've gone out of the house with the scarves on and they've gone into town took the scarves off? They're teenagers, they were they they were spreading the wings, of course they're gonna do that. And as soon as I seen it, get home. At one point, my dad was saying, Stop doing the fucking dad, leave that to me. You know what I mean? I sort of went through that phase, but when my own daughter came about, I thought, shit, I can't lie like this. She'll hate me. So I had to change. I had to change, and I had to become this other person, I had to become this father, and I had I had my kind of things. Anyway, getting back to the jail and whatnot, and so the jail was honest to God, to be honest with you, it's made me the person I am today. Because every time I went into jail, I got better. Yeah, I got better, I got stronger emotionally, physically, you know what I mean, and and I became the person that I've always wanted to be. I won't touch drugs. Maybe the first few times I went in, you know, under my day, maybe a split here and there. Yeah. But it was just a case of because the lads are doing it kind of thing. When I got my big sentences for four and a four, I think uh seven years I did back to back with it with it with a period of six months free time, I I I I became strong. And uh so yeah, my prayers and my training focused one thing I couldn't understand. Why do I go back out and become this drug addict again? And as soon as I come back in jail, like and and the and the and the page got shorter and shorter and shorter. I'd have more long time inside, and I'd I'd I'd I'd hit rock bottom very, very quickly. Very, very quickly. But there was a patent developing, and I wonder it hit me. I've got to leave the mother of my children. She was the trigger. Okay, yeah. She was the trigger. Yeah. And it almost, you know, it was, you know, it was, oh god. I thought, shit. Every time I'm in jail, I'm okay. If I'm a if I am that way inclined, there's drugs in jail. Yeah. What's going on? So what's happening when you're outside? And I I was questioning myself on what was behind this, and then it hit me. I've got I've got a I've got to get I've got to I've got to break, I've got to break the umbilical code of this arranged marriage if I want peace in my life.

SPEAKER_05: 55:10

And was it because of her as an individual? Was it anything she was doing, or was it just the fact that, as we've said earlier on, that lack of control and being forced into that marriage, the resentment that I just built up from that?

SPEAKER_01: 55:21

That as well, but more more so culture. Okay, yeah. It was culture because she was from a different world.

SPEAKER_05: 55:28

So she was very much still in the sort of Muslim Pakistani world of culturalism, and you were very okay, and you're very westernized, westernised and have a little bit of that side as well.

SPEAKER_01: 55:39

So, you know, we were we were always in conflict, always in conflict. There were moments which were beautiful, no doubt. Oh man, for 20 odd years, you know what I mean? So something was something there, obviously. Of course, of course it was, but for the most part, yeah, it was horrendous. It was horrendous. And I'm not I'm not gonna sit in and sugarcoat it. I there was a few times when I clout it. That was wrong. If someone did that to my daughter, I'd fucking rip his head off. I'd rip his head off. Somebody posed a question, and I need to get this out today, uh, because somebody posed a question about Muslims that we're allowed to marry more than uh one wife, kind of thing. And somebody said to me, I don't mention no names, what if it was your daughter? I'm not answering that person, but I'm gonna answer it today on the podcast. I would our our faith allows it. And if it was my daughter today, yeah, as long as you can support both wives, yeah, and treat them equally, then yes, of course it's allowed. Even if it's my daughter, because for me, for me it's faith. That's the bottom line. You know what I mean? It's how we interpret it, yeah, kind of messes everything up kind of thing. Anyway, I don't know why I'm talking about that. That's a toy. No, no, no, I get it though.

SPEAKER_05: 57:05

These are the things we're exploring today, those sort of cultural differences, aren't we? Really? Do you know? And again, it it I suppose when people are asking you those questions, it's because from their culture it is very much one woman.

SPEAKER_01: 57:17

But this is what we do as British, Muslim, subcontinent, India where we come from, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, and Indians, Muslim. What do we do? We mix culture with religion. And nine times out of ten, yeah, it's culture that always gets it wrong. Okay, yeah. And we use it as religion.

SPEAKER_03: 57:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 57:42

Our religion, Islam, does not allow forced marriages. Okay, yeah. But condemns it. Yeah. It actually condemns it. And these are the things I'm learning. I've learned. But culture. Oh, you're getting married to and you know, it's not allowed. Islamically, it's not allowed. So that I kind of uh, you know, and then getting back to jail, you know what I mean? I I I became this guy, and you know, I you know, I I honest to God, some of the best days of my freaking life in jail. I'm not gonna lie to you, because I you know, I denied that.

SPEAKER_05: 58:21

Well you you found recovery in jail, didn't you? I found recovery in jail. Taught me through that then. Founding recovery in in prison, and and how did it out again, like you said, you split the umbilical cords, so to speak, from from the wife. How did that look, getting recovery in jail and then continuing the abstinence in the community?

SPEAKER_01: 58:37

So I started to learn about in jail, I started learning about my addiction. You know, I started attending groups and uh, you know, and I I was involved with a drug team, a spectrum at the time, really, really beautiful people. And you know, I I I I needed to get better. So I was exploring everything. And when this was put towards me kind of thing, you know what I mean? I thought, oh wow, is that what is this is this what's going on with me? Okay, let's have a bit of this. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? You know, because for me, I I need it, I need to get better, whichever way I can. And so that kind of led me to uh, you know, you know, exploring the NA and then the 12-step program and and all the you know the therapeutic side and the cognitive, you know, you know, the the the group work that they did before long, I I became a mentor. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? And I I was really, really enjoying it kind of thing because it was unraveling me.

SPEAKER_05: 59:35

And by unraveling experiences, yeah, of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 59:39

And I thought, wow, this is this is that and that and uh about uh ten years ago I thought, you know what, I could do this. I seen other people in recovery, yeah, and they are where I am today, and I I'd look at them and think, you know what? If he's done it or if she's done it, why can't I do it? So that was the kind of drive. Yeah. Kind of thing, you know, for me, uh you know what I mean. And it's it's funny because one of my friends, Mr. Jackson, lovely man, he says, you know what, you've got a lot to give, but you need to be educated on recovery and what it means, kind of thing. So I went through the whole kind of process. Uh I did the 12-step programme. You know, I uh uh you know, I don't uh attend any meetings as regularly as I should, kind of thing. It's not you know, and I'm not I'm not I'm not gonna preach about it kind of thing, or some people swear it as gospel, you know, kind of kind of thing. For me, it's you know, I found other ways of channeling it kind of thing, but I do totally understand and appreciate it because it works for people kind of thing.

SPEAKER_05: 1:00:43

I think one of the things I've learned from doing this series is recovery isn't just going to meetings. No, it's about the thing you put into it. So yeah, regardless whether you're going to meetings regular or not, as long as what you're putting that you've you know, the things that you learn into practice, yeah, then that's enough. And I think it for me, if I was in in a similar position, it'd be just knowing that safety net is there, that if I need it, if I do need the meeting, if I do need to talk to another team of recovery, it's there when I need it. And I think that would be my attitude towards that.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:10

Yeah, and that's exactly my attitude. Yeah, exactly my attitude. I don't I don't say that it's not for me. No, no, it's another tool, as far as I'm concerned. And anything for recovery is is is a positive and is a good thing. I'm never gonna knock it, no matter what what it is. Me being here today talking to you, you know what I mean, is part of that recovery. Absolutely, yeah. This is this is what this this is it.

SPEAKER_05: 1:01:32

Yeah, but in terms of you know, obviously getting getting clean in the prison, was there a moment like the light bulb moment of right, I've got I've got to do it now? Yeah, or was it because to me it kind of sounds like a gradual thing that you can do? It was a gradual thing, yeah. It was yeah, that's yeah, good to work that. Yeah, it was it was some people have that no fuck, I've got to do it now, do you know?

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:49

No, no, no. It was a gradual thing, and it kind of crept up on me, kind of thing, and and and the work that I'm doing right now kind of you know, like I think, you know, I was looking back, I think, you know what? This is this is me. So I couldn't figure out what was the purpose of me going through what I've gone through. What was it all about? Yeah, why did I go through freaking hell? And I thought that's what it is, it's for you to give it back, it doesn't belong to you. It doesn't, you know, you weren't meant to own this. Yeah, you had to go through that to pass the message on. I believe that. Yeah, yeah. I genuinely believe that, and and and I bet you know, and for me, it's you know, it's I used to ask myself, why are you this was a constant question to God, why are you putting me through this when I'd be rattling or in the gutter? What have I done that's so horrendous in life, or what am I going to do that is so horrendous in life that you're putting me through this? That was a question. I get it now because for me here to talk today about recovery, about look, there is a way out and there is hope. And that my dad used to say to me, he said, two things will happen to you either you'll be dead or you'll spend the rest of your life in jail. I'm here and I'm not in jail. Yeah, so it's working.

SPEAKER_05: 1:03:16

There was a there was a third option there that didn't tell you.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:19

So this is the thing with my dad as well, he was very clever, very, very clever. He he'd say, You can't do this. Yeah, they'll reverse psychology.

SPEAKER_00: 1:03:27

So you're too weak to do all that, and fucking no, I'd go out and fucking do it.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:32

You know what I mean? So it kind of went and it kind of worked, you know what I mean? And I I've gotta I've gotta I've gotta tell the world, my dad, what a fucking legend. Honest to God, he was a legend, he was a legend, what a man, honest to God. He's he's put me on a pedal stool that nothing and no one can take me off. And I've been waiting for that for the for the god knows how long. That's why I am quite I get it, yeah.

SPEAKER_05: 1:04:00

I think now that you're in recovery, so obviously there's there's a lot of personal transformation that you've gone through over this journey. So now, how do you see yourself as not just as a man but as a Muslim and as someone who has lived through violence?

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:16

What a beautiful I'm getting my hands are standing up, and this is this is this is this is the I'm gonna say this to you, uh Matt. This is why I'm here. Everything has come full circle. Yeah. Everything my religion, my recovery, my culture, my upbringing, everything has come and I've got it in my hand. That's my power. Yeah, and I will use it to the best of my abilities to each and every one. You know what I mean? If God, you know what I mean? I'm loaded. Yeah, I'm fully loaded. And there's nothing that you can put towards me and I can say, you know what? No, mate, let's try it this way, let's try it that way. Because when you've been through that much in life, nothing's gonna deter you. No, no. No matter who comes in, sits in front of you and says, Oh, blah, blah, blah. This no, mate, no. Compassion, kindness, understanding where they are and where they where they're going, not being big-headed, humility, these are the things that have that have kind of got kind of lost.

SPEAKER_05: 1:05:27

No, no, no, no, no. You're no, you're bang on the money, really. It's it's exactly it. I mean, realistically, I suppose now, because there'll there will be people, you know, maybe from from from that culture that don't necessarily have someone that they can look at and talk to and understand. What message would you send to to young Muslim men who are struggling with addiction or who are as angry as you once were?

SPEAKER_01: 1:05:53

Honestly, I I don't want to I I've got a message for them, but I I don't want to uh limit myself to just Muslim young men and women. I want to reach out to the rest of the bloody the whole world. Yeah, I get that, yeah. Do you get me? It's not just about Muslim men and young women, it's about anybody and everybody who is going through hell and and you know, and going through addiction. And and and and the message is simple. Keep fighting. Yeah, don't give up. You know, you will find your calling, you will find your peace, you will find, you will find that moment. Do not give up because I know, I know I'm many friends, many associates, should I say, who have OD'd, who have died, you know what I mean. I I've OD'd on several occasions and I was brought back, kind of thing. And you think there was a purpose to that? And there was a purpose to that, you know what I mean? So please, please, my message is please do not give up. And so sometimes you there's no other option. You feel as though there's no other option, but there's always a way. I won't be here talking to you today if there it if there wasn't hope. Because I was that person who, you know, I went out once, I was I became so desperate, I bought a quarter of heroin, I said, I'm gonna inject myself, I'm gonna die today. And I I was I was gonna do it. Long be all I couldn't find a needle that day. I went everywhere, could not, in the end, and I had to freaking put it on the foil. But there was a reason why you couldn't find the needle that day. Yeah, there was a reason why I couldn't find a needle. I was I was I was gonna do it that day. Other days I I've took overdoses with pills and whatnot because I'd had enough. I gave up that many times. Every time I fell, I give up, and I've fallen over a thousand times. I'm no big man in reality. Yeah, I crumbled at every stage. You know what I mean? And and I I'll own up to that. What people might say, oh, you're this and that. No, mate, I failed miserably every time.

SPEAKER_05: 1:08:11

Yeah, people only often see the success, don't they? They don't see the failure behind what got to the success. Yeah. Um I appreciate that, Taz, and thank you for coming on the Believe in People podcast. Yeah. I like to end all my podcasts with a series of ten random questions, completely irrelevant to anything that we've spoken about so far. And uh my first question is what is your favourite word? Peace. Least favourite words hate. Sound or noise do you love? Rain. Sound or noise do you hate? Yapping. Yapping. What's your favourite curse word? Curse word. Yeah, swear word. You dropped a few today.

SPEAKER_01: 1:08:55

Um, I don't know, I've got quite a few actually. Pick one. Pick one. You know what? Oh piss off.

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:07

It's universal and it is exactly what it means. If you could do any job in the world, uh what would it be? This, what I'm doing right now. You don't know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:09:20

What's the worst job you can imagine doing? Oh god. Living a 95 mundane robotic job, yeah, with no purpose and no frickin' end, that majority of the world are doing. No freaking chance, you keep that. Tell me something that excites you.

SPEAKER_05: 1:09:39

Life every day, getting up. Tell me something that doesn't excite you. Boring people. And then lastly, obviously a bit of a different one for you, but we we often ask uh, once you die, what would you like to hear God say when you're arrived at the Pearley gates? Oh wow, that's a that's a good one. Son, well done. Yeah, you did your bit. Brilliant. Thank you very much for joining me on Believe in People test. Thank you. Thank you. And if you've enjoyed this episode of the Believe in People Podcast, we'd love for you to share it with others who might find it meaningful. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode. Leaving a review will help us reach more people and continue challenging stigma around addiction and recovery. For additional resources, insights and updates, explore the links in this episode description. And to learn more about our mission and hear more incredible stories, you can visit us directly at believinpeoplepodcast.com.